Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Elder Scrolls The Elder Scrolls VI - officially announced but you'll have to wait

Guess the Province/Location

  • Hammerfell

  • High Rock

  • Valenwood

  • Elsweyr

  • Black Marsh

  • Summerset Isle

  • Daggerfall

  • Akavir (kingcomrade)


Results are only viewable after voting.

Zibniyat

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
6,288
A video clip of an early prototype testing NPC interactions has been leaked:



I like teh graphics.


I'm replaying Oblivion now, and I must say that, notwithstanding how basic most conversations between NPCs are, the very fact there are random conversations about things (some of which open up new quests through hearing them) that almost everyone seems to engage in does give a whole new level of life to the game. I have come to hate static, especially unmoving NPCs, who have no more than a sentence to say. Instead of ditching this concept like how it did in Skyrim, Bethesda should have used its vast resources to make the whole thing deeper and broader, with myriads of topics to discuss between NPCs, even about some random personal things of NPCs that are not related to any quest at all. This is the problem with Bethesda, even things which are in principle promising but end up lacking in implementation are scrapped instead being improved and expanded upon.

There are numerous games where, upon entering a market for instance, you are presented with tons of background noise and chatter, as a simple looping audio sound. However entering a Market District of the Imperial City in Oblivion (Cyrodiil) is quite a better experience in that regard, with tons of NPCs walking around and starting conversations. Yes the conversations are mostly short and basic, repeat too often about the same things, but still they add an air of life to the game.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
6,805
Location
Kelethin
I never thought about the staff at Bethesda because I always felt like their games are designed mostly by the public anyway. Fallout exists in a more competitive part of gaming so that's a bit different. But with Elder Scrolls games it seems Bethesda's goal is only to take their earlier products and redo them in a 'streamlined' way. So I always assumed they only had a few decision makers in the company and everyone else was just a techy doing what they are told. Either way the design is clear, reduction. Reduce the number of attributes, factions, spells, item slots, etc.

And I say the games are designed by the public because from Morrowind to Oblivion was a lot of reduction and it was a big success. Then Oblivion to Skyrim even more reduction and 22+ million sales. It's like a household staple now. So the staff are irrelevant, the public decided that reduction is the answer and they voted with their wallets. So the design of Elder Scrolls 6 is obvious, follow the clear pattern. Do the staff matter when that's all you are doing?
 

BruceVC

Magister
Joined
Jul 25, 2011
Messages
3,803
Location
South Africa, Cape Town
I never thought about the staff at Bethesda because I always felt like their games are designed mostly by the public anyway. Fallout exists in a more competitive part of gaming so that's a bit different. But with Elder Scrolls games it seems Bethesda's goal is only to take their earlier products and redo them in a 'streamlined' way. So I always assumed they only had a few decision makers in the company and everyone else was just a techy doing what they are told. Either way the design is clear, reduction. Reduce the number of attributes, factions, spells, item slots, etc.

And I say the games are designed by the public because from Morrowind to Oblivion was a lot of reduction and it was a big success. Then Oblivion to Skyrim even more reduction and 22+ million sales. It's like a household staple now. So the staff are irrelevant, the public decided that reduction is the answer and they voted with their wallets. So the design of Elder Scrolls 6 is obvious, follow the clear pattern. Do the staff matter when that's all you are doing?
I hope they dont change the previous successful design of ES games. Its all about a large, beautiful game world and a true open world sandbox experience

And then mods to make it fantastic, thats all we should expect and demand
 

Zibniyat

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
6,288
voted with their wallets.

Greed (and financial success) is the death of art & entertainment. I mean art & entertainment in the sense that they have both breadth and depth. Beauty, complexity, variety, ingenuity. One would assume that with millions at their disposal, a developer could satisfy both parts of the potential buyers, both the casual players and those seeking complexity, depth and challenge. But no, it is always one side that ultimately is catered to in entirety. And it is not like financial considerations are much of an issue, once you start having sales in the millions (not to mention dozens of millions) it should actually encourage you to add new and interesting things to your games, instead of just dumbing it all down even more. But like I said, greed. It is not without reason that greed is considered a mortal sin by some religions.
 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
3,480
And it is not like financial considerations are much of an issue, once you start having sales in the millions (not to mention dozens of millions)
The more money you have, the more you start spending – the moment a studio gets dozens of millions in sales, it'll double or triple its staff, move to better offices, expand marketing for the next game... It probably won't be quite as financially secure as one would think. And if it makes even more money, it'll start buying up other studios, etc. There won't be a situation where it'd just sit on massive piles of money and do nothing with them. And the bigger it gets, the bigger sales it needs to stay in black numbers...
 

BruceVC

Magister
Joined
Jul 25, 2011
Messages
3,803
Location
South Africa, Cape Town
voted with their wallets.

