Vapourware RPGs that can legitimately be called masterpieces

[Roguey]

What a pity. You missed out on the best companion, Qara.

Statwise, she's a good sorceress, but her personality is obnoxiously arrogant and mean. My favorite was Shandra (I don't care about her mediocre stats) so of course she'd be the one killed by the plot.

 

[Grimwulf]

Take what Prime Junta argued in the RPG GOTY thread, he claimed that DE is an RPG because it won an RPG award...so, now Dwarf Fortress is art because it's in an art museum?

It's either that or everyone-decides-for-themselves. The latter makes the very concept of facts and definitions impossible. The next logical step would be joining the flat-Earthers.

People pay money to see the yellow room in some faraway art museum. I won't. But neither will I escape from reality: I acknowledge that someone came to an art museum and paid money to look at a yellow room which they genuinely consider to be art. It's a fact.

 

[Viata]

This post is art!

Never forget:

 

[Latro]

It's either that or everyone-decides-for-themselves.

Nah. Why do we like Lilura for instance? Not simply because she's the authoritative source, but because she's established herself as such - she has the knowledge (write-ups), and makes the arguments. The museum on the other hand puts forth no other qualifications other than itself. An appeal to Lilura is an appeal to her arguments, an appeal to the museum is simply an appeal to authority.

The latter makes the very concept of facts and definitions impossible.

Nonsense, you're taking out the communicative properties of definitions. Facts and definitions exist outside of authorities. Two people meet and one thinks the earth is round and the other is flat. The objective truth exists, and the one with the better argument can approach it, even if the flat-earther disagrees.

 

[Grimwulf]

The museum on the other hand puts forth no other qualifications other than itself.

You know this isn't true.

Spoiler

How do MoMA curators select and propose works for the Architecture and Design Collection and frame them within the wider mission of The Museum of Modern Art? There are no hard and fast rules, but there are several criteria that come into play in the discussion.

Form and Meaning. The formal, visual qualities of an object are tied to beauty, an important prerequisite in an art museum, but also an elusive and subjective one. Objects are expected to communicate values that go well beyond their formal and functional presence, starting with the designer’s idea and intention. The best design embodies the designer’s original concept in the finished object in a transparent and powerful way.

Function and Meaning. The appreciation of function has changed dramatically in the last few decades. Some objects are designed to elicit emotions or inspiration, and these intangible purposes are also considered part of their functional makeup.

Innovation. Good designers transform the most momentous scientific and technological revolutions into objects that anybody can use. With this in mind, curators often look for objects that target new issues or address old ones in a new way.

Cultural Impact. MoMA has always privileged objects that, whether mass-marketed or developed experimentally in a designer’s workshop, have the power to influence material culture and touch the greatest number of people. Their impact can either be direct–effective the minute they are purchased and used–or unfold over time through the inspiration they give to other designers.

Process. Curators don’t stop at the object–they also take into account its entire life cycle as a product. This includes the way it is designed and built and the economy of means in its production, distribution, and use; the way it addresses complexity by celebrating simplicity; its impact on society and the environment; and the way it ages and dies.

Necessity. Here is the ultimate litmus test: if this object had never been designed and produced, would the world miss it, even just a bit? As disarming as this question might seem, it really works. Try it at home.

It's business, a whole industry even. One that I won't understand since I devoted my life to another field entirely. However, I fully realize this business has its own experts, and a massive-ass museum in NY can probably afford good experts. It's not an appeal to MoMA authority, all I'm saying is it's not a random backwards museum opened in a tribal village and run by a screaming senile madman. Those people know what they're doing, otherwise they would get no recognition and go bankrupt years ago. Therefore, not every museum is worth to be recognized, but those that do display actual art, whether you like that or not.

Same with Prime Junta and RPG awards. I don't remember who exactly awarded DE (can't be arsed to re-read the damn thing), but if it was Steam - congratulations, it will be sold as an RPG in Steam. People will pay money and expect an RPG. Then they will ask for a refund. Probably like those going for the yellow room.

Still doesn't change the definition aspect of the matter.

An appeal to Lilura is an appeal to her arguments, an appeal to the museum is simply an appeal to authority.

Every museum has its own criteria, or at least people with clear instructions on how to do their goddamn job. Also, why are we comparing Lilura and museums again? Feels a bit weird.

Facts and definitions exist outside of authorities.

