Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Decado]

Why are people talking about PoE 3? Last I heard it was extremely unlikely.

The low sales for PoE 2 come down to absolutely shit marketing and goofy design choices like a trillion sub-classes and a 5 person party. Fix that and some other things, and you're good to go. You'll at least have a better chance of getting back some of your older fans.

 

[Butter]

That's Unity for you. Afaik, it's very difficult to have interior areas connected to exterior ones. To the point that it's not worth even trying to do it.

I think it's actually the camera. Interiors and exteriors don't use the same camera angle in Pillars.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

PoE is not terrible or anything, but it has 2 major problems, imo:

1. Everything is overwritten. The plot itself is good (mostly), the lore is good, the base dialogue is good, but whenever 2 sentences would do, they write 5-6. So you end up with a lot of overwritten filter to read through that adds nothing but annoyance. If they pared every dialogue down to essential parts, it would significantly improve.

2. The combat, in a dumb nod to powergamers/munchkins, is horrible. It has many of the same problems as Kingmaker, they basically look at BG games, which had excellent combat, and think oh it's too easy for powergamers, let's make it a lot more challenging. And almost every way in which they make it challenging destroys fun. Old school RPGs had a nice organization to them, tanks in front, healers and mages behind, everything was smooth and fun.The new gen iso games (with some exceptions) have tons of mobs that ignore the frontline and have ways of getting to the backline. And all mobs in PoE can cc, many don't even need to take a dedicated action to CC, they just fucking CC out of their ass by being near you. So the end result is a fucking messy blob of shit in every fight, with enemies all over your backline, tanks next to useless, and the entire game coming down to CC or be CC'ed. This is not fun at all.

In all honesty, I must agree with the item n. 1 even though I find that (sometimes) a good thing in RPGs myself.
The item n. 2 seems rather incorrect.
a. It's not a *bad* combat AI where an enemy tries to target your backline all the while the PCs have much more similar means to stop such attempts. It's actually what RPGs strive for in general.
b. The beginning of the game tends to be rather inconsistent in PC-to-Enemy stats ratio. I give you that. But that lasts only for like 2 hours or so. So, yeah every other mob has got some de-buffing attack. However, if the PC is on the same or higher level, it's rarely a concern because a mob rarely even properly hits, much less conveys added effects with such grazes--if the PC's gear is at least at an okay level or better. Also, PCs have way more skills in that regard. And if the mob is higher at levels, well, what do you expect? Lvl 3 PC "I kinda know how to swing in three directions and I've learned how to throw a javelin the other day." beating fighters from a renown goblin tribe who have fought in plethora of skirmishes, using guerilla and team tactics, gobbling up potions for dinner for many years?
c. Tanks are not useless. Paying the price of engagement-break works, interrupts, action speed, assessing enemy assasins and glass-cannons and targeting them as soon as possible works, PC's CC work, PC's debuffs work, Mages casting Iron Skins, Priests casting Inspirations, Barbarians shouting -5 debuffs, etc., all that works. You are entitled to not like what PoE combat looks like, but the above seen accussations of the combat mechanics seem ignorant at best.

Which difficulty did you play it on? Maybe on storybook mode it's different, but on Hard/PotD, tanks are nearly useless. They can hold a few trash mobs, but because there are way more enemies (with enemy summons, you are routinely swamped with twice the number of enemies on PotD for example), enemies often run around the tanks and beeline for the backline, many enemies have abilities to teleport to the backline directly, if you try to bottleneck the enemy, the dumb AI often puts tanks out of position and enemies run through to the backline, etc. With enemies constantly cc'ing your entire party in a billion different ways, that also adds ways for them to get at the backline on the regular.

And before someone says something dumb, this is not about the difficulty, I am close to completing the game on PotD/Expert Mode, I completed similarly designed Kingmaker on one of the harder difficulties, I am just saying this approach kills fun. Different roles used to be distinct, combat was organized and fun, now it's all a giant clusterfuck every time, and the backline spends most of the time trying to escape aggro and casting cc spam.