Greed (and financial success) is the death of art & entertainment. I mean art & entertainment in the sense that they have both breadth and depth. Beauty, complexity, variety, ingenuity. One would assume that with millions at their disposal, a developer could satisfy both parts of the potential buyers, both the casual players and those seeking complexity, depth and challenge. But no, it is always one side that ultimately is catered to in entirety. And it is not like financial considerations are much of an issue, once you start having sales in the millions (not to mention dozens of millions) it should actually encourage you to add new and interesting things to your games, instead of just dumbing it all down even more. But like I said, greed. It is not without reason that greed is considered a mortal sin by some religions.
Would you guys recognize or accept that studios like Bethesda make millions because millions of gamers enjoy there games because they fun?

Thats why I buy all and every Bethesda game, I promise you thats the truth. Their is no other reason
 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
3,480
Would you guys recognize or accept that studios like Bethesda make millions because millions of gamers enjoy there games because they fun?

Thats why I buy all and every Bethesda game, I promise you thats the truth. Their is no other reason
I fully accept that there are millions of gaymers with terminally shit taste like you. I never argued otherwise.
 

BruceVC

Magister
Joined
Jul 25, 2011
Messages
3,803
Location
South Africa, Cape Town
Would you guys recognize or accept that studios like Bethesda make millions because millions of gamers enjoy there games because they fun?

Thats why I buy all and every Bethesda game, I promise you thats the truth. Their is no other reason
I fully accept that there are millions of gaymers with terminally shit taste like you. I never argued otherwise.
Okay good to know, I was worried you didnt realize this :cool:
 

Zibniyat

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
6,288
Would you guys recognize or accept that studios like Bethesda make millions because millions of gamers enjoy there games because they fun?

Of course, nobody questions that, and I would not be replaying Oblivion if it were otherwise. Fun is not the issue. It is a (needless) sacrifice of things which gave breadth or depth to their games, where fun is not even in any way negatively affected by those things previously existing, quite the contrary. For example, in Oblivion there is fast travel, which on the surface is very convenient, but objectively takes away from world-building. Why? Because you have games such as Morrowind, where there were numerous "fast travel" methods that were neatly and seamlessly incorporated into the word: traveling using Silt Striders, teleportation using Mages Guild services, Mark & Recall spell, possibly travel via boat (I do not remember if the last one was present). These things gave a dash of believable world-building, and they were not even expensive to use. And Oblivion and Skyrim? Just magically teleport anywhere without any in-game explanation as to how and why that is possible. And considering the size of these games, for example Oblivion, which is to say they are not really huge as one may think, it takes maybe 5 minutes of real time to travel between any two towns; with in-game transportation like boats and ships, horses and carriages, Mages Guild teleportation etc., that time could probably be reduced to under 1 minute. It is a shame, it is a simple dumbing down without real justification. Even I could make a simple mod that connects, for example, Imperial City with other towns via horse travel; all you need are several NPCs with a few simple scripts made in the Construction Set. In fact, there are such mods available already.

And instead of this dumbing down, a simple decision at Bethesda could have been made to allow players to use either fast travel or these various ways of transportation. It does not cost much of resources to implement and yet it would complement the world nicely, not to mention it would be consistent with their previous title which is Morrowind.

Fun is both a valid argument and a an argument of low value. Everyone has fun doing something, or can have fun. But I can assure you I do not have fun seeing sequels to some of my favourite games butchering these seemingly small details which gave variety to them.​
 

BruceVC

Magister
Joined
Jul 25, 2011
Messages
3,803
Location
South Africa, Cape Town
Would you guys recognize or accept that studios like Bethesda make millions because millions of gamers enjoy there games because they fun?

Of course, nobody questions that, and I would not be replaying Oblivion if it were otherwise. Fun is not the issue. It is a (needless) sacrifice of things which gave breadth or depth to their games, where fun is not even in any way negatively affected by those things previously existing, quite the contrary. For example, in Oblivion there is fast travel, which on the surface is very convenient, but objectively takes away from world-building. Why? Because you have games such as Morrowind, where there were numerous "fast travel" methods that were neatly and seamlessly incorporated into the word: traveling using Silt Striders, teleportation using Mages Guild services, Mark & Recall spell, possibly travel via boat (I do not remember if the last one was present). These things gave a dash of believable world-building, and they were not even expensive to use. And Oblivion and Skyrim? Just magically teleport anywhere without any in-game explanation as to how and why that is possible. And considering the size of these games, for example Oblivion, which is to say they are not really huge as one may think, it takes maybe 5 minutes of real time to travel between any two towns; with in-game transportation like boats and ships, horses and carriages, Mages Guild teleportation etc., that time could probably be reduced to under 1 minute. It is a shame, it is a simple dumbing down without real justification. Even I could make a simple mod that connects, for example, Imperial City with other towns via horse travel; all you need are several NPCs with a few simple scripts made in the Construction Set. In fact, there are such mods available already.

