Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[AdamReith]

So I hit act 2 and the kingdom management stuff opened up.

Just wanted to confirm that the writing does seem to have MAJOR uptick and it is kind of like playing a different game. It's a shame they decided to front load with a woman with gender dysphoria, a short haired misandrist and a bi-sexual nymphomaniac.

There's no WAY I would have made it so far without you guys vouching for it. No WAY.

But game is good. Real good.

 

[Trashos]

The method is what makes all the difference. I never pretended to be Stag Lord's friend. I can honor my enemies. Backstabbers and hypocrites like Tristian, no.

When the Persians tried to invade Greece, they were blocked by Leonidas' men at Thermopylae. Thermopylae was a narrow place, and Persian greater numbers didn't play much of a role there. Until Ephialtes, a local traitor, showed the Persians a way to bypass the Thermopylae pass and outflank the Greeks, in exchange for riches.

That's a strange point. Tristian would be "persian" spy in your analogy(not 'a local') sent for terrain investigation and diversions waaay before the battle(or war even) started.
Whether such deployed agent will be remembered as a lowly traitor or as a hero who saved thousands of lives depends on a conflict's outcome.
History is written by the victors after all.

There are two claims I have been making in this discussion:
1) Traitors and enemies are not the same thing. Traitors are much worse, and they have been treated as such throughout history.
2) Tristian is a traitor.

In the above quote, I was supporting the 1st claim.

The 2nd claim is a different discussion. In my eyes, Tristian is definitely a traitor. He started out as an infiltrator, but then he fought by my side for many-many months (or was it a few years?). He grew to like me and/or share my goals, as evidenced by his will to honestly fight by my side when his mistress' rules allowed it (he admits this himself). Thus, when the time to complete the betrayal comes, it is just his personal interests vs his leader/co-fighter/friend. That's a traitor.

To me, it is not that important that he started out as an infiltrator. He wasn't just an infiltrator when he completed his betrayal. But even if it is important to you guys, I would like to point out that there is nothing in his story that suggests that he would have acted differently had he known me before he met Nyrissa. In addition, he ridiculed his faith, his Goddess, and his "Good"-alignment by betraying me and the people we have been ruling.

 

[Tiger]

Ok I'm about to start on this after buying it months ago. I've always liked to play crowd control characters. For example, In Everquest I enjoyed playing an Enchanter mezzing/debuffing adds and dictating the flow of the battle. Is there anything similar in this? For example, if a load of mobs are incoming, is there a class that can disable some, keeping them out of action whilst the rest of the squad focus on burning the "live" ones down?

 

[Daidre]

The 2nd claim is a different discussion. In my eyes, Tristian is definitely a traitor. He started out as an infiltrator, but then he fought by my side for many-many months (or was it a few years?). He grew to like me and/or share my goals, as evidenced by his will to honestly fight by my side when his mistress' rules allowed it (he admits this himself). Thus, when the time to complete the betrayal comes, it is just his personal interests vs his leader/co-fighter/friend. That's a traitor.

Imho, biggest difference happens in Vord's Tomb: he endы up in the situation where he needs to betray someone and he chooses one he likes less:
- If Tristian in friendly/romantic relationships with MC he breaks the Eye here and there, completely fucks up Nyrissa's extremely important plan and has no choice but to return to her for what is technically death sentence. Big thing in my book.
- If he leaves with an eye, than your logic is completely applicable and yes, he is nothing but traitor in this situation.

 

[Haplo]

There are several Crowd Control options.

The strongest one, particularly vs mobs, would be a Conjuration focused mage (wizard or sorceror).
Grease, Glitterdust, Pitt line of spells, Web (use Featherstep/Freedom), Stinking Cloud (use Delay Poison Communal!) mass disable enemies (or make them suck like Glitterdust).

Later Chains of Light neutralize bosses with poor Reflexes (Vine Trap and Icy Prison also work).

 

[Tiger]

There are several Crowd Control options.

The strongest one, particularly vs mobs, would be a Conjuration focused mage (wizard or sorceror).
Grease, Glitterdust, Pitt line of spells, Web (use Featherstep/Freedom), Stinking Cloud (use Delay Poison Communal!) mass disable enemies (or make them suck like Glitterdust).

Later Chains of Light neutralize bosses with poor Reflexes (Vine Trap and Icy Prison also work).