My point exactly. We're debating about things that already happened.

For you, art is something that you feel like it should be recognized as art by majority of people you expect to be able to recognize art.
For me, art is something that's being traded as art. It doesn't make me respect the art piece, or treat it with some sort of "ohhhh, art!" attitude. It's just a definition.

"Someone makes money using this as an art medium. Okay."

 

[Latro]

Every museum has its own criteria, or at least people with clear instructions on how to do their goddamn job. Also, why are we comparing Lilura and museums again? Feels a bit weird.

RE: Lilura - Because I find it amusing; but the disagreement seems to be that I simply have no faith in their standards or their people. I can quite clearly see that they are a professional organization and are probably full of qualified and lovely people, but their mere endorsement isn't qualitative enough, they (or any other authority) must convince me.

It's business, a whole industry even.

Not particularly renowned for their honesty or high standards. In any case, I'll readily admit I have issues with authority figures

 

[pomenitul]

Statwise, she's a good sorceress, but her personality is obnoxiously arrogant and mean.

 

[Dramart]

Lilura, if combat is the most important thing for you, why do have Fallout and Warband among your masterpieces? If you find them fun, great, that's the main purpose of video games. But their combat gameplay are not good.

 

[Farewell into the night]

Lilura, if combat is the most important thing for you, why do have Fallout and Warband among your masterpieces? If you find them fun, great, that's the main purpose of video games. But their combat gameplay are not good.

Can I cut in and ask you which games do you consider to have good combat gameplay?

 

[Lilura]

Statwise, she's a good sorceress, but her personality is obnoxiously arrogant and mean.

That's why I like her. +Fireballs.

Lilura, if combat is the most important thing for you, why do have Fallout and Warband among your masterpieces?

Fallout has good combat. Anyone who disagees ends up in my iggy bin. Same with Warband.

Can I cut in and ask you which games do you consider to have good combat gameplay?

Best combat RPGs are Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm and ToEE.

 

[Egosphere]

Fallout has good combat. Anyone who disagees ends up in my iggy bin. Same with Warband.

And Arcanum?

 

[Dramart]

Lilura, if combat is the most important thing for you, why do have Fallout and Warband among your masterpieces? If you find them fun, great, that's the main purpose of video games. But their combat gameplay are not good.

Can I cut in and ask you which games do you consider to have good combat gameplay?

Games with mechanics that require skills or certian amount of strategy or intelligence to beat them. For example, Counter-Strike, you have to be really good at aiming with the mouse. Games like Darksouls, Megaman X, Super Ghouls and Ghosts, Contra, etc, you need to be good at learning the movement of the enemy and know when it moment to attack. Age of Empires 2, it's very important to know the advantages and disadvantages of the different kinds of civilizations, learn which units have advantage vs other. Games like Fire Emblem or Shining Force, turn combat, like in AOE example you have to know about advantages or disadvantages, I don't know which word to use "estimate?" when you move towards your enemy, if after you attack them (trying to make the most damage possible), you try to estimate if your units are going to be in a bad position, that requires some intelligence. Fallout and Warband I think have not that, it's just like kick each other balls until one falls down. In the other games you also fight until the enemy dies, but in Fallout and Warband there is not much complexity, mechanically speaking.

 

[Dramart]

Fallout has good combat. Anyone who disagees ends up in my iggy bin. Same with Warband.

Don't ignore me. I read your blog.

 

[Butter]

I'm not sure how Contra combat is mechanically more complex than Warband. Don't you just shoot people with a gun until they die?

 

[Farewell into the night]

Best combat RPGs are Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm and ToEE.

I was actually asking user Dramrat. I am familiar with your wisdom. Thank you anyway, for the response.

 

[Lord_Potato]

What a pity. You missed out on the best companion, Qara.

Statwise, she's a good sorceress, but her personality is obnoxiously arrogant and mean.

Sounds like OP, only without the good sorceress part!

 

[Cryomancer]

Sounds like OP, only without the good sorceress part!

Sorcerers are useless on NWN2. Theyr spells are terrible nerfed if compared to pnp or nwn1. This while warrios can easily get +5D6 elemental weapon and attack 4 times per round.

And Arcanum?

Arcanum is a masterpiece in writing. The first game to even consider a industrial revolution in a traditional fantasy setting that i know. They also was the first one to realize that undeads would be the best workers, not only the best soldiers.

