Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[ArchAngel]

God. I think I found my new addiction. Eldritch Scoundrel is the bee's knees.

Also power attack meme needs to die. All of my frontiers have it, and I am still hitting shit. People who complain about it's penalty to attack, are over exaggerating it. If your attack bonus is not greater than the enemy's AC. Then you need to 1) Buff up 2) Lower enemy's AC from other means or 3) Restart, because your character is clearly under optimized.

Why are you using offensive spells with ES?
Play Arcane Trickster wizard if you want to sneak attack with spells...

 

[Yosharian]

Cause EK probably can't do half melee damage an SS can - particularly when spending AP.

Also EK can't easily tank early on and has worse progression.

An SS always has great AC and the right tools for the job - sufficient weapon enchantment to surpass any DR, Spellstrike to effectively damage enemies with DR that cannot be beaten - like elementals, Ghost touch VS ghosts, Brilliant Energy vs high armor (though its least useful).

What makes you say EK cant do as much damage as a SS? Don't have much experience with SS, but from what I've seen they shouldn't be to much better than what the EK can do.

EK ends up with 4 attacks and 16 BAB if built right (higher than SS I believe? Or does SS have full BAB progression?), level 7-9 spells which is a big deal in and of itself, access to spells Magus can't normally get, namely sense vitals amongst others (unless you use spell blending with the EA mod I suppose, still can only go up to level 6 though), can actually make use of arcane strike feat, etc.

My EK build also has decent AC, maybe not as good as a sword saint, but pretty good nonetheless thanks to a monk dip and protectors robes and with all the usual arcane defensive spells is pretty tanky.

I'm curious as to what you think of the EK class as a whole.

Magus (and Sword Saint by extension) has other benefits out that outshine the EK ultimately. Spellstrike/Spell Combat is one. Arcane Pool is another. Ability to fight in Full Plate is another.

The actual spells you get are not so good on Magus obviously. And Medium BAB isn't the best but it isn't the worst either.

 

[Desiderius]

Posting high damage criticals is one thing, acting like Vital Strike is better than iterative attacks is another, especially when you're relying on Lead Blades wands.

A 700 damage crit looks impressive but with only one attack per round you won't crit that often compared to iterative attacks, most of which will land on average unless your character is built like shit.

It might well be the case that Vital Strike, together with Ovirrbane and Lead Blades, actually does outdamage iterative attacks, but I'd like to see the math first before we all start circle-jerking over a 700 damage crit.

BTW, VS in-game description says Standard Action. Are we sure it’s Full?

 

[Desiderius]

Cause EK probably can't do half melee damage an SS can - particularly when spending AP.

Also EK can't easily tank early on and has worse progression.

An SS always has great AC and the right tools for the job - sufficient weapon enchantment to surpass any DR, Spellstrike to effectively damage enemies with DR that cannot be beaten - like elementals, Ghost touch VS ghosts, Brilliant Energy vs high armor (though its least useful).

What makes you say EK cant do as much damage as a SS? Don't have much experience with SS, but from what I've seen they shouldn't be to much better than what the EK can do.

EK ends up with 4 attacks and 16 BAB if built right (higher than SS I believe? Or does SS have full BAB progression?), level 7-9 spells which is a big deal in and of itself, access to spells Magus can't normally get, namely sense vitals amongst others (unless you use spell blending with the EA mod I suppose, still can only go up to level 6 though), can actually make use of arcane strike feat, etc.

My EK build also has decent AC, maybe not as good as a sword saint, but pretty good nonetheless thanks to a monk dip and protectors robes and with all the usual arcane defensive spells is pretty tanky.

I'm curious as to what you think of the EK class as a whole.

Solid but boring. Ultimately kinda one-dimensional.

 

[Ramnozack]

Cause EK probably can't do half melee damage an SS can - particularly when spending AP.

Also EK can't easily tank early on and has worse progression.

An SS always has great AC and the right tools for the job - sufficient weapon enchantment to surpass any DR, Spellstrike to effectively damage enemies with DR that cannot be beaten - like elementals, Ghost touch VS ghosts, Brilliant Energy vs high armor (though its least useful).

What makes you say EK cant do as much damage as a SS? Don't have much experience with SS, but from what I've seen they shouldn't be to much better than what the EK can do.