And instead of this dumbing down, a simple decision at Bethesda could have been made to allow players to use either fast travel or these various ways of transportation. It does not cost much of resources to implement and yet it would complement the world nicely, not to mention it would be consistent with their previous title which is Morrowind.

Fun is both a valid argument and a an argument of low value. Everyone has fun doing something, or can have fun. But I can assure you I do not have fun seeing sequels to some of my favourite games butchering these seemingly small details which gave variety to them.​
I just finished my second play through of modded Oblivion and I spent about 280 hours on the game

You must use mods with Oblivion to balance the game and address flawed mechanics like level scaling so Maskars mod becomes a must

You dont have to use the "fast travel " and their is a mod that removes it. I used mostly the Mage Services teleport mod. The point Im making is you can decide how you want play the game and if you want a dumbed down version of the game thats your personal choice

So Im not questioning the vanilla design flaws of Oblivion, Im saying mods address all these problems but end of the day mods are just mods. The overall Oblivion game is still fun and a great experience when you choose the correct mods. Thats what matters so I dont agree with the view its a shit game. I know you not saying its a shit game but others are
 

Zibniyat

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
6,288
You must use mods with Oblivion to balance the game and address flawed mechanics like level scaling so Maskars mod becomes a must

No. I disagree. There is nothing what "must" be done. If one can find it acceptable in other ways. This is not my first replay of Oblivion, after all since it was my first open-world RPG and I played it as a young teenager, I have fond memories of it and am more forgiving compared to other people. And I played Morroind after it. However, years ago, I did play and replay it with various mods, including overhauls such as Oscuro's, Maskar's and that of Waalx.

This time, I play vanilla. Almost vanilla that is, since I do use 1 mod called FOV Modifier, which has only 1 function - to make the default, first-person-view field of view 90 degrees, instead of the default 75 degrees. 75 was always too zoomed in, and changes in the .ini file were always finicky and did not stick. So I play with this one mod. However, I have installed all the Unofficial Patches as well, but I do not consider them mods as their purpose is only to correct what obviously was broken or a mistake (such as landscape tears).

And I am having a great time and enjoying it. Currently more than 20 hours in-game and I am not even maximising my attributes, which is something I intend to make a thread about after I have played a bit more.
 

purupuru

Learned
Joined
Nov 2, 2019
Messages
400
a simple decision at Bethesda could have been made to allow players to use either fast travel or these various ways of transportation
That's basically what they did in Skyrim. There is functional horse carriage in the base game. Then Dawnguard added boats to the ports and Hearthfire added a personal carriage at your steading. Then in Fallout 4 they did a survival mode which bans fast travel but you can call vertibirds. So while dumbing down things is the general direction Bethesda games are going, not every single aspect gets dumbed-down more and more, they do learn from their mistakes occasionally.
 

Funposter

Magister
Joined
Oct 19, 2018
Messages
1,678
Location
Australia
a simple decision at Bethesda could have been made to allow players to use either fast travel or these various ways of transportation
That's basically what they did in Skyrim. There is functional horse carriage in the base game. Then Dawnguard added boats to the ports and Hearthfire added a personal carriage at your steading. Then in Fallout 4 they did a survival mode which bans fast travel but you can call vertibirds. So while dumbing down things is the general direction Bethesda games are going, not every single aspect gets dumbed-down more and more, they do learn from their mistakes occasionally.
The problem is that all of Skyrim's fast travel options are pointless apart from getting to a destination for the first time. So once you have actually visited a city, your options are:

1. Speak to an NPC, pay 20 or 50 gold, go through the animation for sitting in the carriage and listen to that snippet of dialogue, or
2. Click on the map and go there for free

Not much of a decision. Adding to this issue is that the bulk of fast travel is actually occuring after you exit dungeons and go back to town to sell loot, which the exisiting options don't even try to accommodate. It's a whole lot less interesting than Morrowind's web of travel options where you need to learn the strider routes/destinations, switch over to boats for certain areas and make judicious use of Recall and Intervention spells to operate at max efficiency.

