Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Daidre]

Most people think the other ones are trash.

I was thinking about Mistic Theurge built upon merged Angel/Lich with 9 lvl spells in both divine and arcane spellbook. Ot just in one spellbook, if going for effective instead of cool.
If someone modded in Theurgy feat that reduces prereqs for this PrC, like CotW for Kingmaker, I would have gone for it already, but for now it is just one build in the long list of what I plan to play one day.

 

[Grunker]

I read it as “not good” by default. If you meant

I meant:

In 3.5, it is generally an improvement of most builds to prestige class.

In Pathfinder, that is not a general rule (often, the opposite is the case).

Fake edit: actually I just read my original phrasing and you’re forgiven for the misunderstanding. “Isn’t good by default” can totally read like “bad by default.” Chalk it up to my poor English.

Re-reading my post rephrasing my intended meaning my point should stand out clearer:

Sounds more like just plain idiocy than 3.5 idiocy tbh. EK ain't even that good in 3.5.

Pathfinder for the most part works exactly like 3.5 except for a list of exceptions, one of those being that prestige classing isn’t always optimal, though I suppose the latter was sort of your point. I don't think the logic space is categorically different though

The point was that one of Pathfinder’s intended design goals was to incentivize single-classing not to exclude dipping or prestige classing, but to make both options worth considering (though arguably, PF falls slightly too much in the SC camp on the whole). Most of Pathfinders changes fall into either this category or the system rework category; e.g. the way Combat Maneuvers work.

These changes generally reduce the ease with which you can access broken things while simultaneously elevating many options that were suboptimal in 3.5, but they don’t change the core features of the system or your approach to it. They just tweak it.

This is evident from the fact that most of 3.5’s core issues (or, the cost the systems pay for their abundance of complexity, if you will) persist through to Pathfinder. Fans of the system often deny these issues but I really like Pathfinder despite them. Any design choice has an associated cost, and with a system as insanely varied and asset heavy as 3.5 and Pathfinder are bound to have problems that manifest in moment to moment gameplay.

 

[Grunker]

Also all my builds are homebrew. That’s the point.

Agreed 100%. Everyone's builds should be homebrew and otherwise just exchanging tips, insights, and what not. Deciding how to structure your characters is a significant portion of the game. Letting someone else tell you what to do is like buying a cheat guide and following it exactly, then whining that the game isn't interesting.

I disagree. Sure, all-out copying some powergamer build seems boring (but if that’s what someone likes, hey, they do them), but I often start with an idea of a character, look for other peoples take on that concept or similar concepts, and then tinker with it to suit my style or just pick and choose a few things from there to add to my own design. Some of my characters I almost build entirely from the ground up myself while others are just tweaked versions of some fun build I found.

There’s actually quite a few people out there making fun and interesting Pathfinder builds specifically not designed around broken mechanics which I’d probably never think about myself. I see no reason not to take their ideas and run with them, if I like them.

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah I can buy that.

A lot of people undervalue/dismiss the single-classing because they’re not used to it, so my main thing is pointing out/illustrating the benefits and ragging on people who are stuck on a set of assumptions that haven’t borne out in testing.

 

[Average Manatee]

Anyone who says they made their first Kineticist build from scratch without looking at a guide and are happy with the result is lying.

I agree with the sentiment in favor of creating your own builds though.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Also all my builds are homebrew. That’s the point.

Agreed 100%. Everyone's builds should be homebrew and otherwise just exchanging tips, insights, and what not. Deciding how to structure your characters is a significant portion of the game. Letting someone else tell you what to do is like buying a cheat guide and following it exactly, then whining that the game isn't interesting.

I disagree. Sure, all-out copying some powergamer build seems boring (but if that’s what someone likes, hey, they do them), but I often start with an idea of a character, look for other peoples take on that concept or similar concepts, and then tinker with it to suit my style or just pick and choose a few things from there to add to my own design. Some of my characters I almost build entirely from the ground up myself while others are just tweaked versions of some fun build I found.

There’s actually quite a few people out there making fun and interesting Pathfinder builds specifically not designed around broken mechanics which I’d probably never think about myself. I see no reason not to take their ideas and run with them, if I like them.

So you... look at someone's idea and then do your own thing rather than copying them. But you think you disagree with me. Alrighty then.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Anyone who says they made their first Kineticist build from scratch without looking at a guide and are happy with the result is lying.

I agree with the sentiment in favor of creating your own builds though.

What do you mean by guide? If the rules count, then yes, I guess you're right.

 

[Desiderius]

Anyone who says they made their first Kineticist build from scratch without looking at a guide and are happy with the result is lying.

I agree with the sentiment in favor of creating your own builds though.

P:K gives you two pre-built so I just went from there. Took me a while to get to something I was happy with but ended up satisficed with both. Even took Kanerah along on my Unfair run until Octavia got up to speed.

Kalikke Finesse Bull Rush Whirlwind Tank (she starts with Blade)



Kanerah AoE Blinding Fire nuker





Then I did a PsychoKin (Wis-based) unlimited Grease spammer:



And Val KKnight Magma Whirlwind Tripper



But Tower Shield was bugged with KKnight and she was a little OP/uninteresting (no spells and MC was a martial) so she hit the bench.

