Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Infinitron]

Are we certain that he was referring to PoE with that gun anecdote? That sounds like more of a Fallout: New Vegas story.

Pillars has guns, and that would be an odd tangent, considering the presentation was specifically about PoE.

He's been known to go off on FO:NV tangents and considering we know Soren already misunderstood one thing...

No way to know for sure until the video is released.

 

[Immortal]

Are we certain that he was referring to PoE with that gun anecdote? That sounds like more of a Fallout: New Vegas story.

Pillars has guns, and that would be an odd tangent, considering the presentation was specifically about PoE.

He's been known to go off on FO:NV tangents and considering we know Soren already misunderstood one thing...

No way to know for sure until the video is released.

When in doubt.. go for the one game most people didn't hate. (and actually played to the end)
If Josh is really pulling another FO:NV design hat trick after PoE's launch.. what does that say about PoE.

Are we certain that he was referring to PoE with that gun anecdote? That sounds like more of a Fallout: New Vegas story.

Pillars has guns, and that would be an odd tangent, considering the presentation was specifically about PoE.

He did it before.. He seems to have no issue discussing FO:NV with a PoE banner behind him.

 

[Athelas]

When in doubt.. go for the one game most people didn't hate. (and actually played to the end)
If Josh is really pulling another FO:NV design hat trick after PoE's launch.. what does that say about PoE.

Uh, wouldn't that say that PoE's players are discerning enough to see through something like that?

 

[Roguey]

"Consumers don't know what they want" is a universal constant i.e. what people want and what they think and say they want aren't necessarily the same thing.. They say they want a more powerful gun but what they really wanted was for it to have more boom.

 

[Bubbles]

I think someone on the writing team has an obsession with fists:

He balls his hands into two shaking fists.

His hands curl into knobby fists.

At the end of the motion, his long fingers close into a fist.

His long fingers close into a fist.

He looks away quickly when you notice him, kneading his hands into squirming fists.

His hands tighten into fists, the scars sharp and white across his knuckles.

Durance's fists tighten, and he laughs.

The dwarf holds his fists in a tight grip.

The monk's eyes widen, his fists curl in a crackling barrage of popping joints.

As he squeezes his hands into fists, he seems to notice his gleaming, jeweled rings for the first time.

The rings gleam on his fingers as he balls them into fists.

He balls up his fist and digs his teeth into his index finger.

His fists ball up and he releases a long sigh.

Hiravias growls and his hands ball into fists.

Hiravias fumes and his little fists ball up.

Hiravias falls silent, his fists clenching.

He clenches his fist so tightly you hear a cacophony of crackling finger joints.

Durance's body continues to shake, his hands clenching white into fists.

Durance frowns, his hands clenching.

He clenches his hands into fists.

Ridai clenches his fists.

He clenches a gloved fist.

Her hand rests on the table, and she clenches it into a white-knuckled fist.

His eyes glitter black with quiet hatred, and his fist is clenched.

Trumbel clenches his fists helplessly, his face going red.

Pallegina stands over the dead ambassador's body, tears brimming in her eyes, her feathered hands clenched in frustration.

Pallegina's fists clench in frustration.

He clenches his heavily adorned hands.

He clenches his fingers over the edges of his silken sleeves.

His claw-like hands clench into fists.

Giacco clenches a fist.

He raises a fist in demonstration, clenching rotting fingers.

Her hands, clenched so hard her knuckles have turned white, betray her.

The vithrack clenches its clawed fist.

He clenches his fists in concentration.

 

[AwesomeButton]

This post is worthy of a

 

[Excidium II]

PoE's writing is beneath my fists.

 

[Athelas]

Can you cross-reference those lines with the writers who wrote them? I'm curious to see if anyone in the writing staff is predisposed towards...fisting.

 

[Bubbles]

The directions to the voice actors are also still in the text files, although Raedric's are far more verbose than any of the others:

00147: <ActorDirection>Calm and commanding. Note that there are two of these - 'let him' and 'let her'.</ActorDirection>
00517: <ActorDirection>Perfectly and fanatically convinced of his own righteousness. Note that this doesn't mean he's hammy about it. It's just an obvious statement of fact, to him, and until he's sneering about Kolsc's weakness he's eerily calm.</ActorDirection>
00842: <ActorDirection>Urging the player to reconsider, with logic. </ActorDirection>
01044: <ActorDirection>Sneering, at first - then ice cold. This is an offense to honor.</ActorDirection>
01222: <ActorDirection>Urging with logic. Despite intensity, his voice stays deceptively low. No hollering.</ActorDirection>
01334: <ActorDirection>Snide derision - he has much contempt for his cousin's weak ways.</ActorDirection>
01632: <ActorDirection>Promising influence by way of a bribe. Not a weaselly offer, just the promise of a lord.</ActorDirection>
01809: <ActorDirection>Resigned. Grim, ominous threat - he's saying it'd be better for the player's soul to be torn apart and forgotten than crawl along through another life.</ActorDirection>
01950: <ActorDirection>Weary, now that he's succeeded. Everything's caught up with him.</ActorDirection>
02094: <ActorDirection>Raedric's still a little ragged/on-edge here, though he's putting on the mask. Treason is the tipping point - he's found it in his wife, and it's her blood on the dagger.</ActorDirection>
04207: <ActorDirection>He's lost his wife, per his thinking - and here the shock of it begins to bleed into his speech.</ActorDirection>
04448: <ActorDirection>His Macbeth moment; he's murdered his wife, and been reminded of it, and he's convincing himself it was just even as he says it.</ActorDirection>

00375: <ActorDirection>His grand declaration. Try to avoid getting too theatrical, mind, it should be menacing. This guy is nuts.</ActorDirection>
00774: <ActorDirection>Dramatic segue into an honorable duel Raedric is sure he'll win. Arrogant certainty.</ActorDirection>
00968: <ActorDirection>Well aware that he is a monster - but also flush with even more fanatical self-righteousness</ActorDirection>
01032: <ActorDirection>Arrogant jeering</ActorDirection>
01878: <ActorDirection>Angry, disgusted by the player's interference. (The player is the 'thrice-cracked soul' he speaks of)</ActorDirection>

 

[Trashos]

Who's work was the Lord Raedric character, do we know? A very impressive piece of work by all means.

 

[Merlkir]

Jesus, I'm an idiot. I finally started WM1 and not remembering shit about where it begins or where I should go, I went straight to the Cragholdt Bluff siege. (all lvl 10) No fucking wonder I was getting killed so much.
That quest really isn't terribly descriptive and I didn't quite understand I didn't need to go there before WM. Ah well.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Should've enabled your quest compass.

 

[CptMace]

Who's work was the Lord Raedric character, do we know? A very impressive piece of work by all means.

Bobby Null iirc. Not sure though.

 

[Rev]

Who's work was the Lord Raedric character, do we know? A very impressive piece of work by all means.

Bobby Null iirc. Not sure though.

He was the area designer, coupled with another one (maybe Jorge Saldado but I don't know for sure). The writing was done by Carrie Patel, iirc.

 

[Roguey]

Who's work was the Lord Raedric character, do we know? A very impressive piece of work by all means.

Bobby Null iirc. Not sure though.

He was the area designer, coupled with another one (maybe Jorge Saldado but I don't know for sure). The writing was done by Carrie Patel, iirc.

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/7...e-a-look-at-raedrics-hold/page-3#entry1579169

At this point, Jorge needed to move on to work on Twin Elms. I assigned Olivia Veras, one of our newer area designers, to take the level home. She and I worked closely to refine the quest content, level flow, dialogue, combat pacing, loot, balance, etc. She did a fantastic job finishing the level and making it shine. She worked closely with Eric Fenstermaker and Carrie Patel, the narrative designers on the project, to make sure the narrative of the area blended well with the critical path elements of Gilded Vale.

As Eric said, every writer worked on everything.

 

[Dorateen]

Jesus, I'm an idiot. I finally started WM1 and not remembering shit about where it begins or where I should go, I went straight to the Cragholdt Bluff siege. (all lvl 10)

In years to come, going to Cragholdt Bluffs too early will be considered a rite of passage.

 

[Prime Junta]

There is a thread on 4chan right now discussing this game and everyone keeps accusing each other of being either secretly sensuki or roguey. its fucked

Actually it's me. It's all me. All of it.

 

[HatTrick]

There is a thread on 4chan right now discussing this game and everyone keeps accusing each other of being either secretly sensuki or roguey. its fucked

Usually the only threads on /v/ I see about this game are from some fag who is permanently assblasted about Sawyer who makes some dumb copypasta that devolves into him whining about liberals. So that thread you're talking about sounds like an improvement, honestly.

 

[Roguey]

Special treat on page 2! Relevant conclusions:

Some Good Things about PoE Attributes

• Hard to make non-viable characters.
• Easy to build a lot of unusual and viable character concepts.
• Not to hard to make different optimal builds that emphasize different things.
• Interrupt-focused barbarian vs. striking barbarian
• Gish muscle wizard vs. crowd control wizard
• Min-maxers can still go wild.
• Despite relative simplicity, mechanics allow for interesting analysis.

You Can't Make Everyone Happy

• That's true of any design, but we didn’t try to.
• Our implementation was within the audience's tolerance thresholds.
• Some prefer no attributes, some for stronger/different attributes.
• "We wish it were different, but it's not a deal-breaker."
• No actual data to support this, just anecdotes.
• Ideological purity doesn't necessarily = happier players.