That sounds great. Is there much of a decision to be made between Wizard/Sorcerer or would it be more of a cosmetic choice?

 

[Haplo]

Hmm... you know more spells as wizard and get each new spell level 1 character level earlier, cast them spontaneously (choose on the fly) as sorc.
I think a Sage Bloodline Sorceror can push highest spell Difficulty Checks.

On the other hand, a wizard would be a better Arcane Trickster candidate due to not lagging behind in spell progression (so a Wizard 3/Vivisectionist or Rogue 1 with Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat to meet AT requirements would still have same spell access as Sorc 4).
And its an absolutely awesome Prestige Class that adds high sneak damage dice to damaging spells - eventually also to aoe spells!

 

[Desiderius]

Ok I'm about to start on this after buying it months ago. I've always liked to play crowd control characters. For example, In Everquest I enjoyed playing an Enchanter mezzing/debuffing adds and dictating the flow of the battle. Is there anything similar in this? For example, if a load of mobs are incoming, is there a class that can disable some, keeping them out of action whilst the rest of the squad focus on burning the "live" ones down?

That describes Bard perfectly. This game is revenge of the Bard. You’ll love it.

 

[Tiger]

Ok thank you for the head start Haplo and Desiderius I'll head off and do some reading up on the various options.

 

[Desiderius]

There are several Crowd Control options.

The strongest one, particularly vs mobs, would be a Conjuration focused mage (wizard or sorceror).
Grease, Glitterdust, Pitt line of spells, Web (use Featherstep/Freedom), Stinking Cloud (use Delay Poison Communal!) mass disable enemies (or make them suck like Glitterdust).

Later Chains of Light neutralize bosses with poor Reflexes (Vine Trap and Icy Prison also work).

That sounds great. Is there much of a decision to be made between Wizard/Sorcerer or would it be more of a cosmetic choice?

Bard gives you Fascinate Song at level six that mezzes half the mobs passively while you’re free to cast/fight. Later your songs mass debuff/fear. You get unique spells as well that focus on debilitating rather than nuking.

You get more uses from songs than spells which give you more staying power.

 

[Haplo]

A lot of enemies are immune to most Bard CC, though. Well except Shout and such, but that's... very short lived and limited in area of effect.

On the other hand, nothing's really immune to Conjuration effects.

 

[Yosharian]

There are several Crowd Control options.

The strongest one, particularly vs mobs, would be a Conjuration focused mage (wizard or sorceror).
Grease, Glitterdust, Pitt line of spells, Web (use Featherstep/Freedom), Stinking Cloud (use Delay Poison Communal!) mass disable enemies (or make them suck like Glitterdust).

Later Chains of Light neutralize bosses with poor Reflexes (Vine Trap and Icy Prison also work).

That sounds great. Is there much of a decision to be made between Wizard/Sorcerer or would it be more of a cosmetic choice?

I prefer Sorcs because they are so versatile. I don't have to decide beforehand how many of this spell I need, how many of that spell I need, and so on. Also Sorc bloodlines can be really neat.

However you need to know which spells are the best, so if you don't have that knowledge or aren't willing to read up on it, Wizard could be better for you. Also Wizards are, sometimes, just straight up stronger with the feats they get and some of the abilities they can get.

 

[Desiderius]

A lot of enemies are immune to most Bard CC, though. Well except Shout and such, but that's... very short lived and limited in area of effect.

On the other hand, nothing's really immune to Conjuration effects.

The area is quite large, and a turn is a long time when your toons hit like Haplo's do. Pretty much nothing is immune to Slow.

 

[Delterius]

There are several Crowd Control options.

The strongest one, particularly vs mobs, would be a Conjuration focused mage (wizard or sorceror).
Grease, Glitterdust, Pitt line of spells, Web (use Featherstep/Freedom), Stinking Cloud (use Delay Poison Communal!) mass disable enemies (or make them suck like Glitterdust).

Later Chains of Light neutralize bosses with poor Reflexes (Vine Trap and Icy Prison also work).

That sounds great. Is there much of a decision to be made between Wizard/Sorcerer or would it be more of a cosmetic choice?

It is definitely not a cosmetic choice.

A Wizard can be seen as the standard for arcane spellcasting. They get the fastest spell access, they use intelligence as their casting stat and they can learn every spell in the book. They prepare a number of spells per day in a limited number of slots.