It was the last class I tried since I was pretty intimidated but once the twins forced me to figure it out it wasn't so bad.

 

[luj1]

Finally started playing this so will just list my thoughts here (tutorial cave, Mongrel Village, Maze),

- Poorly written dialogue, very melodramatic and boring
- NPCs with overly dramatic, annoying voice acting, like watching anime. Idk why people do this, Mongrel chief was unvoiced and it was awesome to read and imagine his voice
- Silliest intro I've seen, festival attacked by demons and giant dragon appears and dies in 1 second (?)
- Intro too scripted, cannot explore at own pace which ruins exploration
- 5 mandatory companions in 2 minutes
- None of the characters seem to be ordinary, everyone is some tiefling/mutant/freak like it's Planescape. Seems tryhard and without measure
- Somewhat awkward camera / perspective and dark, barebone maps with poor optional content
- Lots of placeholder portraits, placeholder icons, feats that aren't even implemented
- Loot shown on minimap lol
- Everything is highlighted or marked leading to limited interactivity
- Poor portrait selection, mostly women and various creatures

Basically feels like HotU for inept zoomers

 

[smaug]

Finally started playing this so will just list my thoughts here (tutorial cave, Mongrel Village, Maze),

- Poorly written dialogue, very melodramatic and boring
- NPCs with overly dramatic, annoying voice acting, like watching anime. Idk why people do this, Mongrel chief was unvoiced and it was awesome to read and imagine his voice
- Silliest intro I've seen, festival attacked by demons and giant dragon appears and dies in 1 second (?)
- Intro too scripted, cannot explore at own pace which ruins exploration
- 5 mandatory companions in 2 minutes
- None of the characters seem to be ordinary, everyone is some tiefling/mutant/freak like it's Planescape. Seems tryhard and without measure
- Somewhat awkward camera / perspective and dark, barebone maps with poor optional content
- Lots of placeholder portraits, placeholder icons, feats that aren't even implemented
- Loot shown on minimap lol
- Everything is highlighted or marked leading to limited interactivity
- Poor portrait selection, mostly women and various creatures

Basically feels like HotU for inept zoomers

Do you like the character building/system?

 

[luj1]

Finally started playing this so will just list my thoughts here (tutorial cave, Mongrel Village, Maze),

- Poorly written dialogue, very melodramatic and boring
- NPCs with overly dramatic, annoying voice acting, like watching anime. Idk why people do this, Mongrel chief was unvoiced and it was awesome to read and imagine his voice
- Silliest intro I've seen, festival attacked by demons and giant dragon appears and dies in 1 second (?)
- Intro too scripted, cannot explore at own pace which ruins exploration
- 5 mandatory companions in 2 minutes
- None of the characters seem to be ordinary, everyone is some tiefling/mutant/freak like it's Planescape. Seems tryhard and without measure
- Somewhat awkward camera / perspective and dark, barebone maps with poor optional content
- Lots of placeholder portraits, placeholder icons, feats that aren't even implemented
- Loot shown on minimap lol
- Everything is highlighted or marked leading to limited interactivity
- Poor portrait selection, mostly women and various creatures

Basically feels like HotU for inept zoomers

Do you like the character building/system?

To me this is like 3.5 D&D with unnecessary bloat.

All these hybrid classes bleed into each other and feel extremely samey. Likewise behind every subclass is a petty idea that doesn't merit a whole class. You don't feel a difference when playing a War Priest / Cleric / Inquisitor / Paladin, or their subclasses.

When you play a Paladin or Cleric in NwN for example, you feel it. I prefer characteristically stronger classes.

 

[ga♥]

- Poorly written dialogue, very melodramatic and boring

It gets better (and also it gets worse sadly), quality is pretty uneven.

- NPCs with overly dramatic, annoying voice acting, like watching anime. Idk why people do this, Mongrel chief was unvoiced and it was awesome to read and imagine his voice

Same as the dialogue quality, the VO is pretty uneven. Good thing is most of the text is unvoiced!

- Silliest intro I've seen, festival attacked by demons and giant dragon appears and dies in 1 second (?)

You find it silly because of the festival or because the dragon dies immediatly? Because I am afraid that the dragon is a really a poor match against a demigod.

- Intro too scripted, cannot explore at own pace which ruins exploration

Not sure what you mean here, that's the tutorial, you are not supposed to explore as in the main non-tutorial game.

- 5 mandatory companions in 2 minutes

Pretty standard stuff, chateau Irenicus throwed at you Jaehira and Minsc. It's also true you could leave them there or expel them from party at start something you cannot do in WOTR but as soon you are out of the tutorial you can leave them behind. (3 mandatory companions btw, not 5)

- None of the characters seem to be ordinary, everyone is some tiefling/mutant/freak like it's Planescape. Seems tryhard and without measure

The companions or what? Only mutants are Wenduag/Lann, and the Mongrels, but that's the area.

