The Codex of Roguelikes

[TheDeveloperDude]

Demo of Masters of the Unknown Worlds released.
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/my-new-crpg-under-heavy-development.66765/page-4#post-7933236
This is a Wizardry-like game. But have a roguelike option: random dungeons, random monsters, random items.
You have a party of 6 members.

 

[Fenix]

I am trying to get to Crawl/DCSS but it seems that the latest changes are not well received.

If I want to experience good old Crawl journey, from the older patches, on which patch should I start? Should I then try to play the old version one by one? Or is there a definitive old edition lists? I understand there is fork but I want to experience the original vision before delving into forks etc

Try the one with item weight, where monsters could pick up weapon, uncurse scrolls were more meaningful etc, I think 0.14 or something.

 

[Irata]

https://ptrefall.itch.io/horde-survivors

Personally, I wouldn't consider this a roguelike, but it fits the genre more than nearly everything else that claims to be one nowadays. It's a turn-based Vampire Survivors type game. I think more works needs to be done on balancing the difficulty (it is too easy), but guy the only had seven days to make it for one of itch.io's contests.

 

[anvi]

Anyone ever completed Noita? I got really far but damn

 

[Saark]

What do you mean by complete? Killing Kolmi? Because that's about 5% of the game. Collecting all Secrets? You need a PHD in 3 different sciences to have a shot at doing so.

 

[Jasede]

I am trying to get to Crawl/DCSS but it seems that the latest changes are not well received.

If I want to experience good old Crawl journey, from the older patches, on which patch should I start? Should I then try to play the old version one by one? Or is there a definitive old edition lists? I understand there is fork but I want to experience the original vision before delving into forks etc

Try the one with item weight, where monsters could pick up weapon, uncurse scrolls were more meaningful etc, I think 0.14 or something.

I had the most fun when it was called Linley's Dungeon Crawl.

 

[ptrefall]

https://ptrefall.itch.io/horde-survivors

Personally, I wouldn't consider this a roguelike, but it fits the genre more than nearly everything else that claims to be one nowadays. It's a turn-based Vampire Survivors type game. I think more works needs to be done on balancing the difficulty (it is too easy), but guy the only had seven days to make it for one of itch.io's contests.

Thank you for the shout out Irata!

 

[Morblot]

I am trying to get to Crawl/DCSS but it seems that the latest changes are not well received.

If I want to experience good old Crawl journey, from the older patches, on which patch should I start? Should I then try to play the old version one by one? Or is there a definitive old edition lists? I understand there is fork but I want to experience the original vision before delving into forks etc

Try the one with item weight, where monsters could pick up weapon, uncurse scrolls were more meaningful etc, I think 0.14 or something.

I had the most fun when it was called Linley's Dungeon Crawl.

It's still available: http://www.dungeoncrawl.org/

Version 3.3.0 is the last one that still had Linley Henzell as the lead developer. It's the version I play when I get the itch to crawl. I've never even come close to any sort of success in it. :D

 

[MWaser]

I have fairly fond memories of the early versions of Crawl I played (0.7, 0.8 and 0.12) but the modern versions of DCSS make me cringe, basically everything past 0.17/0.18 (don't remember which version it was exactly)

 

[Brickfrog]

.17 is my favorite.

 

[Matador]

.17 is my favorite.

Curious, can you elaborate?

 

[Brickfrog]

.17 is my favorite.

Curious, can you elaborate?

.17 has some modern conveniences without going too far in stripping out old content. Item weigh doesn't exist but hunger does. it's also late enough in the dev cycle to have some of the more interesting and creative Gods and Unrandom artifacts.

For me, 0.17-18 hit the right balance of stripping out old and obnoxious mechanics while maintaining hunger and spell lists that I prefer over the modern updates.

I think almost all of my wins are in 0.17 or 0.18, so it's also somewhat nostalgic for me.

.19 is also pretty ok if I remember correctly. I think that's when Uskayaw was added.

 

[Brickfrog]

Honestly, as a long time player, I don't really hate modern crawl as much as most people seem to. Especially since we can easily download and play our preferred branches.

To a new player, I might even recommend starting with the current version. Youl get to focus on learning how skill growth works and strategies for fighting monsters while not having to worry about hunger. If you want a beefier challenge and a more classic rogue like experience, you can always download the older patches from the website.

I don't think anyone who's new to crawl and plays the latest version is going to think to themselves "this game would be a lot better if it had hunger and item weight mechanics!" That stuff only matters to people like us who have some nostalgia for it.

 

[MWaser]

Honestly, as a long time player, I don't really hate modern crawl as much as most people seem to. Especially since we can easily download and play our preferred branches.

To a new player, I might even recommend starting with the current version. Youl get to focus on learning how skill growth works and strategies for fighting monsters while not having to worry about hunger. If you want a beefier challenge and a more classic rogue like experience, you can always download the older patches from the website.