 

[Nikanuur]

Which difficulty did you play it on? Maybe on storybook mode it's different, but on Hard/PotD, tanks are nearly useless. They can hold a few trash mobs, but because there are way more enemies (with enemy summons, you are routinely swamped with twice the number of enemies on PotD for example), enemies often run around the tanks and beeline for the backline, many enemies have abilities to teleport to the backline directly, if you try to bottleneck the enemy, the dumb AI often puts tanks out of position and enemies run through to the backline, etc. With enemies constantly cc'ing your entire party in a billion different ways, that also adds ways for them to get at the backline on the regular.

And before someone says something dumb, this is not about the difficulty, I am close to completing the game on PotD/Expert Mode, I completed similarly designed Kingmaker on one of the harder difficulties, I am just saying this approach kills fun. Different roles used to be distinct, combat was organized and fun, now it's all a giant clusterfuck every time, and the backline spends most of the time trying to escape aggro and casting cc spam.

Hard. Only some of this seems to be my experience though, as "it happens" doesn't seem to translate as "constant" in my game, I suppose, and contrary to your feelings I find the combat features working and creative.
Not saying that I didn't get frustrated sometimes, but that's the world of gaming in general.

 

[Eisenheinrich]

Josh is pretty much aware of his legacy in video games:

 

[duskvile]

Why are people talking about PoE 3? Last I heard it was extremely unlikely.

The low sales for PoE 2 come down to absolutely shit marketing and goofy design choices like a trillion sub-classes and a 5 person party. Fix that and some other things, and you're good to go. You'll at least have a better chance of getting back some of your older fans.

PoE 3 will at some degree go for BG3 fame. It won't be at that scope but it's fine. More reactivity and bigger maps with less loading screens would make it more attractive to Larian fanbase.

I think it's actually the camera. Interiors and exteriors don't use the same camera angle in Pillars.

I wonder if houses would be 3D objects with textures projected on them? Then one could make interiors connected with exterior.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Point 1:

mediocrepoet NJClaw Zed Duke of Banville




Point 2: Pillars of Eternity combat sucks glorious ass on harder difficulty settings, much in the same way as Kingmaker: Shitfinder.

It's what I call the Dark Souls effect, but in this case, in isometric format. Difficulty becomes an end in and of itself in such games, as opposed to just means to an end (enjoyable part of an overall game). Sawyer, much like the Fowlcat people, must've looked at Baldur's Gate and how certain grognards play it with difficulty mods, and thought, base DnD gameplay is too easy, let's increase the difficulty.

Now, this would be ok if the difficulty increase came with something logical, coherent, entertaining, like say better enemy AI, enemies using terrain or formation more effectively, etc. Instead, much like how From Software increased game difficulty from Dark Souls 2 onward via stupid nonsensical shit (enemies having infinite stamina, 360 attacks and tracking, parry delay frames, giant bosses hopping around like fleas, etc), these iso-dunces did the same thing to tactical RPGs.

Let's spawn twice as many enemies on the hardest difficulty, so they can run around the frontline! Let's give half the enemies teleport abilities, or spawn them behind the fight, or give them some other bs ability to jump on the backline (Ondrite Monks come to mind in PoE). Oh, and if that's not enough, I know, let's inflate their stats to the point that it takes 3 level 8 spells to kill one pleb cocksucker! Let's give dragons insta-gib breath, and 360 cone cc, and 30 ads, cause why not? Who'd face a dragon anyway, Sawyer sure as hell wouldn't on his bike. Oh and of course, lets give every enemy cocksucker a CC spam, and not just one CC, but like 5 different CC's per enemy group. Just to keep the player fuckers guessing.

The end result of this shit is Sawyer somehow managed to convert the fun well organized DnD fights of Baldur's Gate into complete clusterfucks, half the enemies constantly riding your backline, everybody constantly pushed/pulled out of position, and non-stop CC spam. The entire combat system comes down to buffing/debuffing, CC or be CC'ed, and cheese like using bottlenecks. Et tu Sawyer? What have you done to my beloved DnD?