- Somewhat awkward camera / perspective and dark, barebone maps with poor optional content

Took me a bit to learn how to camera, and yeah maps feel barebone, same as Kingmaker.

- Lots of placeholder portraits, placeholder icons, feats that aren't even implemented

Situation was much worse months ago.

- Loot shown on minimap lol

I assume you mean the regular map as there's no minimap in the UI. So uhm, why is this bad?

- Everything is highlighted or marked leading to limited interactivity

Not sure I understand.

- Poor portrait selection, mostly women and various creatures

Completely true. Portraits sucks bad, and there are too few of them. There are some portrait packs on nexusmods, but forget IWD quality.

Btw the tutorial is much worse than chateau Irenicus, easily one of the worst area of the game, if you endure out of it you will enjoy the rest (or most of the rest).

 

[Sarathiour]

I can't imagine playing without portrait pack or bubbles.

It's not really surprising that portrait sucks, character design is absolutely terrible, and few of them go way past incompetence and are on the verge of sabotage. Aru's portrait is probably the prime exemple of how fucked up lighting end up in face.

 

[The_Mask]

Finally started playing this so will just list my thoughts here (tutorial cave, Mongrel Village, Maze),

- Poorly written dialogue, very melodramatic and boring
- NPCs with overly dramatic, annoying voice acting, like watching anime. Idk why people do this, Mongrel chief was unvoiced and it was awesome to read and imagine his voice
- Silliest intro I've seen, festival attacked by demons and giant dragon appears and dies in 1 second (?)
- Intro too scripted, cannot explore at own pace which ruins exploration
- 5 mandatory companions in 2 minutes
- None of the characters seem to be ordinary, everyone is some tiefling/mutant/freak like it's Planescape. Seems tryhard and without measure
- Somewhat awkward camera / perspective and dark, barebone maps with poor optional content
- Lots of placeholder portraits, placeholder icons, feats that aren't even implemented
- Loot shown on minimap lol
- Everything is highlighted or marked leading to limited interactivity
- Poor portrait selection, mostly women and various creatures

Basically feels like HotU for inept zoomers

If these are your real thoughts so far, then you need to uninstall right now. Shit's gonna get crazy later.

 

[Desiderius]

It’s a lot to click thru but at this point I’m just at turbo click.

tl;dr

 

[Stavrophore]

Judging by what i read, the game has similar problems with bugs, balancing, and tedium[resting, buffs] as the kingmaker. So probably i will wait to next year to play it, finally patched to much better state.

 

[Grunker]

Judging by what i read, the game has similar problems with bugs, balancing, and tedium[resting, buffs] as the kingmaker. So probably i will wait to next year to play it, finally patched to much better state.

Judging by what I read, it's actually worse. People frequently post about missing content and gameplay (not just RPG system) bugs. At this point in Kingmaker's lifetime, there were few serious gameplay bugs and definetely no missing content worth speaking about.

Like you, I've decided to wait for at least the Enhanced Edition.

 

[Sarathiour]

Yeah, wait for January 2023 at the very least if you want to play on a somewhat finished version.

That still won't fix the writing or the dubious design of some encounter, so don't get your hope's up.

 

[Desiderius]

The improvement curve isn’t what it was for P:K. TTT gives me hope that mods can pick up the slack, but P:K also added features and QoL stuff we haven’t seen in Wrath so I’m not optimistic.

Maybe they axe the wokels like Netflix did but short of that I don’t think they’re getting to P:K quality, and even the third P:K DLC felt pretty mailed-in.

 

[Vorark]

Judging by what I read, it's actually worse. People frequently post about missing content and gameplay (not just RPG system) bugs. At this point in Kingmaker's lifetime, there were few serious gameplay bugs and definetely no missing content worth speaking about.

This is why Owlcat announcing a second round of DLC doesn't sit well with me, when they have yet to bring the game to a good state after almost one year of constant patching. What is the point of supposedly having two teams, one working on updates while the other takes care of extra content, if both are unable to release a stable, functional product?

Wouldn't be surprised if the EE ends up as another mess.

 

[Desiderius]

They've got a genius or two* and all I can figure is everything has to go through them and they're tied up on story stuff/game-breaking bugs/working on the next game. The first DLC seems like it was the same team who did the Enigma area and the second the same team that did the Boggart stuff/Depths in P:K DLC 3. Just not near the quality of the main games.

* - they stupidly got rid of the other genius who could have cleaned up/enhanced the plotting and writing.

 

[gurugeorge]

Both games are remarkable achievements, even despite the occasional ricketyness and bugs; but judging from the team videos I've seen, it strikes me that they have a fair amount of woketard deadweight.

 

[Desiderius]

The nice Babushkas seem pretty good, but that's the kind that gets easily rolled and co-opted by the wokels.

 

[NJClaw]

When you play a Paladin or Cleric in NwN for example, you feel it.

Of course you feel it. If by "it" you mean the existential dread that necessarily accompanies you while playing Neverwinter Nights.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

the existential dread that necessarily accompanies you

Stop rolling elves and I will not hunt your characters down and kill them. Simple as that.