Decline Sword Coast Legends - RIP n-Space!

[ArchAngel]

"Play how you want to play" = single player or co-op.

Well PoE didn't offer that.. or WL2

 

[sstacks]

So my take after perusing comments for a few days now and seeing reviews etc is that a lot of the beating n-Space is taking is over the halfish D&D implementation. Not saying that is not a valid vector to review on, as this is marketed as a D&D 5E game.

If it was being reviewed solely as an action RPGish game that lets you customize your character quite a bit, play solo or co-op, and with a lot of tools for custom modules and spontaneous dungeon crawls without D&D as part of the review I do think it would be doing better.

Again, I am not saying it's unfair for D&D to be part of the equation, they have marketed the heck out of the D&D aspect.

Me personally, I'm having fun playing it. Not saying it's the best RPG in the world, not saying you should run out and buy it, just saying I'm having fun with it killing stuff and playing with DM tools.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

While the Codex reception remains rather negative (apart from sstacks), the SCL forum seems to be clearing up as some of the vocal haters move on leaving only true supporters of the game:

[Just For Fun] If You Were In Charge, What Would You Do Next?
This is just for fun, no need to get all personal for argumentative, no need to express your thoughts on how bad someone's idea is, just give us your thoughts on where you would move SCL next.

 

[DavidBVal]

Meh. I'm more willing to believe that NWN had already sold 3 million copies by 2007 and the earlier figure was inaccurate for some reason.

You don't even need to believe any mistake was made to come up with a reasonable conclusion. Let's say by 2007 NWN1 had sold 2.1 million (i.e., over 2 million) and when they count again by 2009, it is 2.25 million, plus 0.25 or 0.3 million each expansion. Remember the 2007 figures is "copies sold" but the 2009 figure includes expansion sales. NWN1 did not, by the numbers we know, sell 3 million copies.

EDIT: in any case, it's a silly debate. We were talking about this wonder of our time, SCL, and how to measure its success as a D&D release. NWN2 1 million sales is an accurate way to measure how well it does on PC.

My prediction is, it will sell 150K PC copies in the first year

 

[ArchAngel]

So my take after perusing comments for a few days now and seeing reviews etc is that a lot of the beating n-Space is taking is over the halfish D&D implementation. Not saying that is not a valid vector to review on, as this is marketed as a D&D 5E game.

If it was being reviewed solely as an action RPGish game that lets you customize your character quite a bit, play solo or co-op, and with a lot of tools for custom modules and spontaneous dungeon crawls without D&D as part of the review I do think it would be doing better.

Again, I am not saying it's unfair for D&D to be part of the equation, they have marketed the heck out of the D&D aspect.

Me personally, I'm having fun playing it. Not saying it's the best RPG in the world, not saying you should run out and buy it, just saying I'm having fun with it killing stuff and playing with DM tools.

It is not just D&D. They also marketed it as a modern day BG, modern day NWN and using DAO name.
It is neither of those and it is not half quality of any of those from what I read. Many reviews even say that without mentioning D&D.

You are just trying to spin this as being fault of D&D fanboys like some people I seen on both official and steam forums. Even if this had no D&D brand it would still receive lots of flak for this release. The realistic quality of any part of the game is shady. Maybe not 57% shady but probably closer to 70% shady. Misusing D&D brand was just an overkill.

 

[Veelq]

So my take after perusing comments for a few days now and seeing reviews etc is that a lot of the beating n-Space is taking is over the halfish D&D implementation. Not saying that is not a valid vector to review on, as this is marketed as a D&D 5E game.

If it was being reviewed solely as an action RPGish game that lets you customize your character quite a bit, play solo or co-op, and with a lot of tools for custom modules and spontaneous dungeon crawls without D&D as part of the review I do think it would be doing better.

Again, I am not saying it's unfair for D&D to be part of the equation, they have marketed the heck out of the D&D aspect.

Me personally, I'm having fun playing it. Not saying it's the best RPG in the world, not saying you should run out and buy it, just saying I'm having fun with it killing stuff and playing with DM tools.

I have the same feeling about this game. If it was released as a game "inspired by" D&D, had been honest about the scope etc. then the sales prolly would be lower but reviews and scores could be higher.
If you lower your expectations about it being any D&D based game and focus on having fun / fooling around with friends in co-op, then i can see why sstacks is kinda positive.
But whoever was in charge of this project had a goal "money to earn" in mind.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

The reviews and user feedback aren't just critical of the DnD implementation. They said the campaign creator would let you reproduce your "favourite modules in full". Instead it is gimped beyond belief. They were happy to namedrop NWN and hype this aspect of the game but now there are people wondering why a module author can't even place loot or add proper text to NPCs (ok you can use less than a tweet's worth and use a chain of "quests" to get limited "I accept" type responses, that's all), let alone design a dungeon room-by-room.

