Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Shadenuat]

Finished Ch. 1 on Unfair in TB mode with stock companions. The zombie fight near Staglord fort was

Regongar in TB is the most powerful stock companion you get early for sure.

Compared to RTwP, TB feels even more loaded into offence. You can easily dispatch enemies and kite them. Also having enough AC for enemies to miss 50-60% of the time and some HP can easily push you through encounters; since it is so easy to deny enemies Full Attacks, your defence matters very little, just go full cc/damage/mobility. Enemy archers are the only ones who get full attacks more often. Difficult Terrain (like level 1 Entangle) shuts down enemies hard as they cannot make more than 1 attack on you unless they're within 5 ft.

Basically you only need to survive first turn; then enemies are yours.
Cleave and enlarge, weapons with high dice damage and reach are kings (similar to AOEing bugbears in ToEE with enlarged holy lance wielding Cleaver).
Barbs with Pounce are probably brutal as well.

All that action management, kiting, pushing with charge and pulling back, 5 ft stepping and all that precision gameplay and movement is very rewarding. Also even despite stat bloat system is lethal, which makes killing monsters quick and fun... inside a single encounter, of course.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

Regongar in TB is the most powerful stock companion you get early for sure.

I'm playing in TB with a magus charname right now. It's definitely pretty strong, and far more fun since the inherent micro in the class is a huge pain in RTwP but isn't a problem in TB.

 

[Cryomancer]

Only i an having an really hard time against Spawn of Rovagug??? His domination seens to be able to bypass resist...

 

[Ruchy]

Oleg's trading post is now broken for me, cannot enter without crashing to main menu with an error about natural weapons slots not assigned or some such nonsense. Have logged bug but is very frustrating as I need to see Bokken and buy the Onslaught piece from that snivelling wretch Oleg.

 

[ArchAngel]

Oleg's trading post is now broken for me, cannot enter without crashing to main menu with an error about natural weapons slots not assigned or some such nonsense. Have logged bug but is very frustrating as I need to see Bokken and buy the Onslaught piece from that snivelling wretch Oleg.

If you have it on Steam you can try to verify install. But you might need to reinstall mods you are using if you do.

 

[Ruchy]

Oleg's trading post is now broken for me, cannot enter without crashing to main menu with an error about natural weapons slots not assigned or some such nonsense. Have logged bug but is very frustrating as I need to see Bokken and buy the Onslaught piece from that snivelling wretch Oleg.

If you have it on Steam you can try to verify install. But you might need to reinstall mods you are using if you do.

Yeah tried that to no avail, I imagine I shall just have to start again... again.

 

[Shadenuat]

Ugh, Haste turns TB action management into a bad joke. Should be single target spell. Mass version should be like 6th level spell.

 

[Sergiu64]

Ugh, Haste turns TB action management into a bad joke. Should be single target spell. Mass version should be like 6th level spell.

Meh, there are so many ways to break Pathfinder - its silly to concentrate on a single spell. Besides - when you run into Level 18 Owlbears with 250+ hp and 34 Strength while your party is level 7 - haste will not be enough anyway.

 

[deuxhero]

Ugh, Haste turns TB action management into a bad joke. Should be single target spell. Mass version should be like 6th level spell.

Haste is actually worse than Slow without prebuffing. Haste slightly boosts the offense of your weapon attacks. Slow destroys the offense and defense of the enemy.

 

[Riel]

Ugh, Haste turns TB action management into a bad joke. Should be single target spell. Mass version should be like 6th level spell.

Haste is actually worse than Slow without prebuffing. Haste slightly boosts the offense of your weapon attacks. Slow destroys the offense and defense of the enemy.

But Haste is guaranteed to work, enemy can save against Slow and mobs have bloated saves in this game.

As a general statement: I found mages to be useful but the most underwhelming of any D&D game ever, this is also my first contact with Pathfinder ruleset which I expect to be a part of it, but enemies in this game have ridiculously high stats which certainly doesn't help spells that have saves -> most spells. At any rate when it came to DPS a simple two hander warrior was both reliable and competitive, meanwhile thieves and mages were easily countered.

 

[Haplo]

I must say Arcane casters are extremely potent here. Even for simple damage dealing, though Arcane Tricksters are clearly kings here and in general mages are capable of much more.

Martial characters can pump huge damage without breaking a sweat, but an AT can do it also - in a huge aoe, bypassing relevant defenses.

