Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[rusty_shackleford]

As fascinating as all this discussion is about whether or not the Paladins in Pillars actually qualify as Paladins is, the real question should be whether or not the Wizards count as Wizards. This sounds like a question only Meredoth can answer.

Why are they called wizards if they don't use wisdom?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

If it's the "setting" than make up your own archetype. They turned the bard into a "chanter" they could have gone the extra mile with the Paladin too and save themselves the trouble of people constantly asking to roleplay the classical Paladin (check the Obsidian forums it is full of threads of people asking how to build a typical Paladin).

What! I do hate Sawyer anon but you do say make own archetype anon when they did do anon! They did! They did make own archetype anon and I do know anon because you are many complaint anon that Pillars Paladin archetype is not same anon as Dungeons Dragons archetype anon! Pillars did make own archetype anon! What! You do say Chanter is extra mile anon from Bard anon so you did only want Paladin different name anon! If Sawyer did another not necessary change name nonsense anon would you acceptance Pillars Paladin anon! Would you! Do not say they did not make new archetype anon when you entire complaint anon is it too hard to play classic archetype anon! Do not! You did only want change name anon! You did!

I am never sure if I understand you correctly but I think that is Lyric Suite's particular bone to pick with respect to PoE's Paladins. Had they been named differently he might have been content.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I'd be fine with them if they were just named Crusader or Templar or something.
I'm a member of the exclusive "names should mean something" club

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I'd be fine with them if they were just named Crusader or Templar or something.

Just calling them Oathkeepers would have made more sense.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I'd be fine with them if they were just named Crusader or Templar or something.

Just calling them Oathkeepers would have made more sense.

I always figured they should've called the class Zealot or even Champion or something. It's funny to me that with how many dumb name changes they made for things that are the same (e.g. xaurips, fampyrs, etc.), they didn't change Paladin.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I'd be fine with them if they were just named Crusader or Templar or something.

Just calling them Oathkeepers would have made more sense.

I always figured they should've called the class Zealot or even Champion or something. It's funny to me that with how many dumb name changes they made for things that are the same (e.g. xaurips, fampyrs, etc.), they didn't change Paladin.

Probably no Welsh equivalent for it.

 

[Grunker]

“2/10 they named a class wrong a serious blemish and design shortcoming” - rustyreviews.com

 

[Orud]

Just call them knight if you don't want to call them Paladins.

I just want to protest that early knightly orders (like the Templars) are referenced indirectly as the roots of the Paladin class in 'the complete Paladin' (since that book is brought up for some reason) and that the rituals and oats of knights were an ever evolving thing across history. I see this as the reason as to why strict adherence to 'lawful good alignment' was also dropped in later D&D editions in favor of the importance of oats.

A Paladin is not a class that must adhere to D&D's alignment system, nor spellcasting system or any other game's specific systems, else you'd only have Paladins in AD&D.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

“2/10 they named a class wrong a serious blemish and design shortcoming” - rustyreviews.com

It's certainly something. Names have power and all that.

 

[Grunker]

It’s certainly autism

 

[Cryomancer]

As fascinating as all this discussion is about whether or not the Paladins in Pillars actually qualify as Paladins is, the real question should be whether or not the Wizards count as Wizards. This sounds like a question only Meredoth can answer.

In lore? Yes. In mechanics? No.

Pillars is too dissociated from mechanics and lore. Wizards are supposed to be intellectuals in this game, however, making a low INT wiz is not only viable but optional for certain builds.

Had they been named differently he might have been content.

Agreed. They should have been named Crusader or something similar

 

[NJClaw]

I'd be fine with them if they were just named Crusader or Templar or something.
I'm a member of the exclusive "names should mean something" club

"Paladin" means something in the context of videogame mechanics. It basically means "a class that fights slightly worse than a Fighter, but can use some sort of divine power". The name of a class comes with certain gameplay expectations, and PoE meets them. On the other hand, "Crusader" and "Templar" mean nothing. Even for games that don't have a Paladin class (link, link, link), you can find people on the internet asking for "Paladin" builds, and they mean "Paladin" as in "an armored guy that can sustain attacks, buff, heal, and support others". Not only they mean that, but that meaning is also clear to basically everyone who intervenes in the discussion. Words have meaning, you just don't like the meaning of this specific word in the context of videogames.

The trade-off here was between giving 98% of the players a clearly understandable term and satisfying the need of inter-media consistency of a bunch of autists.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I'd be fine with them if they were just named Crusader or Templar or something.
I'm a member of the exclusive "names should mean something" club

"Paladin" means something in the context of videogame mechanics. It basically means "a class that fights slightly worse than a Fighter, but can use some sort of divine power". The name of a class comes with certain gameplay expectations, and PoE meets them. On the other hand, "Crusader" and "Templar" mean nothing. Even for games that don't have a Paladin class (link, link, link), you can find people on the internet asking for "Paladin" builds, and they mean "Paladin" as in "an armored guy that can sustain attacks, buff, heal, and support others". Not only they mean that, but that meaning is also clear to basically everyone who intervenes in the discussion. Words have meaning, you just don't like the meaning of this specific word in the context of videogames.

