Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Space Satan]

I have no idea what possibly could fix resting mechanics apart from outright forbidding resting outside inns or special places. PoI system does not help at all, supplies were cheap and anyone could rest as much as they want. This plus relying purely on per encounter spells and abilities, saving all spells on bosses.

 

[Gord]

I have no idea what possibly could fix resting mechanics apart from outright forbidding resting outside inns or special places. PoI system does not help at all, supplies were cheap and anyone could rest as much as they want. This plus relying purely on per encounter spells and abilities, saving all spells on bosses.

Would that alone fix anything though? If you say that people could rest as much as they want that means that you already assume that they would travel back to vendors for more supplies or inns for rented rooms whenever necessary. Restricting rest to certain areas only means that now you lose your "free" rests (from carrying 2-6 camping supplies depending on difficulty) and directly need to backtrack.
Maybe a combination of area restrictions + limited supplies + reduced effect outside of inns (e.g. you only regain parts of your per-rest abilities and health)?
I guess that including more time-critical stuff (quests, enemies, special loot) would help as well, but might quickly look artificial if overdone.

 

[Volrath]

"A lot of people hate 4E. I don't."

Nothing more needs to be said. Obsidian't most influential game designer is a MMORPG fanboy, their company is quite literally doomed.

 

[Fairfax]

The only punishment for spending all camp supplies is having to backtrack and suffer through 4 loading screens. When that's what drives the player's resource management, might as well reconsider the whole mechanic from scratch. I wouldn't have it in the first place, but a lot of people (even here) seem to believe it is absolutely necessary.

Also, JES likes 4E. Why is that not surprising?

 

[Infinitron]

Josh's approval of 4E is nothing new. He very consciously designed PoE as a kind of 3E/4E hybrid, with class design resembling the former but the mechanical consistency of the latter.

I have no idea what possibly could fix resting mechanics apart from outright forbidding resting outside inns or special places. PoI system does not help at all, supplies were cheap and anyone could rest as much as they want. This plus relying purely on per encounter spells and abilities, saving all spells on bosses.

Would that alone fix anything though? If you say that people could rest as much as they want that means that you already assume that they would travel back to vendors for more supplies or inns for rented rooms whenever necessary. Restricting rest to certain areas only means that now you lose your "free" rests (from carrying 2-6 camping supplies depending on difficulty) and directly need to backtrack.
Maybe a combination of area restrictions + limited supplies + reduced effect outside of inns (e.g. you only regain parts of your per-rest abilities and health)?
I guess that including more time-critical stuff (quests, enemies, special loot) would help as well, but might quickly look artificial if overdone.

I could envision a rest-less system that simulates resource attrition over time that would satisfy anti-grognards, by making things highly gamey. Every encounter in the game would be assigned a value. When you win the encounter, your mages gain back a certain amount of spells and so on, depending on the value. You know ahead of time what the encounter is worth, so you can make a calculated decision on how much spells to use.

 

[Immortal]

"A lot people hate 4E. I don't."

Nothing more needs to be said.

I keep hitting brofist but it's only giving you one.

 

[Fairfax]

It may not be new (it is to me), but it still pisses me off because they were not upfront about that kind of design philosophy when they created the campaign.
Can you imagine if the Kickstarter pitch had been honest? I still liked the game, but I wouldn't have spent nearly as much money as I did.

Obsidian's Fantasy RPG
Obsidian Entertainment and our legendary game designers Chris Avellone, Tim Cain, and Josh Sawyer are excited to bring you a new role-playing game for the PC. Project Eternity (working title) pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past: Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment.

X

Josh Sawyer's Dream RPG: A 3E/4E Hybrid
*may include small traces of heavily altered content originally by Chris Avellone and a pointless stronghold system by Tim Cain

 

[Sensuki]

Looks like I was right in regards to them considering removing rest (and thus per-rest stuff).

 

[Duraframe300]

It may not be new (it is to me), but it still pisses me off because they were not upfront about that kind of design philosophy when they created the campaign.

To be fair that was known long before the Kickstarter campaign if you did any research.

On the campaign specifically. They didn't exactly go into their design philosophy at all (Apart from very superficial buzzwords). It was a marketing pitch.

 

[eremita]

I stopped playing PoE because of the continuous changes. Seriously, redesign of skills and encounters really makes me happy and I simply won't touch the game unless they're done with it. Been playing Blackguards instead...

 

[AwesomeButton]

If spells are being "spent" apparently some kind of resource will always be needed to "buy" them back. Whether it's buying camping supplies and spending them to regain spells, or a potion that will let you "recall" used spells, graded by some points-based system, that's not that big a difference.

In my opinion, and from all I've seen of people's playing habits, the complaints about the resting mechanic being exploitable are made mainly by people who are already exploiting it, because they want to and because they can.