In theory, the Sorcerer is one level of spell access behind the wizard and limits the number of spells he knows in exchange for a greater number of spell casts per day. Instead of preparing spells from a number of slots, they have mana points they spend for spells.

In practice, the Wizard is likely to specialize in 2 or 3 schools of magic and magic as a whole is much more limited in a CRPG than in PnP. So its not like they are going to always make full use of their spellbooks. The Sorcerer's advantage in firepower also diminishes at odd levels -- the wizard got to a new level of magic and the sorcerer didn't, thats 3 casts for a specialist wizard. Further, there's the Thassilonian Specialist, who sacrifices 2 schools of magic in exchange for getting as much firepower as a Sorcerer. That drawback of losing entire schools isn't too much of an issue if you're, say, a conjuration specialist since conjuration by itself can do anything.

So in truth, if you take say, a level 1 Sorcerer and a level 1 Wizard -- both specialized in Conjuration -- you might see that the Wizard has 2 or 3 casts of Grease memorized for crowd control and a fourth spell (if thassilonian) that is up in the air. Perhaps Sleep. The Sorcerer gets to cast Grease as many times as he wants out of 4, as well as the second spell he learned, whichever he chooses.

The major difference is that the Sorcerer is more tactically versatile than the wizard. If, in the course of a whole adventure, the Wizard needs one more cast of his favorite spell, he's doomed. The Sorcerer on the other hand, spends his power accordingly to his need.

This is without counting on things like school powers and bloodline powers, but those are more specific to what sort of character you want to build.

PS: sylvan sorcerer is the best character in the game, you get an animal companion and you can definitely specialize in crowd control.

 

[panda]

Imho, biggest difference happens in Vord's Tomb: he ends up in the situation where he needs to betray someone and he chooses one he likes less:
- If Tristian in friendly/romantic relationships with MC he breaks the Eye here and there, completely fucks up Nyrissa's extremely important plan and has no choice but to return to her for what is technically death sentence. Big thing in my book.

Exactly. If really

He grew to like me and/or share my goals, as evidenced by his will to honestly fight by my side when his mistress' rules allowed it (he admits this himself)

he wont betray you in Vordakai's Tomb. In fact, he basically commits suicide for your sake there.
And if MC is some kind of edgy LE/NE monarch and acts as one then, as Desiderius pointed out, complaining about "loyalty"(and thus "betrayal") is a rich joke here.

What i initially meant by dirty deed was the Everblooming Flower, not the Tomb. It is then

he ridiculed his faith, his Goddess, and his "Good"-alignment

Here i completely agree.

 

[Desiderius]

A lot of enemies are immune to most Bard CC, though. Well except Shout and such, but that's... very short lived and limited in area of effect.

On the other hand, nothing's really immune to Conjuration effects.

The area is quite large, and a turn is a long time when your toons hit like Haplo's do. Pretty much nothing is immune to Slow.

This is your Bard on P:K

 

[Shadenuat]

If, in the course of a whole adventure, the Wizard needs one more cast of his favorite spell

He activates bonded item.

sylvan sorcerer is the best character in the game

nah.
I honestly dungeit, why would you take a pet without any synergy from class which can't cast pet buffs; and also lose sorc things like boni to dc or elemental damage.
to me Sylvan sorc is simply solo class or for people who can't get through Chapter 1 on Hard/Unfair.

 

[ArchAngel]

There are several Crowd Control options.

The strongest one, particularly vs mobs, would be a Conjuration focused mage (wizard or sorceror).
Grease, Glitterdust, Pitt line of spells, Web (use Featherstep/Freedom), Stinking Cloud (use Delay Poison Communal!) mass disable enemies (or make them suck like Glitterdust).

Later Chains of Light neutralize bosses with poor Reflexes (Vine Trap and Icy Prison also work).

That sounds great. Is there much of a decision to be made between Wizard/Sorcerer or would it be more of a cosmetic choice?

It is definitely not a cosmetic choice.

A Wizard can be seen as the standard for arcane spellcasting. They get the fastest spell access, they use intelligence as their casting stat and they can learn every spell in the book. They prepare a number of spells per day in a limited number of slots.

