Vapourware RPGs that can legitimately be called masterpieces

[smaug]

If you’re calling JA2 an RPG, then I vote:

Age of Wonders 2 SM, and Heroes of Might and Magic 3.

 

[Martyr]

I've also never understood why ToEE is seen as a pure combat simulation with nothing else going on, there are more than enough good sidequests and also skill checks everywhere. plus the different beginnings based on your party's alignment. plenty of replay value because of that.

The true replayability of ToEE stems from its combat unit building, party creation and party composition concerns.

yup. but the sidequests in general plus the alignment-based sidequests/differences in the mainquest and the beginnings add to that replay value.

another game that is said to be a combat simulator is Knights of the Chalice. I can actually agree on this one, the quests are exactly the same on each playthrough. ToEE has some serious variety both in combat and in the various plotlines going for it.

ToEE is a masterpiece.

quoted for truth.

 

[AwesomeButton]

RPGs that can legitimately be called masterpieces

Add Underrail.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Warband as in Mount&Blade: Warband?

 

[Vlajdermen]

That's what defines a classic, not a masterpiece.

So, a classic is a game that leaves a strong positive impression, while a masterpiece is a game that's as close to perfect as possible? Aka, a game that future developers can use as an example of "what to be"?

If it wasn't for the point-of-no-return moment near the end, Underrail would fit that description. It doesn't hit as hard as Arcanum but I'd struggle to find any other problems with it

 

[Heroic Liberator]

That's what defines a classic, not a masterpiece.

So, a classic is a game that leaves a strong positive impression, while a masterpiece is a game that's as close to perfect as possible? Aka, a game that developers can use as an example of "what to be"?

I'd say that a masterpiece is a game that is as close to perfection as possible given its self-imposed limits (in terms of narrative, mechanics and what not). The more ambitious a game is, the less likely it is to be a masterpiece given that it has to cut corners here and there during development.

 

[Diggfinger]

Fluent

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Fluent

Why hast thou summoned him?

 

[Lilura]

yup. but the sidequests in general plus the alignment-based sidequests/differences in the mainquest and the beginnings add to that replay value.

None that are worth mentioning in a thread about masterpiece RPGs. No one replays ToEE for its opening vignettes or for its token reactivity related to party alignment. No one.

ToEE has some serious variety ... in the various plotlines going for it.

None that are worth mentioning in a thread about masterpiece RPGs. No one plays ToEE for its plot. No one.

ToEE is a masterpiece.

No, it isn't. It's a bug-ridden dungeon crawler with blatantly obvious design flaws; moreoever, it's shoddily-coded and broken in many ways. Great game, one of my faves, and a cult classic, but not even in the same ballpark as a masterpiece such as Jagged Alliance 2.

 

[Martyr]

yup. but the sidequests in general plus the alignment-based sidequests/differences in the mainquest and the beginnings add to that replay value.

None that are worth mentioning in a thread about masterpiece RPGs. No one replays ToEE for its opening vignettes or for its token reactivity related to party alignment. No one.

ToEE has some serious variety ... in the various plotlines going for it.

None that are worth mentioning in a thread about masterpiece RPGs. No one plays ToEE for its plot. No one.

to both "no one"s I can only say: I did and I will do so again.
I've been playing ToEE since its release at least twice each year. I've completed it on the 19th of january 2019 and I've completed it on the 8th of may 2019. I was actually thinking about playing it again, before this year is over.
your "The true replayability of ToEE stems from its combat unit building, party creation and party composition concerns." is true, I'm not even claiming something else. but if you've exhausted everything there is that has to do with combat and party building, and there's still more content, which you probably haven't seen yet, you'll go for it.
so yes, I have replayed ToEE for the opening vignettes. for each one of them.
and yes, I have tried and afaik succeeded in completing every quest, which is alignment-/skill-based in every possible way.

ToEE is one of my most played games of all time and yet I've still not become tired of it. not even of Hommlet. ToEE is, for me, a roleplaying masterpiece.

 

[Oreshnik Missile]

so yes, I have replayed ToEE for the opening vignettes. for each one of them.

 

[Curratum]

I only clicked this off the main forum page to post "Who the hell still asks this sort of question or thinks about those things?" and of course it's Lilura. But nonetheless, I'll indulge you.

In no specific order:

- Quest for Glory 1
- Grimrock 1
- Baldur's Gate 2
- Witcher 3
- Dark Souls 2

 

[Heroic Liberator]

- Witcher 3

If only you knew how much content was cut, lad...