 

[Shadenuat]

when you run into Level 18 Owlbears with 250+ hp and 34 Strength while your party is level 7 - haste will not be enough anyway.

somewhat fair although said owlbearz have shit will > cacophonous call. First time I killed them I was leve 8 or so.
5th level Regongar can already do 100 damage crits (weapon + spell)

Haste is actually worse than Slow without prebuffing. Haste slightly boosts the offense of your weapon attacks. Slow destroys the offense and defense of the enemy.

theoretics

By slightly you mean double damage: +1 extra attack at full bab on level where most classes have only 1 attack + 1 AB & AC

Slow = level 1 entangle + Haste, you deny them Full Attacks, so unless they're barbarians or leopards they will mostly make 1 attack (against your 40 ac pet) while you using reach do 2-3
haste gives you +30 move on everyone. you can kite around anything. you can move close in TB mode, unload your attacks/spells and troll back no problemo.

As a general statement: I found mages to be useful but the most underwhelming of any D&D game ever

Need to getgut modron. Even on highest difficulty you can CC enemies very strong and also do damage.

 

[Riel]

I must say Arcane casters are extremely potent here. Even for simple damage dealing, though Arcane Tricksters are clearly kings here and in general mages are capable of much more.

Martial characters can pump huge damage without breaking a sweat, but an AT can do it also - in a huge aoe, bypassing relevant defenses.

My first play through was with an AT, yes when by the end of the game you start being able to sneak attack with fireballs it became an asset, but:

1: It wasn't Overpowered in the slightest, just solid, you chose either deal 60ish damage to everything in the 1st turn of battle or making around 150 with a two hander to a single target every single turn, ok you can make it two with a rod or metamagic but then "ammo" goes away fast...
2: Before being able to add sneak damage to fireball there was a long period of time were fireball was mostly useless against worthy foes.

 

[Shadenuat]

Fireball was never useless, what is this

60 damage? sounds weak, Chain Lightning with Sneak should do 150+ and that's not the biggest hit you can get.
Heck, Tristian can do 150 damage with empowered Firestorm.

Then again, even if Fireball is not so great, so what? Shutting down every enemy on the field with CC and buffing party to supergods is not enough?

Also i wonder what chance of CC people consider "good". Even on Unfair enemies have often ~50% to fail their low saves even against spells you do not have spell focus in (which is why my 1st level slots are usually stuffed with grease & color spray). With spell focus and high stats you can push it to 70% or even higher if you debuff them. The difference between saves can be massive - troll can have +20 fortitude, but something like +5 or +8 will. Unless they rage which gives them a bonus.

I just fought some unfair Boggards and they have reflex +8 (dex +5, lightning reflexes +2). My 1st level Grease without spell focus or anything has DC of 17 so half of them failed against it in first round. In my book 50% against level ~8 monsters with level 1 spell is pretty great.

As for fighters being reliable source of single target damage... is it a problem? Should wizards do same damage and as reliably and left clicky? Why should they?

System is already heavily skewed towards casters and arcane magic, at least leave poor fighters their attacks per round.

 

[Cryomancer]

Shadenuat, Kineticist IMO can do much more damage than any caster and they aren't restricted by "spell slots". Magma deadly earth for eg has an better area of effect(AOE) damage over time(DOT) and crowd control ability(difficulty terrain) than any spell that i saw. Casters only are amazing on his non direct damage dealing. Aka buffing, debuffing, summoning, healing, dealing damage to attributes, etc. Polar Midnight + Deadly earth magma with some pushing "powers" or spells can trivialize most late game encounters. Wild hunt that in my first run was an pain in the ****, forced me to abandon my "3 party member" run and go full party, now i can easily kill then in few rounds with an mercenary kineticist and an mercenary cleric.

 

[Shadenuat]

Kineticists also do about nothing for most of the game. They provide some stable touch damage (awesome) but so do Alchemists, Magii and anyone with big stick paired to Wizard who blinded enemies.

Also Tiefling girls are a bit of a facepalm material, and that's from designer who is to be believed I quote is a "kineticist adept".

That adept gave Katara Water (physical school) instead of elemental attack, and Kinetic Blade, but 10 Strength and 18 Dex and NO FINESSE.

Flame girl is a bit better but it seems to me her classes actually blocks her from getting her burn too high which means she can't max out some of the boni she gets. Of course infinite fan of flames is useful still.

 

[Haplo]

Fireball was never useless, what is this

60 damage? sounds weak, Chain Lightning with Sneak should do 150+ and that's not the biggest hit you can get.
Heck, Tristian can do 150 damage with empowered Firestorm.

Yeah, that's... kinda weak. Better do a Vulcanic Eruption/Ice Storm in a huge aoe for ~100 before metamagic, no save.

Also in the first round only? How come? You have more spells then that, I think. Also you do realize that it's enough that enemies can't see you to catch them with Surprise Spells? - Improved Invisibility works fine vs most.
Impromptu Sneak Attack vs the ones that can pierce illusions.