At least there are mods for both Oblivion and Skyrim which attach a fee to the Fast Travel mechanic ala Daggerfall, but that's still only fixing half of the issue.
 

purupuru

Learned
Joined
Nov 2, 2019
Messages
400
your options are:

1. Speak to an NPC, pay 20 or 50 gold, go through the animation for sitting in the carriage and listen to that snippet of dialogue, or
2. Click on the map and go there for free
Yeah and obviously a proper Bethesda player would always choose option one for immersion. I particularly enjoy the animation for getting in a carriage and the random comments from the driver.:positive:
Morrowind's web of transportation is of course far superior, I just think it's worth pointing out that after Oblivion's radical stance on fast traveling vs in-game transportation Bethesda actually took a few steps backwards in their later games.
Also I don't agree that adding a fee would make fast travel feel like the way it was in Daggerfall. First of all the fee was optional in Daggerfall, iirc you only need money to use a ship or stay at inns. Secondly when I fast travel in Daggerfall I never feel like the cost was an issue even if I choose all the fancy options since making money is rather easy. I think what makes fast traveling feel meaningful in Daggerfall is that you are clearly told how much time you will spend on the road and that the quests have timers so you actually care about time. Technically fast traveling in Skyrim is not that different from fast traveling in Daggerfall recklessly on foot, the game still advances the clock by the time you should spend in the background, but you are not told how much time that is and you have very little reason to care about time at all.
 

Funposter

Magister
Joined
Oct 19, 2018
Messages
1,678
Location
Australia
Yeah and obviously a proper Bethesda player would always choose option one for immersion. I particularly enjoy the animation for getting in a carriage and the random comments from the driver.:positive:
I know this is a joke, but this attitude always annoys me. It's not "immersive" to jump into a carriage. Just let me click through some dialogue screens and teleport where I need to go with an appropriate time skip.

Morrowind's web of transportation is of course far superior, I just think it's worth pointing out that after Oblivion's radical stance on fast traveling vs in-game transportation Bethesda actually took a few steps backwards in their later games.
Also I don't agree that adding a fee would make fast travel feel like the way it was in Daggerfall. First of all the fee was optional in Daggerfall, iirc you only need money to use a ship or stay at inns. Secondly when I fast travel in Daggerfall I never feel like the cost was an issue even if I choose all the fancy options since making money is rather easy.

When I say "like Daggerfall" I just mean that it costs money. Daggerfall calculates the cost of ships and inns in a pretty rudimentary way (basically the amount of days it takes to travel) which is what these mods do, too. Travel for X amount of hours = Y amount of gold spent, basically simulating the same thing - staying at inns, carriages, boats over river crossings, supplies such as food, etc. I'm happy for this to just be an abstract thing that stops me from fast travelling willy-nilly in the early game and which I stop taking into any real consideration on my budget within a couple of hours into the playthrough.

I think what makes fast traveling feel meaningful in Daggerfall is that you are clearly told how much time you will spend on the road and that the quests have timers so you actually care about time. Technically fast traveling in Skyrim is not that different from fast traveling in Daggerfall recklessly on foot, the game still advances the clock by the time you should spend in the background, but you are not told how much time that is and you have very little reason to care about time at all.
Agreed on all counts. Travelling recklessly in Daggerfall also gives you a chance to catch a disease and arrive without full health, iirc, since you're roughing it in the wilderness. Fast Travel in Daggerfall is an actual mechanic that players need to think about, with options that carry meaningful consequences. Skyrim and Oblivion have teleport buttons.
 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
3,480
I think what makes fast traveling feel meaningful in Daggerfall is that you are clearly told how much time you will spend on the road and that the quests have timers so you actually care about time.
Yeah, that's not coming back. The modern gamer HATES timers with a passion. Any game that includes them in any form inevitably gets shat on. Hell, I remember reading some morons talking about how irredeemably shit the first fallout is... because the main quest is timed. You know, that timer that's so generous that there's absolutely no way it'd ever run out unless you actively tried for it.
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
5,988
Location
Lusitânia
1665613825630673.jpg
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
6,805
Location
Kelethin
Elite already did copy paste planets in the 80s, none of that's impressive today. 1000+ planets or dungeons would only be good if the thing you are copy pasting is good to begin with. If it's 1000 good dungeons in a good game with good combat and items and world, then that would be great. But if it's draugr caves with fish/bird puzzles copy pasted 1000 times then it's just shit x 1000.
 
Joined
Oct 13, 2022
Messages
127
Elite already did copy paste planets in the 80s, none of that's impressive today. 1000+ planets or dungeons would only be good if the thing you are copy pasting is good to begin with. If it's 1000 good dungeons in a good game with good combat and items and world, then that would be great. But if it's draugr caves with fish/bird puzzles copy pasted 1000 times then it's just shit x 1000.
Numbers and promises help sell a game though, midwits lap that shit up. You see that mountain?
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
3,971
Don't forget kids... Those 1000 planets will be populated by creatures with RadiantAI™. Todd don't do no No Man's Sky.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
9,517
So much blasphemy against Todd in this thread when new Todd games are always better than previous ones.
On the one hand, this is a patently untrue statement. On the other hand, given that in the past

Oblivion:rpgcodex:
Oblivion with Guns :fight:
Oblivion with Guns and Skill Checks :happytrollboy:


then perhaps also

Skyrim :rpgcodex:
Skyrim with Guns :fight:
Skyrim with Guns and Skill Checks :happytrollboy:
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Top Bottom