 

[Semper]

with a lot of tools for custom modules

you can't place loot. you can't create a boss encounter with custom gameplay. you can't write excessive dialogue, let alone branching. you can't create custom items, spells, skills, feats, whatevs. you can't import custom assets. there's only a very limited amount of placeables to choose from. there's no way to script. you can't create custom areas.

you're left with clicking the randomize area button, dropping the same placeables everywhere, choosing from a handful of ambient settings to customize your area, recolor some creatures and give them some spell like abilities spicing up level scaled combat encounters to slog through lightweight quests. not many tools needed to create such simple content.

 

[sstacks]

While the Codex reception remains rather negative (apart from sstacks),

I'm not championing the game, I'm just a "ooh, shiny" D&D nerd so I'm one of those guys that will play it for that. Plus I'm doing a Let's Play so I'm all in at least on seeing the story mode all the way through.

The Codex is about hardcore RPGs harkening back to the good old days, so I completely understand the comments around here on SCL. There is a part of me that agrees, but as long as we're discussing the game I'm just trying to offer perspective. And I do think there are good things about this game, as a GAME to play around with not an RPG.

You are just trying to spin this as being fault of D&D fanboys like some people I seen on both official and steam forums.

My intention isn't to spin anything, simply commenting that a lot of the hits the game is taking is along those lines.

And, as I acknowledged twice in my previous post, that's a totally fair vector to review / comment on since they marketed it that way heavily.

you can't place loot. you can't create a boss encounter with custom gameplay. you can't write excessive dialogue, let alone branching. you can't create custom items, spells, skills, feats, whatevs. you can't import custom assets. there's only a very limited amount of placeables to choose from. there's no way to script. you can't create custom areas.

you're left with clicking the randomize area button, dropping the same placeables everywhere, choosing from a handful of ambient settings to customize your area, recolor some creatures and give them some spell like abilities spicing up level scaled combat encounters to slog through lightweight quests. not many tools needed to create such simple content.

OK, I don't want to be an apologist for the game and I can see my previous posts are positioning me that way. I think there is fun stuff about it, others don't. Cool. I am not trying to convince anyone to play it or buy it, let's be clear. That's your own call.

Regarding this specific post, my experience both playing with the DM tools and watching others do it is it has more to offer than what is listed above, but again, I did not go into SCL expecting NWN 3.

And I think the "dungeon crawl" mode (which is different than creating a full on custom module) is not bad.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

More feedback on the editor (not major stuff like tile-by-tile or branching/non-Twitter dialogue, just quirks with the basic implementation:

Spoiler

Has anyone noticed that the two large forest areas force us to use their townspeople encounters if we use encounters? What were the devs thinking? Were the devs thinking?
Not only that, but if you clear the encounters in the location properties, the townspeople pewter figures are still placed in the map?

We got no new monster sets with the full release of the game.

We cannot delete monsters from a custom set if we don't want them to appear in an encounter.

We cannot assemble our own list of monsters for a custom set.

Monster attack properties are scripted into the monster and not the attack so we cannot remove basic attacks from monsters when customizing them.

We have a very limited selection of monsters.

The promised customization of monsters is pretty much limited to changing their names, colours, and adding attacks.

We cannot see the defensive properties of monsters, such as resistances or any defensive bonuses.

N-Space refuses to even acknowledge this problem.

any npc created from adventurer origin wont give xp and loot, any npc created from monster origin does, it is frustrating because adventurer origin allows the most customization of hostile humanoids

Don't forget that you can't get a monster that is outside of the two sets you pick for an area because there is no master monster list! I really hate that you can only use two lists!

NPCs and hand placed monsters (as opposed to those generated by encounters) that are killed respawn every time a player enters that location.

Add to this that we only have two SMALL grassland and mountain locations that are barely large enough for one encounter and the large forest encounters have hard coded peasant and guard encounters.

When I'm creating either a quick dungeon crawl or a dungeon for a module, how am I supposed to gauge the difficulty? It seems for a group of level 1 characters, some even basic encounters can be too tough, but when I'm creating it there's no real way to tell. I can't see HP, placed monsters vs. dungeon pre places monsters seem different in power level, I swear one monster i place has 14 HP, while another could have 50.

NS have thus far refused to address, or even comment on any of these issues.

 

[Mustawd]

It is not just D&D. They also marketed it as a modern day BG, modern day NWN and using DAO name.
It is neither of those and it is not half quality of any of those from what I read. Many reviews even say that without mentioning D&D.

You are just trying to spin this as being fault of D&D fanboys like some people I seen on both official and steam forums. Even if this had no D&D brand it would still receive lots of flak for this release.

It'd probably get flak and ridicule for the comparisons it makes. However, let's be honest, there's a whole other level of vitriol in some of the negative feedback that can seriously be attributed to messing up a D&D licensed game.

Besides, were it not for its affiliation with WOTC, is there any reason to take this studio seriously? Had nSpace come out and said "we're making a NWN/DAO/BG inspired game", it probably would have gotten a *shrug* and some modest preorders, but nothing like the initial reception.