 

[Lacrymas]

PotD is one of the few well-done difficulties in RPGs, I don't know what you are smoking. Baldur's Gate has well organized fights? Lol. How the combat plays out in PoE depends on your party composition. You can have a party with 0 CC, but also be impossible to CC in turn. The problem with PoE's (both 1 and 2) combat is that if a tactic works on one mob pack, it works on 99% of the others too. That's without mentioning that you become freakishly overpowered by lvl 10.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

First Pillars had fun combat before they fucked it up with constant "balance". Most retarded shit was nerfing all accuracy bonuses from perception and items, it's so "fun" to miss half your attacks and spells!

 

[almondblight]

Which difficulty did you play it on? Maybe on storybook mode it's different, but on Hard/PotD, tanks are nearly useless. They can hold a few trash mobs, but because there are way more enemies (with enemy summons, you are routinely swamped with twice the number of enemies on PotD for example), enemies often run around the tanks and beeline for the backline, many enemies have abilities to teleport to the backline directly, if you try to bottleneck the enemy, the dumb AI often puts tanks out of position and enemies run through to the backline, etc. With enemies constantly cc'ing your entire party in a billion different ways, that also adds ways for them to get at the backline on the regular.

Can't say I agree, I've found tanks pretty useful even in open terrain, and never experienced much enemy crowd control. When tanks go down my back line usually falls pretty quickly. Though the two times I've played (both on PotD) I've burned out and started over right before the pit, so I've yet to see the very end of the game.

One thing I absolutely hate about PotD is that you can't lower the difficulty to check out other difficulty options. I'm curious about the other difficulty levels, but don't want to go through the boring hour long prolog again to see what it's like (probably more like 2-3 hours to go through the prolog, get Eder, Aloth, and Durance, and go into the temple of Eothas). PotD feels about right for the boss fights, but a lot of the other battles are tedious. Going through those stun locking fish people in the White March was OK the first couple of fights, but got really tedious after that.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Fucking Ondrite Monks are the worst. They just kick your front line out of the way and/or teleport next to wizard/priest/chanter. And you gotta focus fire them, because the more damage they take, the more damage they do, and on PotD they have a ton of health/endurance, and then they sometimes summon elemental monk forms. Basically you gotta keep them cc'ed the entire fight or you are fucked. PoE combat in a nutshell.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

Ondrite Monks

That's WM DLCs, both have terrible combat design. Pillars was at its best at vanilla, everything after that was terrible. I have 500 hours in the game and never finished WM2.

 

[luj1]

The low sales for PoE 2 come down to absolutely shit marketing

dont be dumb

people just didnt like PoE 1 enough, its crystal clear

 

[Skinwalker]

Is it still shit?

 

[Grunker]

Fucking Ondrite Monks are the worst. They just kick your front line out of the way and/or teleport next to wizard/priest/chanter. And you gotta focus fire them, because the more damage they take, the more damage they do, and on PotD they have a ton of health/endurance, and then they sometimes summon elemental monk forms. Basically you gotta keep them cc'ed the entire fight or you are fucked. PoE combat in a nutshell.

Some of the best designed fights in the entire series. Glorious on PotD.

Git gud

 

[Piotrovitz]

Let's spawn twice as many enemies on the hardest difficulty, so they can run around the frontline! Let's give half the enemies teleport abilities, or spawn them behind the fight, or give them some other bs ability to jump on the backline (Ondrite Monks come to mind in PoE). Oh, and if that's not enough, I know, let's inflate their stats to the point that it takes 3 level 8 spells to kill one pleb cocksucker! Let's give dragons insta-gib breath, and 360 cone cc, and 30 ads, cause why not?

The end result of this shit is Sawyer somehow managed to convert the fun well organized DnD fights of Baldur's Gate into complete clusterfucks, half the enemies constantly riding your backline, everybody constantly pushed/pulled out of position, and non-stop CC spam.