 

[Cryomancer]

Kineticists also do about nothing for most of the game. They provide some stable touch damage (awesome) but so do Alchemists, Magii and anyone with big stick paired to Wizard who blinded enemies.

Except that alchemists has an limit in how much bombs they can carry. and is better as an "buffer". When you reach high level, please. Pick an kineticist merc and use deadly earth on him. An amazing CC with an amazing consistent 100+ damage / round.

 

[Shadenuat]

Who cares there's a limit to bombs? You get shitton of them. An unlike Kinetic, Alchemist can do damage to anything, since there's no enemies immune to divine or force damage, and is useful for the whole game.

 

[deuxhero]

Any long term consequences to the injured dragon quest in Varnhold's Lot?

 

[Haplo]

When you reach high level, please. Pick an kineticist merc and use deadly earth on him. An amazing CC with an amazing consistent 100+ damage / round.

If that's your idea of fun - to carpet bomb an area and stay the fuck away from it (cause its deadly for your party too) and wait for enemies to die - and repeat the procedure hundreds of times - more power to you.

 

[Haplo]

I'll repost this recommendation of some less popular spells here (although they can be popular enough on Unfair due to no save, I suppose).

I love the Arcane Trickster class. It's a very solid class throughout, with the potent ranged touch attack spells. But the fun really begins when it reaches AT level 10 and gets Surprise Spells. Some previously underpowered spells seriously begin to shine then. Particularly Vulcanic Eruption, Ice Storm, even the humble Stone Call.

Suddenly they do 3d6 bludge+12d6 sneak (5d6 AT +2d6 Rogue/Vivi+Accomplished +5d6 Sense Vitals) + 2d6 fire/ice + 12d6 sneak or, in case of Stone Call, just 2d6 bludge + 12d6 sneak - all that in huge aoes at spell level 2/4 - and offering no save to the enemies and no attack roll!

And you can still apply metamagic to them.

Due to huge aoes, they can be tricky to aim. However! Since the vast majority of the damage comes from Surprise Spell sneaks, if you make your frontliners aware of the mage (for example with see invisible, true sight, echolocation), they will not be flat footed against him/her and will not suffer from the sneak attack damage - so you can carelessly bombard the battlefield and these huge 100+ damage explosions will barely tickle them, even moreso if they have some elemental resistance and/or DR.

 

[Israfael]

Well, I think devs also agree that Wiz and other casters needed a significant buff, otherwise they would not add that grandmaster rod that ignores all resistances and absorbs and maximizes/empowers any spell (including sneaked AT lazor death rays). Pretty sure you can one shot the flaming hobo even on unfair with it.

 

[Cael]

I'll repost this recommendation of some less popular spells here (although they can be popular enough on Unfair due to no save, I suppose).

I love the Arcane Trickster class. It's a very solid class throughout, with the potent ranged touch attack spells. But the fun really begins when it reaches AT level 10 and gets Surprise Spells. Some previously underpowered spells seriously begin to shine then. Particularly Vulcanic Eruption, Ice Storm, even the humble Stone Call.

Suddenly they do 3d6 bludge+12d6 sneak (5d6 AT +2d6 Rogue/Vivi+Accomplished +5d6 Sense Vitals) + 2d6 fire/ice + 12d6 sneak or, in case of Stone Call, just 2d6 bludge + 12d6 sneak - all that in huge aoes at spell level 2/4 - and offering no save to the enemies and no attack roll!

And you can still apply metamagic to them.

Due to huge aoes, they can be tricky to aim. However! Since the vast majority of the damage comes from Surprise Spell sneaks, if you make your frontliners aware of the mage (for example with see invisible, true sight, echolocation), they will not be flat footed against him/her and will not suffer from the sneak attack damage - so you can carelessly bombard the battlefield and these huge 100+ damage explosions will barely tickle them, even moreso if they have some elemental resistance and/or DR.

Which is only possible because of the way they broke the rules in the first place. You don't count sneak attack damage multiple times for the same attack. I believe even the devs admitted it was a bug, so what you are doing is basically abusing a bug. Take that away, and how well would the same spell and class combo be compared to others?

 

[Haplo]

Which is only possible because of the way they broke the rules in the first place. You don't count sneak attack damage multiple times for the same attack. I believe even the devs admitted it was a bug, so what you are doing is basically abusing a bug. Take that away, and how well would the same spell and class combo be compared to others?

Hmm, actually still not bad at that spell level.

Doing 17d6 / 14d6 damage in a huge aoe, no save, no Evasion vs 22d6 in a bit smaller aoe with Reflex save for half / Evasion for 0.
And end game enemies mostly have high Reflex. Ghastly Guardians also have Evasion.
Or 5d6 vs 10d6 if no AT.