In theory, the Sorcerer is one level of spell access behind the wizard and limits the number of spells he knows in exchange for a greater number of spell casts per day. Instead of preparing spells from a number of slots, they have mana points they spend for spells.

In practice, the Wizard is likely to specialize in 2 or 3 schools of magic and magic as a whole is much more limited in a CRPG than in PnP. So its not like they are going to always make full use of their spellbooks. The Sorcerer's advantage in firepower also diminishes at odd levels -- the wizard got to a new level of magic and the sorcerer didn't, thats 3 casts for a specialist wizard. Further, there's the Thassilonian Specialist, who sacrifices 2 schools of magic in exchange for getting as much firepower as a Sorcerer. That drawback of losing entire schools isn't too much of an issue if you're, say, a conjuration specialist since conjuration by itself can do anything.

So in truth, if you take say, a level 1 Sorcerer and a level 1 Wizard -- both specialized in Conjuration -- you might see that the Wizard has 2 or 3 casts of Grease memorized for crowd control and a fourth spell (if thassilonian) that is up in the air. Perhaps Sleep. The Sorcerer gets to cast Grease as many times as he wants out of 4, as well as the second spell he learned, whichever he chooses.

The major difference is that the Sorcerer is more tactically versatile than the wizard. If, in the course of a whole adventure, the Wizard needs one more cast of his favorite spell, he's doomed. The Sorcerer on the other hand, spends his power accordingly to his need.

This is without counting on things like school powers and bloodline powers, but those are more specific to what sort of character you want to build.

PS: sylvan sorcerer is the best character in the game, you get an animal companion and you can definitely specialize in crowd control.

Sorcerer can also apply metamagic on the fly which is a big bonus. You spent all your lvl 3 spells but want that Haste now? Well now, just Heighten it to lvl 4 at any point and do it.

 

[Sykar]

If, in the course of a whole adventure, the Wizard needs one more cast of his favorite spell

He activates bonded item.

sylvan sorcerer is the best character in the game

nah.
I honestly dungeit, why would you take a pet without any synergy from class which can't cast pet buffs; and also lose sorc things like boni to dc or elemental damage.
to me Sylvan sorc is simply solo class or for people who can't get through Chapter 1 on Hard/Unfair.

Are those pet buffs such a difference maker when you do have access to general buffs like Mage Armor, Haste, Displacement, etc?

 

[Haplo]

There are several Crowd Control options.

The strongest one, particularly vs mobs, would be a Conjuration focused mage (wizard or sorceror).
Grease, Glitterdust, Pitt line of spells, Web (use Featherstep/Freedom), Stinking Cloud (use Delay Poison Communal!) mass disable enemies (or make them suck like Glitterdust).

Later Chains of Light neutralize bosses with poor Reflexes (Vine Trap and Icy Prison also work).

That sounds great. Is there much of a decision to be made between Wizard/Sorcerer or would it be more of a cosmetic choice?

It is definitely not a cosmetic choice.

A Wizard can be seen as the standard for arcane spellcasting. They get the fastest spell access, they use intelligence as their casting stat and they can learn every spell in the book. They prepare a number of spells per day in a limited number of slots.

In theory, the Sorcerer is one level of spell access behind the wizard and limits the number of spells he knows in exchange for a greater number of spell casts per day. Instead of preparing spells from a number of slots, they have mana points they spend for spells.

In practice, the Wizard is likely to specialize in 2 or 3 schools of magic and magic as a whole is much more limited in a CRPG than in PnP. So its not like they are going to always make full use of their spellbooks. The Sorcerer's advantage in firepower also diminishes at odd levels -- the wizard got to a new level of magic and the sorcerer didn't, thats 3 casts for a specialist wizard. Further, there's the Thassilonian Specialist, who sacrifices 2 schools of magic in exchange for getting as much firepower as a Sorcerer. That drawback of losing entire schools isn't too much of an issue if you're, say, a conjuration specialist since conjuration by itself can do anything.

So in truth, if you take say, a level 1 Sorcerer and a level 1 Wizard -- both specialized in Conjuration -- you might see that the Wizard has 2 or 3 casts of Grease memorized for crowd control and a fourth spell (if thassilonian) that is up in the air. Perhaps Sleep. The Sorcerer gets to cast Grease as many times as he wants out of 4, as well as the second spell he learned, whichever he chooses.

