Development Info Pillars of Eternity Kickstarter Update #79: Graphics and Rendering (and E3)

[Dr Schultz]

And as I've said, they are not copying anyone in particular: this is a typical Larian's game in many regards. So, unless they don't understand what they've done in their previous games, they know exactly what they are doing now.

The typical Larian game was blatantly copying what other developers like Blizzard did.

Sure, all Blizzard games have a class-less ruleset, an open, interactive, not-random generated world, and they are full of self-irony. I've almost peed my pants the last time I've played Diablo.
Oh, and I've almost forgot: they all allow you to become a flying-fire-breathing dragon :asd:...

Everyone takes from other games in this field. You know: One can invent the wheel only once. "Blatantly copying" is a completelly different story, though. A story that has nothing to do with Larian's games, which are all pretty original or at least personal.

 

[Servo]

Holy hell this looks amazing. Can't wait til I get through 30+ years of gaming history to try this out...

 

[Burning Bridges]

Are these hipsters deliberately chosen for the interviews or are there no normal guys working on this game?

 

[Infinitron]

Adam's no hipster, he's a genuine nerd.

 

[Brayko]

Hey great tech stuff how bout some more game?

 

[Grotesque]

wtf is an aloth?

 

[Infinitron]

wtf is an aloth?

This guy: http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Aloth

 

[Zed]

an elf wizard.

probably sawyer's favorite companion.

 

[J_C]

wtf is an aloth?

The guy with multi headed dicks in his hand.

 

[thesheeep]

wtf is an aloth?

The guy with multi headed dicks in his hand.

Well... actually... hm.
There really is no denying it, is there?

 

[Servo]

Those are snakes mann.

 

[Grotesque]

an elf wizard.

probably sawyer's favorite companion.

I bet he's Avellone's favourite companion too, especially when wielding a longsword!

 

[Zeriel]

Cargo Cult development is copying what other games did without understanding why they did it in that way, not chasing the next hot thing.

And as I've said, they are not copying anybody in particular: this is first and foremost a typical Larian's game.

I think what tuluse means is copying at a lower level.

Ie, "an RPG needs to have lots of stats so let's add lots of stats!"

It's about doing "RPG stuff" without having a good understanding of the underlying consequences.

Okay, I'll bite. What does it say about Larian's competition if, by blatantly copying others, they get an end result that is shaping up to be hands down the best actual RPG of this generation?

There's zero reason to believe it isn't already. Obsidian has yet to show their work. InXile did--is anyone here seriously going to argue Wasteland 2 is on par with D:OS? We already know what Pillars of Eternity is going to be, anyway. They told us: it's going to be Baldur's Dale 3. It's going to have real time with pause combat. They've promised to improve the formula, but we all know the formula is what's wrong with the damn thing, so the best case scenario is a game of good content and mediocre systems.

Speaking of that foundational argument, it's a complete crock of shit. Why did Divine Divinity have Diablo-esque combat? Because the publisher stepped in and demanded they change it. It would have never seen the light of day otherwise. Larian "copies" other developers no more than Obsidian does. Hell, they're demonstrated a desire (and capacity) to take risks in favor of what they as gamers like. D:OS is everything it is because that's the kind of game they wanted to play. They had enough money to try it, so they did it. Pillars of Eternity was built to please some imagined, heterogenous group of Baldur's Gate fans. Which is great--I'd like to play another Baldur's Gate. But it is no bastion of principled game design, no matter how fiercely Roguey tilts at those windmills.

Here's the ugly truth about "cargo cult game design": the industry made better games in the past, when these developers were kids or young adults. It's not shameful to take what you know you enjoyed, what worked, and make your own interpretation and version of that with what you've learned. Reinventing the wheel just to say you reinvented the wheel is a hell of a lot worse.

 

[Infinitron]

Zeriel Like I said, it's not so much about copying game styles on a high level as it is about understanding lower level mechanics and features.

So, to use that example, anybody can do "Diablo-style combat", but does everybody have the old Blizzard North's expertise at designing loot, classes, etc? Probably not.

 

[Zeriel]

Blizzard's "skills" are highly exaggerated. They poach from companies we'd spit on (Jay Wilson came from Dawn of War, remember). Ultimately, there are a lot of developers who would create incredible stuff if they had a company bankrolling 10-year dev cycles. I'm a fan of them traditionally, but let's be real. They don't have a perfect track record, either.

Ultimately, though, I just find it an absurd comparison. Larian has always had its own identity. What is derivative in their games is down to the usual nature of game design when publishers are involved. Are we really going to go down the path of citing every time a developer does something that is "in vogue"? There's a billion examples in Obsidian's catalogue, believe you me.

 

[Infinitron]

I said Blizzard North, not Blizzard proper (aka "Blizzard South"). They only ever made Diablo and Diablo 2.

Again, I think you're misunderstanding the issue here. It's perfectly fine to copy genre conventions. That's what players want to play. What's not fine is to copy things blindly. "Let's add more skills, RPGs are supposed to have lots of skills!"

That leads you to embarrassing moments like Wasteland 2's lead designer asking the backers to suggest more uses for the Charisma stat. And D:OS has changed a hell of a lot more than WL2, which is suggestive of similar issues, although I haven't followed closely enough to know the details.

 

[Roguey]

They've promised to improve the formula, but we all know the formula is what's wrong with the damn thing,.

I can point at the lack of great turn-based games and also claim the problem is with the ~formula~ and I'd be equally wrong.