I don't exploit it in my games, and I didn't exploit it in the IE games either, so it's no problem for me that it's exploitable. I think it comes down to playing habits, and I don't see what's really there to complain about - if it seems exploitable to you, just don't take advantage of your ability to exploit it, and you're ok. If you are exploiting it, you have only yourself to blame.

I also don't think any variation of the resting mechanic can be made impossible to exploit. A game designer is always at a disadvantage against a player who is looking for ways to exploit the game. A no small part of the players as a whole find satisfaction in their games exactly in looking for exploits.

I stopped playing PoE because of the continuous changes. Seriously, redesign of skills and encounters really makes me happy and I simply won't touch the game unless they're done with it. Been playing Blackguards instead...

Agreed, and same here.

PoE has one of the strangest histories I've seen. A game being released in a half-baked beta state, getting great scores regardless, because it's innovative in its turning to the (perceived as such by most people) "roots" of the genre, instead of trying to be a B-quality CGI movie which is currently the norm (it also has pretty backgrounds and a combat system that manages to pose as very hardcore). This already 9/10 RPG then has to be patched over the course of the year, expecting to reach what, 13/10 by February 2016.

 

[ArchAngel]

Josh's approval of 4E is nothing new. He very consciously designed PoE as a kind of 3E/4E hybrid, with class design resembling the former but the mechanical consistency of the latter.

I have no idea what possibly could fix resting mechanics apart from outright forbidding resting outside inns or special places. PoI system does not help at all, supplies were cheap and anyone could rest as much as they want. This plus relying purely on per encounter spells and abilities, saving all spells on bosses.

Would that alone fix anything though? If you say that people could rest as much as they want that means that you already assume that they would travel back to vendors for more supplies or inns for rented rooms whenever necessary. Restricting rest to certain areas only means that now you lose your "free" rests (from carrying 2-6 camping supplies depending on difficulty) and directly need to backtrack.
Maybe a combination of area restrictions + limited supplies + reduced effect outside of inns (e.g. you only regain parts of your per-rest abilities and health)?
I guess that including more time-critical stuff (quests, enemies, special loot) would help as well, but might quickly look artificial if overdone.

I could envision a rest-less system that simulates resource attrition over time that would satisfy anti-grognards, by making things highly gamey. Every encounter in the game would be assigned a value. When you win the encounter, your mages gain back a certain amount of spells and so on, depending on the value. You know ahead of time what the encounter is worth, so you can make a calculated decision on how much spells to use.

All you get is a irritating version of per encounter system. Irritating because now players have to do the math in their head and then use up all their "per encounter" spells and then complain again about how they don't need to use per rest spells or how there are not enough spells and they must rest too often.

The real problem is this stupid hybrid. They need to go more one way or another. Either go almost full per encounter with only a couple of strongest spells being per rest or go almost full per rest and have only some buffs be per encounter with ability to change which buff is that. Also make it so you can only cast that one buff but remove limitations of spells only being cast during combat.

 

[Fairfax]

It may not be new (it is to me), but it still pisses me off because they were not upfront about that kind of design philosophy when they created the campaign.

To be fair that was known long before the Kickstarter campaign if you did any research.

On the campaign specifically. They didn't exactly go into their design philosophy at all (Apart from very superficial buzzwords). It was a marketing pitch.

What was? The 4E? That's not my main complaint here, but the fact MCA, Tim Cain and even George Ziets were heavily advertised but had little do with the game in the end. The 3E/4E thing is just another thing where the KS pitch was very misleading.

 

[Maculo]

With the current rest system, it's just a minor annoyance, as money and inns are not hard to find. By itself, it is not enough to create any tension in my opinion.

I think this system would have worked better if some quests had time limits. Fallout 1 comes to mind, where you only had a certain amount of days to wrap things up.

 

[Sannom]

Josh Sawyer's Dream RPG: A 3E/4E Hybrid

You are a goon?

PoE has one of the strangest histories I've seen. A game being released in a half-baked beta state, getting great scores regardless, because it's innovative in its turning to the (perceived as such by most people) "roots" of the genre, instead of trying to be a B-quality CGI movie which is currently the norm (it also has pretty backgrounds and a combat system that manages to pose as very hardcore).

Not that strange of a history, really. Wasteland 2 did the same thing apparently, it's just that getting out of beta was done in one fell swoop one year after release whereas PoE is doing it gradually through the patches and the extension.

 

[Infinitron]

We're living in the year of Raven's Cry and Batman: Arkham Knight, the major Kickstarter RPGs look like Nintendo products in comparison.

 

[Sannom]

I don't know about Raven's Cry, but Arkham Knight felt like the continuation (and apex) of the old "publishers don't care about the PC and consoles keep dumbing down this fair machine" thing.

 

[Duraframe300]

It may not be new (it is to me), but it still pisses me off because they were not upfront about that kind of design philosophy when they created the campaign.

To be fair that was known long before the Kickstarter campaign if you did any research.