I don't think anyone who's new to crawl and plays the latest version is going to think to themselves "this game would be a lot better if it had hunger and item weight mechanics!" That stuff only matters to people like us who have some nostalgia for it.

it's not that I miss item weight (but hunger was definitely a preferred mechanic to the retarded Zod timer), but the key aspect of the Crawl dev cycle that makes it annoying is the formula which I like to call
"patch out mechanics, patch in damage"
Because all the new versions seem to make the game more difficult not by virtue of any mechanical complexity but by removing player choice (spells, reliable panic buttons escape mechanics like wands and god skills) and placing everything in the hands or RNG whether you will be able to succeed or not. I have a total of 4 wins because I never played Crawl that much, but I have 1 win each in 0.8 (played 0.7 but didn't get a win then), 0.12, 0.17 and 0.23. Played it some in 0.26 but I got tired and bored of the game before I managed to win (always tried Deep Elf Wizard because magic was one of the few unique things I actually enjoyed about DCSS). But I think the patch where they removed hunger and added in the dumb timer was really the breaking point of my tolerance with the devs. I was already annoyed enough when they removed Haste from the game. And then Wands of Haste later.

 

[Matador]

Haste also removed? Jesus.

They are destroying the game, whether they know or not.

The endgame is having only the tab key and the god activation skill. And One god, Okawaru, dropping ammo and buffing combat.

Everything else is accessory, not optimal, tedious from these psychos perspective.

 

[Irata]

Mainframe Defenders 80% off.

I've not played it, but it has 90% rating. There is a demo too. The pictures make me think of Steam Marines or Bionic Dues.

 

[PapaPetro]

Haste also removed? Jesus.

They are destroying the game, whether they know or not.

The endgame is having only the tab key and the god activation skill. And One god, Okawaru, dropping ammo and buffing combat.

Everything else is accessory, not optimal, tedious from these psychos perspective.

DCSS has been the Ship of Theseus in reverse.
They're pealing off mechanics and seeing if the game still is essentially DCSS.

 

[PapaPetro]

You guys ever check out DCSS live runs at https://crawl.develz.org/watch.htm

 

[index.php]

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

Haste also removed? Jesus.

They are destroying the game, whether they know or not.

The endgame is having only the tab key and the god activation skill. And One god, Okawaru, dropping ammo and buffing combat.

Everything else is accessory, not optimal, tedious from these psychos perspective.

DCSS development is like a lot of long running, community developed games. The most vocal people are the ones who have been playing forever and know the game inside and out, so the game keeps getting tuned to their POV. Plus the guy who acts as the main dev, DPEG, is kinda... opinionated... on what constitutes "tedium" and "no-brainers".

I hate the current trap setup where they just randomly happen to you while exploring.

I got pretty jaded with the development when they started just randomly re-gendering and renaming NPCs and uniques for woke and stupid reasons, rather than making the game better. The dev forums are SJW city, I don't know if it's still that way, but essentially for a long time a mentally ill tranny (redundant, i know) named "Duvessa" sort of was the dev's favorite pet poster, and uh... sucked the air out of most discussions.

Still, overall it's a damn good roguelike, very tight design. Maybe too tight at times, but I have to say I don't miss item weight. Hunger was very flavorful and as silly as it might sound, I found it made the game a lot more immersive. I didn't mind when they removed the different kinds of meat though. And who liked victory dancing? Manual skill allocation is so much better. They did totally ruin ogres for some reason...

But they do seem to just want to keep making the game harder. Taking away sources of XP, adding more brutal enemies, the entirety of the "depths", taking away haste, etc. The removal of mountain dwarves was a little before my time but it was the same idea. The removal of high elves didn't really make the game harder but I liked them.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

DCSS is the worst 'popular' roguelike, it sucks everything fun out of the genre.

 

[Matador]

DCSS is the worst 'popular' roguelike, it sucks everything fun out of the genre.

It was my favourite for years. But now I never feel like playing it.

I´m curious, what are your favourite roguelikes?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I´m curious, what are your favourite roguelikes?

I probably have the most hours in nethack + forks, but there's some good newer(relatively speaking) ones like ToME.
ADOM is also very good, but the sequel looks awful.

DCSS feels like the opposite of nethack design, with an explicit emphasis on making a game that's not to be played but to be beaten. It's in the same category as things like games designed for speedrunners.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

I´m curious, what are your favourite roguelikes?

I probably have the most hours in nethack + forks, but there's some good newer(relatively speaking) ones like ToME.
ADOM is also very good, but the sequel looks awful.

DCSS feels like the opposite of nethack design, with an explicit emphasis on making a game that's not to be played but to be beaten. It's in the same category as things like games designed for speedrunners.

Nethack is a whole different kind of thing. Once you know all the crazy secrets it's not as deep as it appears, it's more like OCD simulator with all the stupid gotchas you gotta avoid.
It was fun to beat once but eh...

I hated ADOM but that's just me I think.

ToME is fun, definitely scratches a different itch than DCSS or nethack.

DCSS is kind of a "speedrunners" roguelike I guess. There's no fluff, no town, no quests, just fighting and trying not to die. Very little time is spent choosing what gear to use, it's basically dictated by what you find. You have the strategy of how you build your skills and spells, and the tactics of using them to not die. Although it's very much not designed to be beaten, the devs seem to take it personally if over 1% of games are wins lol. But yeah, the "story" is just a collection of fights and random shit you find. That's what I like so much about it I guess...

Damn now I'm going to play a bunch of dungeon crawl and be annoyed with the changes I don't like. Which is the real metagame of crawl.

 

[Arthandas]

All I need is Infra Arcana and Golden Krone Hotel.