The trade-off here was between giving 98% of the players a clearly understandable term and satisfying the need of inter-media consistency of a bunch of autists.

no

 

[ERYFKRAD]

"Paladin" means something in the context of videogame mechanics. It basically means "a class that fights slightly worse than a Fighter, but can use some sort of divine power".

I find this reduction somewhat perplexing.
I cannot think of any crpg in particular where this is true either.
Ultima? As far as I can tell, Paladins have the same proficiencies as a fighter + spells.
D&D? Much the same, as proficient as a fighter and some spells to boot.
Elder Scrolls? The games are basically classless and a comparison is moot.

Where does this notion of yours stem from? Jrpgs? World of Warcraft?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Paladins in D&D were always meant to be better than fighter(same with rangers), which is why they have such high attribute score restrictions and limitations on how they can play. They were intended to be rare and difficult to play as.

 

[Bigg Boss]

The first time I saw a Paladin it was in Warcraft 2. I asked what God it worshipped and it said

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The first time I saw a Paladin it was in Warcraft 2. I asked what God it worshipped and it said

Even per lore, warcraft paladins are far more than crappy fighters with healing abilities.
Arthas purging Stratholme was unambiguously one of the best examples of a Lawful Good action in any video game.

Arthas didn't fall because of Arthas.
Arthas fell because Uther abandoned him and failed in his duties as a paladin.

 

[Cryomancer]

Fighter with divine magic? No!!! Paladins must be Eunuchs. People who disagree never heard about Lacrymas amazing setting.

 

[Bigg Boss]

Warcraft 3 was gay though.

 

[NJClaw]

"Paladin" means something in the context of videogame mechanics. It basically means "a class that fights slightly worse than a Fighter, but can use some sort of divine power".

I find this reduction somewhat perplexing.
I cannot think of any crpg in particular where this is true either.
Ultima? As far as I can tell, Paladins have the same proficiencies as a fighter + spells.
D&D? Much the same, as proficient as a fighter and some spells to boot.
Elder Scrolls? The games are basically classless and a comparison is moot.

Where does this notion of yours stem from? Jrpgs? World of Warcraft?

Come on, you understand what I mean. Maybe "worse" wasn't the best term, but usually paladins sacrifice some of the raw fighting power of fighters in exchange for some kind of special ability. What this "raw fighting power" is depends on the system, but this is true for all D&D videogames, depending on the edition they're based on:
- AD&D AD&D 2E: weapon proficiencies
- 3.x: feats
- 5E: extra attack, ability score improvements/feats

 

[Lyric Suite]

Changing the name wouldn't have been sufficient, the whole class screams holy knight:

https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Paladin_abilities

As i'm playing the game, i'm having an hard time harmonizing the above with what the Darcozzi are supposed to be.

 

[FreeKaner]

uhhh you mean like this?

Spoiler

Which edition of DND is this? Because this was already over at least by 3rd edition, definitely by 4th edition. I can't remember it right now but I think even 2nd edition was leaning more towards crusader orders.

Mind you, I don't dislike religious order knights. In fact ironically I think having multiple religious military orders to akin to distinctions between Knights Templar, Knights Hospitaller, and then ones that specialize in particular regions like Teutonic Knights or Knights of Rhodes & Malta would be very good for settings rather than this vague "Paladin" knight-errant.

However as it is, Paladins are neither here nor there. They need to be split between feudal lord military orders and religious orders. PoE is closer to this but because of lack of actual God or relevant deities they fail. Indeed religion is so terribly done in these fantasy settings, always some sort of diluted pagan religions with local deities. It seems fantasy writers fedora autism won't let them actually have meaningful deities or religions in their games. However there is some hint from Rekke in POE2 that setting could have deities or a God unrelated to the gods we encounter but unfortunately it just remains as a small hint and devoid of the main setting we play.

Again, if you're a fan of chivalrous Paladins in RPGs, I'd recommend picking up or acquiring a copy of the Complete Paladin's Handbook. It focuses heavily on the aspects of paladins that should matter.

This is more my speed:

However there is no Middle-eastern studio to make RPGs in such settings. I'll be happy if Westerners manage to represent Western settings well though. I think the way Paladin orders being represented as anything between mercenary orders to orders of certain regional palaces to religiously motivated ones was a good start. In this regard Sawyer being a history-buff who also likes religious themes, should have done a better job.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

- AD&D: weapon proficiencies

A paladin who is using a weapon he's proficient in is at least as good as an equivalent fighter.

Your argument should have been that with equivalent XP, a paladin is a lower level than a fighter. Which makes sense.

 

[Bigg Boss]

XP are numbers and numbers are bad.

 

[NJClaw]

- AD&D: weapon proficiencies

A paladin who is using a weapon he's proficient in is at least as good as an equivalent fighter.

Your argument should have been that with equivalent XP, a paladin is a lower level than a fighter. Which makes sense.

Now you're making me question my entire life. I'm fairly sure that in BG and IWD fighters, unlike paladins, can achieve mastery, high mastery, and grand mastery in any weapon. Please don't tell me my entire existence is a lie.