On the campaign specifically. They didn't exactly go into their design philosophy at all (Apart from very superficial buzzwords). It was a marketing pitch.

What was? The 4E? That's not my main complaint here, but the fact MCA, Tim Cain and even George Ziets were heavily advertised but had little do with the game in the end.

Ah. Yeah thats true. I disagree on Tim though.

Tim Cain didn't have "little to do" with the game in the end. He IS a programmer first and foremost and thats what he did including the actual implementation of most of the system related stuff. He and Sawyer both worked very closly together and it was his full time job. He also had indirect influence on level design through his husband.

Not that there are some things Tim said they didn't do (for whatever reason), but thats absolutly no comparison to either MCA or Ziets. He was there from beginning to end.

 

[Fairfax]

It may not be new (it is to me), but it still pisses me off because they were not upfront about that kind of design philosophy when they created the campaign.

To be fair that was known long before the Kickstarter campaign if you did any research.

On the campaign specifically. They didn't exactly go into their design philosophy at all (Apart from very superficial buzzwords). It was a marketing pitch.

What was? The 4E? That's not my main complaint here, but the fact MCA, Tim Cain and even George Ziets were heavily advertised but had little do with the game in the end.

Ah. Yeah thats true. I disagree on Tim though.

Tim Cain didn't have "little to do" with the game in the end. He IS a programmer first and foremost and thats what he did including the actual implementation of most of the system related stuff. He and Sawyer both worked very closly together and it was his full time job. He also had indirect influence on level design through his husband.

Not that there are some things Tim said they didn't do (for whatever reason), but thats absolutly no comparison to either MCA or Ziets. He was there from beginning to end.

Sure, but he is not just a programmer, though. He was project lead in Arcanum and ToEE. I'm not saying that's what he should've been, but his role was fairly minor, even though he's mentioned as a "legendary game designer" along with MCA and Sawyer in that pitch.
I agree that's no comparison to MCA and Ziets, but still minor.

 

[Duraframe300]

Sure, but he is not just a programmer, though. He was project lead in Arcanum and ToEE. I'm not saying that's what he should've been, but his role was fairly minor, even though he's mentioned as a "legendary game designer" along with MCA and Sawyer in that pitch.
I agree that's no comparison to MCA and Ziets, but still minor.

He didn't have a lead title, but someone as experienced as him always has bigger authority on projects. Similiar to Brian Menze when it comes to art. And IIRC he was the only one Sawyer mentioned discussing System Design related matters with. Not that he was anywhere near as influential as Sawyer on the project, but as far as the whole team goes he probably had quite a bit of influence.

Both on Arcanum and TOEE his main occupation was programming as well, even if he did (at least on Arcanum) have a lot more design related things to do.

Funny thing, the whole *Leading* part is what Tim disliked most about his career so far. Before deciding to stay on at Obsidian he wanted to join a start-up with a small team. Considering, I'm not sure Tim Cain (at least when Pillars started) would have wanted to take a big title on the project.

 

[Roguey]

Obsidian't most influential game designer is a MMORPG fanboy, their company is quite literally doomed.

He doesn't like how MMOs try to addict players.

I think this system would have worked better if some quests had time limits. Fallout 1 comes to mind, where you only had a certain amount of days to wrap things up.

There's a zero chance any Obsidian game will ever have a time limit. Most RPG players hate them.

 

[Maculo]

There's a zero chance any Obsidian game will ever have a time limit. Most RPG players hate them.

You definitely correct, but I am not sure how else one can make PoE's rest system more meaningful. Even if one restricts resting to inns, all that seems to accomplish is to make players walk back to an inn.

 

[Ninjerk]

I think it comes down to the genre being mostly comprised today of derivative mechanics heaped upon abstractions that the industry has no connection to anymore. It makes it all the more curious that someone as thoughtful and apparently knowledgeable about the roots of cRPGs continues to abuse convention and fail to iterate on said mechanics in a meaningful way.

 

[Fairfax]

There's a zero chance any Obsidian game will ever have a time limit. Most RPG players hate them.

You definitely correct, but I am not sure how else one can make PoE's rest system more meaningful. Even if one restricts resting to inns, all that seems to accomplish is to make players walk back to an inn.

They have to reevaluate the entire mechanic and its purpose, if you ask me. Usually the idea is to make the player manage the resources wisely and punish the player for using too many. There are two punishments:
a) Backtrack, suffer 4 loading screens and spend a very small amount of money (at least for the basic rest).
b) Fight more enemies while suffering from afflictions, low health, tapped out spells, etc.

Without respawning enemies, b) only happens if the player refuses to endure 4 loading screens. In the end, it's nothing but an annoyance, it doesn't make the game any more difficult, even in higher difficulties where your camping supplies cap is lower.

 

[ArchAngel]

I for one don't want to suffer loading screens. Any needless backtracking is waste of time. Even in Bg1EE (with nonexistant loading screens) I rarely went back and would just press on as long as I could.