You seem to be upset as fuck about the fact that AI behaves in an actually intuitive way - i.e. ignoring low threat tin cans and going straight for more dangerous glass cannons (though this is the case more in Tyranny than in PoE), which is what any human player would also do. When facing a group of multiple different mobs who are you focusing on in the first place - slow, low DPS, high miss ratio HP sponges, or rather low HP but more lethal backline of mages/ciphers/rogues? It's like you're butthurt because AI is not retarded.

As for the dragon fights - they are supposed to be hard and all are optional, what the fuck else would you want?

If you want simple and retarded mechanics of having a tank with some kind of taunt ability absorbing all attacks while your backline is decimating everyone then go play something like Dragon Age.

Like Lacrymas said, PotD is one of the very few well done high difficulties in cRPGs, with only problem that with right party composition you can become OPd way too fast.

 

[Nikanuur]

[Can't say I agree, I've found tanks pretty useful even in open terrain, and never experienced much enemy crowd control. When tanks go down my back line usually falls pretty quickly. Though the two times I've played (both on PotD) I've burned out and started over right before the pit, so I've yet to see the very end of the game.

One thing I absolutely hate about PotD is that you can't lower the difficulty to check out other difficulty options. I'm curious about the other difficulty levels, but don't want to go through the boring hour long prolog again to see what it's like (probably more like 2-3 hours to go through the prolog, get Eder, Aloth, and Durance, and go into the temple of Eothas). PotD feels about right for the boss fights, but a lot of the other battles are tedious. Going through those stun locking fish people in the White March was OK the first couple of fights, but got really tedious after that.

Rising difficulties should be like: more damage from everyone, champion monsters have more help and/or skills, bosses have new phases, basic mobs come in larger numbers, etc. This all-stat-bloating, HP included, is kinda meh in any game.

 

[razvedchiki]

my only grip with the POTD difficulty is that the firearms require specific min/maxed build to be effective ( ie by effective i mean to delete a trash mob with one shot), i often gave everyone a firearm as an opener but frequently they couldnt kill a xaurip with a salvo of 6.

 

[Lacrymas]

Having to build into something for it to be extra effective seems like the point to me.

 

[Axel_am]

Didn't play the expansions but PotD seemed difficult to chew and very doable the whole time. I never felt like any of my party members were useless, especially my tanks.

Are people really complaining that the AI goes for your backline? That's not a valid complaint.

 

[Lacrymas]

To be fair, tanks aren't very useful. I had a Paladin tank at one point and was constantly disappointed and wished it could do more.

 

[razvedchiki]

whats a good 2handed build for potd? was thinking of a fighter with greatsword, is it worth it to pump dex for attack speed?

 

[warralek]

The low sales for PoE 2 come down to absolutely shit marketing

dont be dumb

people just didnt like PoE 1 enough, its crystal clear

I loved PoE1 , bought PoE2 played couple of hours and never came back, it just didn't felt like PoE1 sequel game to me. A lot of folks during production of PoE2, backers from PoE1 who were at that time backers for PoE2, on Obsidian forums, were saying that they don't like the way game is going, calling out some stuff, Obsidian didn't listen, they withdrew their backing.

I don't agree that PoE2 didn't sell well exclusively because people didn't like PoE1. Also have to say Versus Evil publisher marketing was bad reaching new players imo.

I'm thinking to start a new playthrough PoE1 PoTD+Expert after couple of years of non-playing, then gonna give a PoE2 another shot, who knows maybe I will like it this time .

 

[Piotrovitz]

whats a good 2handed build for potd? was thinking of a fighter with greatsword, is it worth it to pump dex for attack speed?

Tidefall or St. Rumbalt, pump str/dex/per, pick offensive perks. There's not much else to it. Barb would probably work better than fighter though.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

There's not much else to it.

PoE1 itemization in a nutshell.