EK ends up with 4 attacks and 16 BAB if built right (higher than SS I believe? Or does SS have full BAB progression?), level 7-9 spells which is a big deal in and of itself, access to spells Magus can't normally get, namely sense vitals amongst others (unless you use spell blending with the EA mod I suppose, still can only go up to level 6 though), can actually make use of arcane strike feat, etc.

My EK build also has decent AC, maybe not as good as a sword saint, but pretty good nonetheless thanks to a monk dip and protectors robes and with all the usual arcane defensive spells is pretty tanky.

I'm curious as to what you think of the EK class as a whole.

Magus (and Sword Saint by extension) has other benefits out that outshine the EK ultimately. Spellstrike/Spell Combat is one. Arcane Pool is another. Ability to fight in Full Plate is another.

The actual spells you get are not so good on Magus obviously. And Medium BAB isn't the best but it isn't the worst either.

Spellstrike/spell combat is about the only thing that actually matters. Magus weapon enchanting is made superfluous by the craft magic items mod, full plate doesn't matter at all, bracers are just as good. Only other thing apart from spellstrike/spell combat (and you are restricted to using one handed melee weapons if you want to make use of that) is the dimension strike type abilities, which imo are nowhere near as powerful or useful as 7-9 spells.

 

[Yosharian]

Posting high damage criticals is one thing, acting like Vital Strike is better than iterative attacks is another, especially when you're relying on Lead Blades wands.

A 700 damage crit looks impressive but with only one attack per round you won't crit that often compared to iterative attacks, most of which will land on average unless your character is built like shit.

It might well be the case that Vital Strike, together with Ovirrbane and Lead Blades, actually does outdamage iterative attacks, but I'd like to see the math first before we all start circle-jerking over a 700 damage crit.

BTW, VS in-game description says Standard Action. Are we sure it’s Full?

If you use Vital Strike you don't get iterative attacks, that's the whole point of the feat - you're giving up your iterative attacks for one big attack

 

[Yosharian]

Spellstrike/spell combat is about the only thing that actually matters. Magus weapon enchanting is made superfluous by the craft magic items mod, full plate doesn't matter at all, bracers are just as good. Only other thing apart from spellstrike/spell combat (and you are restricted to using one handed melee weapons if you want to make use of that) is the dimension strike type abilities, which imo are nowhere near as powerful or useful as 7-9 spells.

Hmm. Probably. I dunno about Craft Magic Item making Arcane Pool superfluous. Less powerful, sure.

 

[Desiderius]

Posting high damage criticals is one thing, acting like Vital Strike is better than iterative attacks is another, especially when you're relying on Lead Blades wands.

A 700 damage crit looks impressive but with only one attack per round you won't crit that often compared to iterative attacks, most of which will land on average unless your character is built like shit.

It might well be the case that Vital Strike, together with Ovirrbane and Lead Blades, actually does outdamage iterative attacks, but I'd like to see the math first before we all start circle-jerking over a 700 damage crit.

BTW, VS in-game description says Standard Action. Are we sure it’s Full?

If you use Vital Strike you don't get iterative attacks, that's the whole point of the feat - you're giving up your iterative attacks for one big attack

No, the important thing is that you can use a Standard Action and Move Action in the same turn, but not a Full Attack and a move.

You can see the difference in the Dazzling Display nerf. I’ve got Freebooter Amiri doing a lot of Cleaves since that’s a Standard Action so goes well with Freebooter’s Bane which is a Move Action. VS would be a perfect fit if it were only Standard.

Melee toons don’t get that many iteratives in because they have to move to acquire new targets, unlike ranged.

 

[Desiderius]

Spellstrike/spell combat is about the only thing that actually matters. Magus weapon enchanting is made superfluous by the craft magic items mod, full plate doesn't matter at all, bracers are just as good. Only other thing apart from spellstrike/spell combat (and you are restricted to using one handed melee weapons if you want to make use of that) is the dimension strike type abilities, which imo are nowhere near as powerful or useful as 7-9 spells.

You’re just wrong. Initiative matters. Canny D matters. Weapon enchant absolutely does matter. Hap can explain it for better than I can.

The game is highly multi-dimensional. It’s not for reductionists.

 

[Yosharian]

No, the important thing is that you can use a Standard Action and Move Action in the same turn, but not a Full Attack and a move.