 

[Nerevar]

NWN 1
Wiz 8

A few more that were mentioned already. NWN1 and Wiz 8 always get remain installed on my PC.

Edit: Oh almost forgot Mandate of heaven amazing game.

 

[Lilura]

ToEE is, for me, a roleplaying masterpiece.

Giving me your credentials is not going to change reality. Not only have I also played ToEE on and off since its release, but I've also written a retrospective on it which is high-ranked in Google for a reason: I know what I'm talking about.

Calling ToEE a "role-playing masterpiece" is risible to the point of no refutation required. I would agree that Troika had the template and engine to make such an RPG, but they utterly failed to do so for several reasons which we don't need to go into.

 

[Pink Eye]

That list is humorous. 10 or so odd years ago, people would mock that list, and debate that video games can't be "masterpieces". However, as time goes by, certain media and products are held to a higher standard, for some reason. Case and point Baldur's Gate 1. Loved that game to death, played it to death. Back in the day, I used to celebrate that game as being the best game of all time. However, people would make fun of me for thinking so. Yet, as time went by, you'd see both Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 being hailed as the best of the genre.

To the OP I dare you to test your preconceptions of what a masterpiece is. Can everyone agree its good? Does it transcend its medium? What did people think of it at the time?

Anyways, to answer the question, Pathfinder: Kingmaker.

 

[Curratum]

- Witcher 3

If only you knew how much content was cut, lad...

Maybe it's best I never know. It was the most enjoyable experience I've had with digital media in over a decade, that's all I know and I'd like to keep that memory unsullied.

Then again, I feel I should clarify that to me immersion and "being there" are huge factors in any game. I'd just walk up to a nice quaint street with a view of the harbor in Oxenfurt and just sit and listen to the Whispers of Oxenfurt tune and just soak in the feeling. I think by the time I was done with the game, I had taken something like 1300 screenshots of it.

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Undeniable masterpieces:
Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord
Ultima IV: Quest of the Avatar
Hero's Quest: So You Want to Be a Hero
Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss
Darklands
Fallout: A Post Nuclear Role Playing Game
Jagged Alliance 2
Planescape: Torment

Classic titles that are almost there:
Alter Ego
Might and Magic Book One: The Secret of the Inner Sanctum
Ultima V: Warriors of Destiny
Betrayal at Krondor
Deus Ex
Gothic
Wizardry 8
Knights of the Chalice
Expeditions: Conquistador

 

[Taxnomore]

Among those that haven't been quoted yet :

Ultima 4.
Ultima 7.
FF6/7/9 (yes, I'm serious.)
Mother 3.
Persona 5.

Many JRPGs, but all the obvious other games have been quoted. And yes, Disco Elysium is a masterpiece.

 

[biggestboss]

I only clicked this off the main forum page to post "Who the hell still asks this sort of question or thinks about those things?" and of course it's Lilura. But nonetheless, I'll indulge you.

In no specific order:

- Quest for Glory 1
- Grimrock 1
- Baldur's Gate 2
- Witcher 3
- Dark Souls 2

I could understand Demon's/Dark Souls 1 being borderline masterpieces, but Worst Souls 2: Scholar of the Worst Sin should never grace a list like this.

 

[pomenitul]

There is no such thing sub specie aeternitatis.

 

[AdamReith]

AoW1 gotta be on that list.

- Starts with hobbits.
- Ends with dragons.

What were the criteria again?

 

[Curratum]

I only clicked this off the main forum page to post "Who the hell still asks this sort of question or thinks about those things?" and of course it's Lilura. But nonetheless, I'll indulge you.

In no specific order:

- Quest for Glory 1
- Grimrock 1
- Baldur's Gate 2
- Witcher 3
- Dark Souls 2

I could understand Demon's/Dark Souls 1 being borderline masterpieces, but Worst Souls 2: Scholar of the Worst Sin should never grace a list like this.

The reason for choosing 2 out of the whole bunch is that it somehow clicked best for me. I like 2's environments and "story" best. There is something about the locations and lore that resonates with me for some reason, some great wave of sadness and lethargy that washes over everything. It could be the environmental design, I dunno.

 

[Max Damage]

Knights of the Chalice

 

[Sigourn]

Fallout: New Vegas - Dead Money.

A glorified mod built on the Oblivion With Guns popamole engine. Thus, it can never be considered a masterpiece.

Inserting Bad Dragon dildos up your ass doesn't make you a dragon lady.