Why did Divine Divinity have Diablo-esque combat? Because the publisher stepped in and demanded they change it. It would have never seen the light of day otherwise. Larian "copies" other developers no more than Obsidian does.

Why didn't DD or D2 have great Diablo-esque combat? Because Larian's system designers are cargo cult dummies.

Pillars of Eternity was built to please some imagined, heterogenous group of Baldur's Gate fans.

Considering the number of backers PoE got versus D:OS I'd hardly say it's "imagined."

Here's the ugly truth about "cargo cult game design": the industry made better games in the past, when these developers were kids or young adults.

I don't believe they did. Where are the great RPGs? I don't see any.

 

[Zeriel]

Roguey, you don't actually enjoy games (something you've admitted from time to time), so I could not name you any great RPGs any more than I could tell a rock about what it means to be human.

The premise of this website is that games used to be a lot better. Agree or disagree with it as you like, but that's why people are here.

 

[Duraframe300]

The premise of this website is

Well
That is a harder statement to make than you might think

 

[tuluse]

Roguey, you don't actually enjoy games (something you've admitted from time to time), so I could not name you any great RPGs any more than I could tell a rock about what it means to be human.

The premise of this website is that games used to be a lot better. Agree or disagree with it as you like, but that's why people are here.

You are incorrect. She does enjoy games, she just thinks every RPG made thus far is bad. This isn't really that outlandish of an argument. I wouldn't go so far as bad, but every RPG made does have wide gaping flaws in it.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

I prefer to refer to them as the gender they were born, post op pronouns are 2pc4me.

 

[Dr Schultz]

They've promised to improve the formula, but we all know the formula is what's wrong with the damn thing,.

I can point at the lack of great turn-based games and also claim the problem is with the ~formula~ and I'd be equally wrong.

Why did Divine Divinity have Diablo-esque combat? Because the publisher stepped in and demanded they change it. It would have never seen the light of day otherwise. Larian "copies" other developers no more than Obsidian does.

Why didn't DD or D2 have great Diablo-esque combat? Because Larian's system designers are cargo cult dummies.

Since when Diablo-esque combats are any good? If you ask me, Rogey, hack & slash combats are the worse in the genre, no matter who's charge. They suck tactically speaking and they suck in an action prospective. The only fun I've ever had with an hack & slash is related to certain loot/character systems. That's it. The actual gameplay of any diablo-like game is shit. So, Divine Divinity's combat sucks? What a surprise! The rest of the game is surprisingly good, nonetheless.


BTW: Original Sin combats don't suck. Actually they are extremely funny to play, both in single and in multiplayer, first and foremost because they encourage a creative play-style. Of course, given than Larians are cargo cult dummies, it could be out of luck :asd:....

 

[Roguey]

The only fun I've ever had with an hack & slash is related to certain loot/character systems. That's it.

A bar that Larian has never been able to meet.

The rest of the game is surprisingly good, nonetheless.

The core gameplay is entirely combat, which makes it a junk game.

Of course, given than Larians are cargo cult dummies, it could be out of luck :asd:....

Even Europeans can achieve some measure of success given enough iterations of similar concepts. It happened with Hitman and STALKER.

 

[Dr Schultz]

The only fun I've ever had with an hack & slash is related to certain loot/character systems. That's it.

A bar that Larian has never been able to meet.

See below.

The rest of the game is surprisingly good, nonetheless.

The core gameplay is entirely combat, which makes it a junk game.

The core gameplay is combat and exploration. The exploration part is good, which makes Divine Divinity a funnier experience than any trash-mob-feast hack&slashy shit out there.

Of course, given than Larians are cargo cult dummies, it could be out of luck :asd:....

Even Europeans can achieve some measure of success given enough iterations of similar concepts. It happened with Hitman and STALKER.

Sorry to spoil your US-centered view of the genre, Rogey, but S.T.A.L.K.R. (and I mean the whole series) has always been the best free-roaming RPG-like experience out there; Gothic I-II/Risen I are probably the only decent free roaming fantasy RPGs shipped in decades, CD Projekt makes Bioware-like interactive novels better than Bioware, Larians are the only RPG developers that have shipped something remotely original in recent years, Blackguards is the most interesting tactical-RPG since Knights of the Chalice, Underaill is a great piece of game design and M&MX, well, it's M&M.

Of course, all petty stuff compared to the great RPGs developed in US in recent years :asd....


Having said that, combat in Original Sin has nothing to do with combat in previous Larians game. This is their first take with turns.

 

[Roguey]

The core gameplay is combat and exploration. The exploration part is good, which makes Divine Divinity a funnier experience than any trash-mob-feast hack&slashy shit out there.

Walking around is not gameplay, much like how role playing isn't.

Sorry to spoil your US-centered view of the genre, Rogey, but S.T.A.L.K.R. (and I mean the whole series) has always been the best free-roaming RPG-like experience out there;

Hmm, no, CoP is the only one approaching good and even then it falls short in many places.

Gothic I-II/Risen I are probably the only decent free roaming fantasy RPGs shipped in decades,

Trash controls, systems, and content.

CD Projekt makes Bioware-like interactive novels better than Bioware,

This is downright delusional.

Eurotrash gonna eurotrash. And this isn't even just my opinion, considering Larian's poor showing in the RPG Codex top 70, and that's not even bringing up Beyond Divinity, one of the worst games of all time.