You can see the difference in the Dazzling Display nerf. I’ve got Freebooter Amiri doing a lot of Cleaves since that’s a Standard Action so goes well with Freebooter’s Bane which is a Move Action. VS would be a perfect fit if it were only Standard.

Well yes, OK, let me amend my statement then

If you use Vital Strike you don't get iterative attacks, that's the whole point of the feat - you're giving up your iterative attacks for one big attack and being able to move

happy now?

What Dazzling Display nerf are you referring to?

 

[Desiderius]

No, the important thing is that you can use a Standard Action and Move Action in the same turn, but not a Full Attack and a move.

You can see the difference in the Dazzling Display nerf. I’ve got Freebooter Amiri doing a lot of Cleaves since that’s a Standard Action so goes well with Freebooter’s Bane which is a Move Action. VS would be a perfect fit if it were only Standard.

Well yes, OK, let me amend my statement then

If you use Vital Strike you don't get iterative attacks, that's the whole point of the feat - you're giving up your iterative attacks for one big attack and being able to move

happy now?

What Dazzling Display nerf are you referring to?

No, not happy because pretty sure you can’t move as it is in game. I’ll just wait for Hap to confirm.

 

[Pink Eye]

God. I think I found my new addiction. Eldritch Scoundrel is the bee's knees.

Also power attack meme needs to die. All of my frontiers have it, and I am still hitting shit. People who complain about it's penalty to attack, are over exaggerating it. If your attack bonus is not greater than the enemy's AC. Then you need to 1) Buff up 2) Lower enemy's AC from other means or 3) Restart, because your character is clearly under optimized.

Why are you using offensive spells with ES?
Play Arcane Trickster wizard if you want to sneak attack with spells...

Because I don't want to play a stupid Arcane Trickster. The DLC dungeon allows me to try out different builds/classes. Right now I want to try out Eldritch Scoundrel. So far I am enjoying it.

 

[Ramnozack]

Cause EK probably can't do half melee damage an SS can - particularly when spending AP.

Also EK can't easily tank early on and has worse progression.

An SS always has great AC and the right tools for the job - sufficient weapon enchantment to surpass any DR, Spellstrike to effectively damage enemies with DR that cannot be beaten - like elementals, Ghost touch VS ghosts, Brilliant Energy vs high armor (though its least useful).

What makes you say EK cant do as much damage as a SS? Don't have much experience with SS, but from what I've seen they shouldn't be to much better than what the EK can do.

EK ends up with 4 attacks and 16 BAB if built right (higher than SS I believe? Or does SS have full BAB progression?), level 7-9 spells which is a big deal in and of itself, access to spells Magus can't normally get, namely sense vitals amongst others (unless you use spell blending with the EA mod I suppose, still can only go up to level 6 though), can actually make use of arcane strike feat, etc.

My EK build also has decent AC, maybe not as good as a sword saint, but pretty good nonetheless thanks to a monk dip and protectors robes and with all the usual arcane defensive spells is pretty tanky.

I'm curious as to what you think of the EK class as a whole.

Magus (and Sword Saint by extension) has other benefits out that outshine the EK ultimately. Spellstrike/Spell Combat is one. Arcane Pool is another. Ability to fight in Full Plate is another.

The actual spells you get are not so good on Magus obviously. And Medium BAB isn't the best but it isn't the worst either.

Spellstrike/spell combat is about the only thing that actually matters. Magus weapon enchanting is made superfluous by the craft magic items mod, full plate doesn't matter at all, bracers are just as good. Only other thing apart from spellstrike/spell combat (and you are restricted to using one handed melee weapons if you want to make use of that) is the dimension strike type abilities, which imo are nowhere near as powerful or useful as 7-9 spells.

You’re just wrong. Initiative matters. Canny D matters. Weapon enchant absolutely does matter. Hap can explain it for better than I can.

The game is highly multi-dimensional. It’s not for reductionists.

EK can get a respectable initiative as well. Get the hare familiar, get the reactionary trait, wear the initiative necklace, all that plus whatever bonuses to dex you get from items is more than enough to almost always go first or close to it, at least before you get to the house and other enemies like that. Canny D is a nice bonus, but it isn't something that makes or breaks a build, specially not a build that has access to defensive arcane spells. Magus enchant really does not matter with magic craft mod, its nice to have I suppose, but ultimately a waste. Why enchant your weapon for a few minutes using a per-rest resource when you can simply enchant it with the same effects permanently? None of what you said was so important is really actually that important.

