Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[AwesomeButton]

So what you're saying is classless RPGs are inherently bad because they don't even have the classes for different stereotypical distributions in the first place?

That's Reductio ad absurdum and twisting my words. No, I'm not saying that, obviously. I'm saying it's worse for the purposes of producing an IE-like game.

One of my favorite games is Arcanum, and that's classless. And a lot more fun than PoE when it comes to character building.

 

[Infinitron]

One thing that I think may have gone unrecognized is that a lot of how PoE's attribute systems work stems less from what the attributes affect and more from how they're distributed. Look at these charts:

Even if AD&D's attributes kept on affecting the same stuff, just switching to a linear distribution model would have made them play in a more PoE-like manner. You wouldn't have to go for that 18/xx. 15 or 16 would be decent too. Characters could be more diverse. They wouldn't necessarily have much reason to be diverse, but the option would be more viable.

 

[Parabalus]

Also, I've got to admire the irony of producing an attribute system with the intention to avoid stereotypical distibution of points according to character class, and ending up with a system which is actually worse, according to the same logic, because the distribution is still stereotypical, just not per class but regardless of class, i.e. every class' every attribute will tend to be in the mid teens. Way to go, so much more interesting than DnD!

The main reason I find this attribute system deplorable is because I see in it an expression of this philosophy: http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesl...-when-everyone-wins-how-do-kids-learn-to-win/

I really don't get this sentiment.

If I make a fighter in BG2, I pump STR,DEX,CON and put the leftovers into CHA (or int for Ilithid breakpoints). There is no choice, I can either make a fighter with bad statistics or good ones (dual classing notwithstanding).

In PoE , I could allocate the same, and he would do a lot of damage, but he'd have low Will and be severely penalized in dialogues, not to mention his (de)buffs wouldn't last. I could cut Might or Con ( since I presumably don't need double Fort) and pump Int, but then I either gut his damage output or make him too susceptible to random unmitigatable damage. If I spread them around evenly he's bland and misses out on most high attribute checks. Most importantly, I can have fun with all of these options, instead of a binary suck-or-not.

If you find you can't feel a distinct difference in playstyles you are probably playing on <PotD, it's hard to notice a distinction if everything is too easy.

PoE has issues but the attributes are the biggest step forward from ADnD crap.

 

[Roguey]

Sawyer seems to refrain from designing hard games.

He has to make games Obsidian's designers and playtesters can complete. People who are good at playing games (regardless of genre) typically don't join role playing video game developers.

 

[Trashos]

Sawyer seems to refrain from designing hard games.

He has to make games Obsidian's designers and playtesters can complete. People who are good at playing games (regardless of genre) typically don't join role playing video game developers.

I don't mind the easy difficulty of the Normal and the Hard mode myself, I understand that. But there is no way anyone can argue that the hardest difficulty of the game should be easy. Do these people actually believe that the game's sales are going to suffer if PotD is very challenging? The only thing that will happen is that hardcore gamers will have a lot to discuss on various forums thus advertising your game for free.

What do i have to discuss with the refined gentlemen here now? How we are steamrolling everything?

And I am certain that they have testers that would appreciate some more challenge on PotD. Some of them are around here.

 

[Starwars]

I think PotD on the main campaign could've been harder but PotD for the White March wrecked me pretty badly at times. At least on the first part, haven't tried it on the second part yet.

 

[Theldaran]

I really don't get this sentiment.

If I make a fighter in BG2, I pump STR,DEX,CON and put the leftovers into CHA (or int for Ilithid breakpoints). There is no choice, I can either make a fighter with bad statistics or good ones (dual classing notwithstanding).

In PoE , I could allocate the same, and he would do a lot of damage, but he'd have low Will and be severely penalized in dialogues, not to mention his (de)buffs wouldn't last. I could cut Might or Con ( since I presumably don't need double Fort) and pump Int, but then I either gut his damage output or make him too susceptible to random unmitigatable damage. If I spread them around evenly he's bland and misses out on most high attribute checks. Most importantly, I can have fun with all of these options, instead of a binary suck-or-not.

If you find you can't feel a distinct difference in playstyles you are probably playing on <PotD, it's hard to notice a distinction if everything is too easy.

PoE has issues but the attributes are the biggest step forward from ADnD crap.

Isn't that just demerits of AD&D's system, and not merits of PoE's system?

AD&D is ANCIENT, man. I understand very well the need of designing a modern system that at the same time doesn't use the D&D license, but as it is, PoE's attributes seem bland and with slight impact.

Still, one can't deny that Sawyer got his objectives right. Min-maxing is bad in the game. But still some degree of min-maxing is desirable (at least for some classes). I'm reminded of when in KotOR's d20 of sorts, you were heavily penalised for getting high rolls, but still it was pretty convenient to have a starting 16, especially if you put in Strength and were going two-handed.