 

[Valky]

Why should anyone care about your opinion when a literal game is displayed in a literal art museum in NY? Do you know what a fact is? Here, let me help you out once again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact

Learning life with uncle Grimwulf.

Whether one likes art or not is another question entirely. From a certain point of view, art doesn't need to be qualified or even shown to anybody in order to be a piece of art. From that same point of view, everything could be qualified as art. Life coach could see his own shit as art.

I might not even glance towards the yellow room you mentioned, but I have enough brains to acknowledge that it's art for someone. If people refused to accept new art mediums, we would be stuck with cave engravings to this day. Some of those new mediums might appear mighty weird to me, then again - so was music to someone in the past. Some prehistoric life coach, sperging about music "not being art, only parts of the music, like words or musical notes are".

Art is a meaningless fucking buzzword devoid of all connotation. Here's another museum. https://www.vaginamuseum.co.uk/

Artfags are truly the most cancerous infection in the video game entertainment medium. Storyfags may be insufferable but at least they care about forwarding the entertainment value of entertainment for its own benefit.

 

[Grimwulf]

Artfags

Nah, it's those who can't for the fuck of them learn to read - you are the true cancer of Codex.

I never said I cared about art. All I care about is facts and definitions. First, someone said games aren't art, which is no longer the case. Then others began offering their unique vision about what is rpg, and what is art.

To me, it's simple. To the whole damn world, it's simple - the art industry doesn't care about your opinion on established facts.

And you can keep debating. Nobody cares.

 

[Valky]

Artfags

Nah, it's those who can't for the fuck of them learn to read - you are the true cancer of Codex.

I never said I cared about art. All I care about is facts and definitions. First, someone said games aren't art, which is no longer the case. Then others began offering their unique vision about what is rpg, and what is art.

To me, it's simple. To the whole damn world, it's simple - the art industry doesn't care about your opinion on established facts.

And you can keep debating. Nobody cares.

Someone calling something art does not make it so. Everyone is calling everything art thanks to modern liberalism. When everything is art, nothing is art because it is a meaningless descriptor.
What you are doing is positing that because someone assigned a description to something, it must automatically be true.
This post is art, you can't disagree with me.

 

[Grimwulf]

This post is art, you can't disagree with me.

As soon as you start making money selling this post as an art medium, I'll agree with you. In fact, you wouldn't need me to agree with you - it will be an objective fact.

If you fail to understand my point after reading previous posts, I'm not gonna waste my time on you.
If you didn't read my posts, which I'm hoping is the case here (otherwise you're plain stupid) then stop fucking arguing. Because I will not repeat myself.

 

[Valky]

You can find an idiot to sell anything to. Paying for something does not legitimize it as anything, all that means is that you could find a sucker to sell something to.

Never forget:

 

[Grimwulf]

You can find an idiot to sell anything to. Paying for something does not legitimize it as anything, all that means is that you could find a sucker to sell something to.

True. But when the whole world is composed of suckers willing to pay for tasteless shit, that shit becomes art. And you become a marginal, denying the world and society that surrounds you. Denying the facts.

What I personally don't understand is why everyone here is so edgy about the topic. Okay, people sell and buy tickets to the yellow room, and the world accepted that kind of shit as an artwork - so what? What's so tragic about having good art and bad art? Why are you so fixed on having good art only, you're ready to deny the fucking reality itself?

 

[barghwata]

Someone calling something art does not make it so. Everyone is calling everything art thanks to modern liberalism. When everything is art, nothing is art because it is a meaningless descriptor.
What you are doing is positing that because someone assigned a description to something, it must automatically be true.
This post is art, you can't disagree with me.

How much for your post?

 

[Valky]

You can find an idiot to sell anything to. Paying for something does not legitimize it as anything, all that means is that you could find a sucker to sell something to.

True. But when the whole world is composed of suckers willing to pay for tasteless shit, that shit becomes art. And you become a marginal, denying the world and society that surrounds you. Denying the facts.

What I personally don't understand is why everyone here is so edgy about the topic. Okay, people sell and buy tickets to the yellow room, and the world accepted that kind of shit as an artwork - so what? What's so tragic about having good art and bad art? Why are you so fixed on having good art only, you're ready to deny the fucking reality itself?

At this point, with everything being art, we have circled back to the differentiation of good and bad, and can do away with the label of art since it has brought nothing of tangible or critical value to describing something.