 

[Haplo]

Posting high damage criticals is one thing, acting like Vital Strike is better than iterative attacks is another, especially when you're relying on Lead Blades wands.

A 700 damage crit looks impressive but with only one attack per round you won't crit that often compared to iterative attacks, most of which will land on average unless your character is built like shit.

It might well be the case that Vital Strike, together with Ovirrbane and Lead Blades, actually does outdamage iterative attacks, but I'd like to see the math first before we all start circle-jerking over a 700 damage crit.

BTW, VS in-game description says Standard Action. Are we sure it’s Full?

Ah yes, I keep forgetting that in vanilla Vital Strike has been implemented as Full Round (a bug/oversight, I'd expect).
The creator of the Turn Based was so nice to fix it to be a Standard action in his mod.

 

[Haplo]

By the way Haplo I'd really appreciate it if you posted that build because I too have been reconsidering my stance on Dex vs Str.

Oh and also an AC breakdown would be fantastic too

The build has been posted on the Build forum a long time before:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...nd-strats-thread.124160/page-114#post-6121550

As for AC, just look at the pic. Its exaggerated, I don't need that much AC, so I give Gyronna's, Daring Duelist to other characters, don't use Heroic Invocation much, boost Str rather then Dex with RoCircumstances. But it does give an idea.

 

[Yosharian]

By the way Haplo I'd really appreciate it if you posted that build because I too have been reconsidering my stance on Dex vs Str.

Oh and also an AC breakdown would be fantastic too

The build has been posted on the Build forum a long time before:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...nd-strats-thread.124160/page-114#post-6121550

As for AC, just look at the pic. Its exaggerated, I don't need that much AC, so I give Gyronna's, Daring Duelist to other characters, don't use Heroic Invocation much, boost Str rather then Dex with RoCircumstances. But it does give an idea.

My bad, I didn't see you'd included the AC breakdown earlier on in the post. Thanks for the build link.

What's the 'other' +9 AC boost? Why is Legendary Proportions stacking with Transformation?

I take it you're using a +str/dex/con belt and a +int/wis/cha headband or hat?

Edit: never mind I see you posted your items in the build

 

[Haplo]

Cause EK probably can't do half melee damage an SS can - particularly when spending AP.

Also EK can't easily tank early on and has worse progression.

An SS always has great AC and the right tools for the job - sufficient weapon enchantment to surpass any DR, Spellstrike to effectively damage enemies with DR that cannot be beaten - like elementals, Ghost touch VS ghosts, Brilliant Energy vs high armor (though its least useful).

What makes you say EK cant do as much damage as a SS? Don't have much experience with SS, but from what I've seen they shouldn't be to much better than what the EK can do.

EK ends up with 4 attacks and 16 BAB if built right (higher than SS I believe? Or does SS have full BAB progression?), level 7-9 spells which is a big deal in and of itself, access to spells Magus can't normally get, namely sense vitals amongst others (unless you use spell blending with the EA mod I suppose, still can only go up to level 6 though), can actually make use of arcane strike feat, etc.

My EK build also has decent AC, maybe not as good as a sword saint, but pretty good nonetheless thanks to a monk dip and protectors robes and with all the usual arcane defensive spells is pretty tanky.

I'm curious as to what you think of the EK class as a whole.

EK class is cool for people who want to focus on casting, with melee as support. SS the opposite. Also a Sword Saint has a much nicer start and better progression. An EK doesn't get much apart from spells till level 15-16 (provided that he does not multiclass further).

Why more damage?
1. Lethal Focus to add Int mod to damage: +9 damage, multiplied on crits (vs flat footed, but with my playstyle all enemies who can be feared are perma flat-footed)
2. Bane Blade for +2d6 damage
3. Alignment based damage: +2d6/+4d6
4. Elemental damage, depending on how much you use alignment bonuses (how much budget is left), generally +1d6 to +3d6.
5. Greater Weapon Specialization for another +2 damage, if you feel like it.
6. Then you have Critical Focus to make sure your crit threats actually land (Int mod added to Crit Confirmation).