The major difference is that the Sorcerer is more tactically versatile than the wizard. If, in the course of a whole adventure, the Wizard needs one more cast of his favorite spell, he's doomed. The Sorcerer on the other hand, spends his power accordingly to his need.

This is without counting on things like school powers and bloodline powers, but those are more specific to what sort of character you want to build.

PS: sylvan sorcerer is the best character in the game, you get an animal companion and you can definitely specialize in crowd control.

Sorcerer can also apply metamagic on the fly which is a big bonus. You spent all your lvl 3 spells but want that Haste now? Well now, just Heighten it to lvl 4 at any point and do it.

Everyone can use metamagic on the fly with the rods. Okay, maybe not Heighten. On the downside, a sorceror's metamagic spells are cast as full-round actions.

 

[Shadenuat]

Are those pet buffs such a difference maker when you do have access to general buffs like Mage Armor, Haste, Displacement, etc?

Well without Magic Fang your pet is not even getting through any DR for example.

(God I hope it's technically correct and not bugged )

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Sage sorcerer is the best arcane caster class.

 

[ArchAngel]

Are those pet buffs such a difference maker when you do have access to general buffs like Mage Armor, Haste, Displacement, etc?

Well without Magic Fang your pet is not even getting through any DR for example.

(God I hope it's technically correct and not bugged )

That is not true, they get enhancements as they level up. Look at their ability lists.

 

[Shadenuat]

Sage sorcerer is the best arcane caster class.

Only after level 16 or what was that level.

 

[ArchAngel]

There are several Crowd Control options.

The strongest one, particularly vs mobs, would be a Conjuration focused mage (wizard or sorceror).
Grease, Glitterdust, Pitt line of spells, Web (use Featherstep/Freedom), Stinking Cloud (use Delay Poison Communal!) mass disable enemies (or make them suck like Glitterdust).

Later Chains of Light neutralize bosses with poor Reflexes (Vine Trap and Icy Prison also work).

That sounds great. Is there much of a decision to be made between Wizard/Sorcerer or would it be more of a cosmetic choice?

It is definitely not a cosmetic choice.

A Wizard can be seen as the standard for arcane spellcasting. They get the fastest spell access, they use intelligence as their casting stat and they can learn every spell in the book. They prepare a number of spells per day in a limited number of slots.

In theory, the Sorcerer is one level of spell access behind the wizard and limits the number of spells he knows in exchange for a greater number of spell casts per day. Instead of preparing spells from a number of slots, they have mana points they spend for spells.

In practice, the Wizard is likely to specialize in 2 or 3 schools of magic and magic as a whole is much more limited in a CRPG than in PnP. So its not like they are going to always make full use of their spellbooks. The Sorcerer's advantage in firepower also diminishes at odd levels -- the wizard got to a new level of magic and the sorcerer didn't, thats 3 casts for a specialist wizard. Further, there's the Thassilonian Specialist, who sacrifices 2 schools of magic in exchange for getting as much firepower as a Sorcerer. That drawback of losing entire schools isn't too much of an issue if you're, say, a conjuration specialist since conjuration by itself can do anything.

So in truth, if you take say, a level 1 Sorcerer and a level 1 Wizard -- both specialized in Conjuration -- you might see that the Wizard has 2 or 3 casts of Grease memorized for crowd control and a fourth spell (if thassilonian) that is up in the air. Perhaps Sleep. The Sorcerer gets to cast Grease as many times as he wants out of 4, as well as the second spell he learned, whichever he chooses.

The major difference is that the Sorcerer is more tactically versatile than the wizard. If, in the course of a whole adventure, the Wizard needs one more cast of his favorite spell, he's doomed. The Sorcerer on the other hand, spends his power accordingly to his need.

This is without counting on things like school powers and bloodline powers, but those are more specific to what sort of character you want to build.

PS: sylvan sorcerer is the best character in the game, you get an animal companion and you can definitely specialize in crowd control.

Sorcerer can also apply metamagic on the fly which is a big bonus. You spent all your lvl 3 spells but want that Haste now? Well now, just Heighten it to lvl 4 at any point and do it.

Everyone can use metamagic on the fly with the rods. Okay, maybe not Heighten. On the downside, a sorceror's metamagic spells are cast as full-round actions.

Rods are limited per day and per spell levels and you need to acquire them. Sorcerers can go beyond that.