 

[ArchAngel]

It'd probably get flak and ridicule for the comparisons it makes. However, let's be honest, there's a whole other level of vitriol in some of the negative feedback that can seriously be attributed to messing up a D&D licensed game.

Besides, were it not for its affiliation with WOTC, is there any reason to take this studio seriously? Had nSpace come out and said "we're making a NWN/DAO/BG inspired game", it probably would have gotten a *shrug* and some modest preorders, but nothing like the initial reception.

So what you are saying is that their current sales and reception are expected and part of their plan?

 

[Konflyto]

My worst fear is that because of this game, no one touches D&D again for a loooong time

 

[ArchAngel]

My worst fear is that because of this game, no one touches D&D again for a loooong time

Or SoD sells like chocolate cake and in combination with success of PoE and D:OS WotC finally sees the light.

I would like Larian to get the D&D licence.

 

[Neanderthal]

sstacks If you're having fun wi it don't worry about us autistic bastards opinions, life's too fucking short mate. Or take the opportunity to induce some butthurt into our raging, as that's alway a laugh.

 

[Mustawd]

So what you are saying is that their current sales and reception are expected and part of their plan?

No I'm saying D&D butthurt is a real thing, and I agree with sstacks that it's the main gripe with this game. Coming in at a close second is lack of DM tools. But had they given a solid D&D experience in the single player, perhaps the DM tool screw up would have been less of an issue.

 

[pippin]

My worst fear is that because of this game, no one touches D&D again for a loooong time

That can only be good. A large number of crpgs are D&D derivatives, however, so it's not like D&D will be "gone" forever.
Think of it: Warhammer has been hit or miss, and more miss than hit, and The Dark Eye is going into the same direction. D&D crpgs/videogames have been so-so for a number of years now, but this is the first one that's truly shovelware, without any point of redemption. Other games were just mediocre, this is just sad.

 

[Mortmal]

Or SoD sells like chocolate cake and in combination with success of PoE and D:OS WotC finally sees the light.

I would like Larian to get the D&D licence.

There was mention of larian and dragonlance setting, but they never disclosed anything more about it. Doubt sven would discuss about it here if its under negotiations. Its really the only hope at a good D&D computer game .Anything larian would relase , even without much effort will look like a godsend compare to this.

I can understand sstacks having some fun with the campaign, its not that bad if you are not expecting much, in good mood/drunk. But the online dungeon crawl its so shallow repetitive , theres so little you can do as DM i really cant see anyone enjoying it more than 2 hours.

 

[Infinitron]

That can only be good. A large number of crpgs are D&D derivatives, however, so it's not like D&D will be "gone" forever.
Think of it: Warhammer has been hit or miss, and more miss than hit, and The Dark Eye is going into the same direction. D&D crpgs/videogames have been so-so for a number of years now, but this is the first one that's truly shovelware, without any point of redemption. Other games were just mediocre, this is just sad.

Daggerdale might have been worse than this. Hard to know for sure because nobody actually played it.

 

[sstacks]

There was mention of larian and dragonlance setting, but they never disclosed anything more about it.

If someone came out with a full 5E implementation in the original Dragonlance setting I would geek so hard it would rock your geekiness into next week.

 

[pippin]

I had forgotten about that, and while I thought it was a console exclusive, it has a Steam page http://store.steampowered.com/app/99100/
reviews are mostly negative though, and it certainly looks bad. But n space hyped this as if it was the second coming of christ for crpgs...

 

[Mortmal]

If someone came out with a full 5E implementation in the original Dragonlance setting I would geek so hard it would rock your geekiness into next week.

That info came from one of the dev who was daring enough to psot of the dex, thats why i still have some hope, but hope is like a small candle in a hurricane of decline.

Daggerdale might have been worse than this. Hard to know for sure because nobody actually played it.

Worth investigating i seen up to 7/10 (edit 7/20)review for that other peice of shit and those 2011 graphics doesnt look so bad :

 

[Sinatar]

So my take after perusing comments for a few days now and seeing reviews etc is that a lot of the beating n-Space is taking is over the halfish D&D implementation. Not saying that is not a valid vector to review on, as this is marketed as a D&D 5E game.

The real issue is that the combat is too slow and unresponsive to appeal to action RPG fans and too basic and streamlined to appeal to CRPG fans. They made a game without an audience.

 

[Zeriel]

My worst fear is that because of this game, no one touches D&D again for a loooong time

How would that really be different from the reality we live in? The last D&D "RPG" that paid even lip service to the rules was nearly a decade ago.

 

[Lhynn]

Played it for 20 minutes, agad, i almost die of boredom.
The transition to dialogue feels awful, you dont want to talk to people, also skipping dialogue is hard to do, because it wont show you the options until after the sound has played, so you have to constantly cut it short by pressing space bar.