Of course if you use Craft Items to create even more OP weapons then the game offers, this gap is less. But I don't think it can be fully closed.

These are practically permanent bonuses over EK. You Enchant weapons before combat (end game it lasts 19 minutes and can be reapplied multiple times when needed) and still use Arcane Strike normally, unless you NEED special Accuracy boosts (like Arcane Accuracy adding Int to AB). Perfect Strike does not comsume Swift Actions.

Number of attacks is usually the same - with Spellstrike you get the "free" attack with Spell Combat one-handed, but I like Transformation with 20 BAB two-handed even more.

Then when you need to nova, you trigger Perfect Strike and/or Perfect Critical (in fact I use Perfect Critical most of the time and mosty enable Perfect Strike for singular Greater Vital Strike Attacks) and maximize weapon damage plus increase the crit multiplier for at least 30% more damage - way more with the like of GVS.

Then you get nice bonuses:
1. Int added to Initiative. Eventually you always roll 20 on Initiative rolls.
2. Int added to number of attacks of Opportunity.
3. Obviously Int added to AC
4. Easily able to pierce Silver, Cold Iron, Adamantine DRs when they first appear in game. Casually butchers ghosts. Spellstrike efficiently solves early Elemental issues. Brilliant Energy destroys enemy AC in Chapters 4 and 5.

 

[Haplo]

My bad, I didn't see you'd included the AC breakdown earlier on in the post. Thanks for the build link.

What's the 'other' +9 AC boost? Why is Legendary Proportions stacking with Transformation?

Other +9 AC would be monk Wis bonus.
LP bonus should stack, as it's described as Size bonus. Whether Transformation Bonus should stack with Natural Armor Enchantment, not sure. Maybe? It does anyway.

 

[Yosharian]

My bad, I didn't see you'd included the AC breakdown earlier on in the post. Thanks for the build link.

What's the 'other' +9 AC boost? Why is Legendary Proportions stacking with Transformation?

Other +9 AC would be monk Wis bonus.
LP bonus should stack, as it's described as Size bonus. Whether Transformation Bonus should stack with Natural Armor Enchantment, not sure. Maybe? It does anyway.

Ah right, yeah it does say Size bonus

 

[ArchAngel]

So what would be good one handed dex based weapon for SS? It would need to have best range of crit and crit damage and have decent magical versions throughout the game.

 

[Haplo]

Falcata or Estoc with Slashing/Fencing Grace. Falcata has better representation mid game, but the top one caps at +3 (and requires DLC). Estoc has worse versions troughout most game, but also has a top end game pick.

Honorary mention to longswords and duelling swords. The latter has the best representation troughout the game. But lacks versions witm improved crit multiplier, which is kinda a big deal.

 

[ArchAngel]

Any of those weapons come with agile stat or should I get the crafting mod for that?

 

[Delterius]

God. I think I found my new addiction. Eldritch Scoundrel is the bee's knees.

Also power attack meme needs to die. All of my frontiers have it, and I am still hitting shit. People who complain about it's penalty to attack, are over exaggerating it. If your attack bonus is not greater than the enemy's AC. Then you need to 1) Buff up 2) Lower enemy's AC from other means or 3) Restart, because your character is clearly under optimized.

Why are you using offensive spells with ES?
Play Arcane Trickster wizard if you want to sneak attack with spells...

Because I don't want to play a stupid Arcane Trickster. The DLC dungeon allows me to try out different builds/classes. Right now I want to try out Eldritch Scoundrel. So far I am enjoying it.

also touch ac

 

[Desiderius]

He'll eventually hit diminishing returns vs using a ranged weapon due to lack of iteratives but if he's having fun with it it's not the worst thing he can do.

 

[Desiderius]

EK class is cool for people who want to focus on casting, with melee as support. SS the opposite. Also a Sword Saint has a much nicer start and better progression. An EK doesn't get much apart from spells till level 15-16 (provided that he does not multiclass further).

Why more damage?

Currently have Tristian as Scion4/Cleric 7/MT while Octavia is R4/Duelist 2/SS 11 and the difference is night and day. Tristian is going to take a lot of work to get even close. Starting with Frightful next level. He can Spellstrike Contagion/Curse, which is cool, and all his Fire dice get +2, and he tanks great so we'll see.