Would We Do It Again?

•Yeah, probably.
• Benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
• We were happy with the gameplay.
• Players seem happy, too.

Would I Do It, Personally?

• Nope!
• Don't like the conflict with classes.
• Don't like class-based systems!

No mention of the gun anecdote in the slides, but yeah, that livetweeting guy did in fact misunderstand the part about bonuses.

 

[Neanderthal]

Just finished White March an I gotta say its obvious they've tried to improve it, but also I still find lotsa systems essentially unlikeable, when Sawyer says people are going, "We wish it were different, but it's not a deal-breaker." Theres too many instances o this, too many little niggling irritations an naff bits, overall I just can't like game cos o all these. Don't think its bad, I just don't like it an find it lacks charm, pity but nowt to be upset over. Probably wunt kickstart again based on these systems.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Sawyer says people are going, "We wish it were different, but it's not a deal-breaker."

It's not a deal breaker when I've already paid for it, sure, but I wouldn't have paid had I known combat would suck so bad.

• If something is required for viable play, why is it an option?

- Building my character is part of the game. How do we call a game where you can't fail, because the designer designed it so?
- Well, clicking on the enemies is also required for viable play. Good thing that didn't get fixed too.

- I wish Josh had advertised this genius approach to attributes in his 2013 talk. Instead he was stoking the nostalgia, talking about "IE feels" and how important it was to recreate that experience.

- I wonder if there is a retard on this earth who would go "Today I shall be roleplaying The clumsy, determined rogue. Gee, I'm so thankful Josh Sawyer thought of my roleplaying needs!"

• Mechanics and content balanced around one reinforcing the other.

- Read "A side effect of reducing the importance of base attributes is that we didn't have to think about designing content specific to class archetypes. More inclusiveness and less work - that's two rabbits with one stone".

- The fact that it's easier to play when you disregard attributes altogether, because of the lack of impact of upping by 1-2 points through items, speaks enough of how good this system is.

• Ideological purity doesn't necessarily = happier players.

- I'm glad he has realized this, though it took him designing one game with a messed up attribute system.

 

[Trashos]

Sawyer seems to refrain from designing hard games. FNV was extremely easy even for an action-retard like me (first FPS game I ever played). PoE is very easy too for a game of its kind.

Leveling up is all you need to do for 99% of PoE content even on PotD. Eg, Weapon Focus gives you a bonus to Accuracy that is equivalent to merely 2 level ups, while leveling up also gives you additional bonuses. So the game mostly plays itself. How anyone thought this is a good idea for the game's prestige is beyond me.

Other than that (and the unacceptable encounter design) I like the game, but it could have been so much more. I am still considering buying the expansion. But it is bound to make the vanilla content easier, and I am not sure I want to spend money to make my game even easier.

 

[Infinitron]

• Ideological purity doesn't necessarily = happier players.

- I'm glad he has realized this, though it took him designing one game with a messed up attribute system.

You're assuming he's talking about his ideological purity.

Would We Do It Again?

• Yeah, probably.

 

[AwesomeButton]

• Ideological purity doesn't necessarily = happier players.

- I'm glad he has realized this, though it took him designing one game with a messed up attribute system.

You're assuming he's talking about his ideological purity.

No, that was my sarcasm. I'm sure he didn't mean he was wrong.

"Players don't react bad to it" sounds like the euphemism for "If we could make the attribute system next to irrelevant, and our game still sold somewhere in the 900 000s of copies, I guess we got away with it."

Also, I've got to admire the irony of producing an attribute system with the intention to avoid stereotypical distibution of points according to character class, and ending up with a system which is actually worse, according to the same logic, because the distribution is still stereotypical, just not per class but regardless of class, i.e. every class' every attribute will tend to be in the mid teens. Way to go, so much more interesting than DnD!

The main reason I find this attribute system deplorable is because I see in it an expression of this philosophy: http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesl...-when-everyone-wins-how-do-kids-learn-to-win/

 

[Infinitron]

ending up with a system which is actually worse, according to the same logic, because the distribution is still stereotypical, just not per class but regardless of class, i.e. every class' every attribute will tend to be in the mid teens.

So what you're saying is classless RPGs are inherently bad because they don't even have the classes for different stereotypical distributions in the first place?

Yes, absent the constraints imposed by a primary stat/dump stat oriented system, making a middle of the road character is intuitively the smart and safe thing to do because making your character really weak in a particular area could conceivably come back to bite you in the ass at some point in the game. Min-maxing should be risky. But that's not a "stereotype", it's more like an emergent mathematical property of such systems.