 

[Ninjerk]

That's Reductio ad absurdum and twisting my words. No, I'm not saying that, obviously. I'm saying it's worse for the purposes of producing an IE-like game.

One of my favorite games is Arcanum, and that's classless. And a lot more fun than PoE when it comes to character building.

Infinitron wouldn't do that. Not in an Obsidian thread.

 

[AwesomeButton]

That's Reductio ad absurdum and twisting my words. No, I'm not saying that, obviously. I'm saying it's worse for the purposes of producing an IE-like game.

One of my favorite games is Arcanum, and that's classless. And a lot more fun than PoE when it comes to character building.

Infinitron wouldn't do that. Not in an Obsidian thread.

<Acknowledge this user's agenda>

 

[Immortal]

RE: Sawyer making games easy.

Is that true? Normies frequently complain about the difficulty of FNV and there are reviews where reviewers proudly claim that PoE is brutally difficult on easy.

 

[Excidium II]

Requesting Roguey

 

[Theldaran]

It's brutally difficult if you don't know how to exploit it away, that is.

 

[Fairfax]

Looks like Sawyer didn't have the balls to defend 4E as the best edition in public.

 

[Immortal]

I am currently playing PoE on POTD.. I haven't exploited or even really read anything. I am randomly equipping people with armor and jacking everyone's Might to as high as it will go.
I have had zero issues.

The game is not hard. Zerging Mentality with pumped Might has gotten me to act 2. I am waiting for the game to slap me down and say "No, That won't work any more".. It hasn't yet.

 

[Theldaran]

Sawyer would probably complain that Might-maxing is not the way it's supposed to be played.

 

[Immortal]

Sawyer would probably complain that Might-maxing is not the way it's supposed to be played.

More reason to question if this game really has the depth that everyone claims in theory / on paper that it does.
If I can muddle my way through with a retarded group of characters without strategic planning at all on POTD.. why should I give a shit? I thought this was the be all end all?

If By Act 4 I haven't died once.. I am making a rant thread about how Infinitron and Prime Junta are full of shit.

 

[Infinitron]

Sawyer would probably complain that Might-maxing is not the way it's supposed to be played.

He's Josh Sawyer, not Tim Schafer.

 

[Excidium II]

You are the 1% Immortal

 

[Immortal]

You are the 1% Immortal

You should know by now that I take all sarcastic comments literally as compliments. It makes me feel like a big man.

 

[Excidium II]

Well I do mean it, average PoE player is a tragedy.

 

[AwesomeButton]

You said you are pumping up might, does this mean you are playing with a custom party, and if yes, of how many?

I haven't played PotD with a custom party, but I expect it won't pose a challenge, given that I can barely make it with recruiting the game's NPCs. If I'm allowed to have 6 characters from the start, with customized attributes, classes chosen by me, that would probably make it a cakewalk. Sorry.

The fact is that no one really took the time to create thought-out encounters for the base game, then test them, and fine-tune them. And how would they - only two people on the team had played the IE games. They had no idea what they were doing with encounters until the end of production. Just look at the difference between TWM and the base game encounter design.

 

[Theldaran]

But but but... you can't max out Might! There's no overpowered attribute in this game, and no dump stats! That way you will miss lots of wonderfully designed quests, and mighty unique items, since you don't have a good assortment of stats! And you can't just do the combat since we made it intentionally dull and non-rewarding! You're destroying the game!

 

[Trashos]

Just to make myself clear, PoE's systems do support some complex tactics and strategies; however, you don't need them for most of the content. (I am talking about the base game- don't know about the expansions).

Imo, the correct way to think about PoE's difficulty is to compare it with other RTwP games. My contribution is the following: PoE is easier than SoA and DAO.

 

[Immortal]

You said you are pumping up might, does this mean you are playing with a custom party, and if yes, of how many?

I haven't played PotD with a custom party, but I expect it won't pose a challenge, given that I can barely make it with recruiting the game's NPCs. If I'm allowed to have 6 characters from the start, with customized attributes, classes chosen by me, that would probably make it a cakewalk. Sorry.

The fact is that no one really took the time to create thought-out encounters for the base game, then test them, and fine-tune them. And how would they - only two people on the team had played the IE games. They had no idea what they were doing with encounters until the end of production. Just look at the difference between TWM and the base game encounter design.

I have a custom made rogue and my main character which is a wizard. Then I have Eder, Aloth, Durance and samsquatch man who dies every fight.. gonna swap him for the druid dude cause I never used him before.

 

[Excidium II]

Easier than DAO is a bit exaggerated.