The Eye of the Beholder Thread

[OndrejSc]

 

[Unkillable Cat]

That flyer is for the v1.1 patch, which addressed the biggest problem with EotB3's AESOP engine, it being chock-full of 16-bit bottlenecks in a 32-bit runtime environment.

Many years later the DOSBox crowd then went one better and upgraded the AESOP engine to 32-bit, which completely eliminated the bottlenecks. That patch is present in the GOG release.

 

[Joonas]

The hint files in the All-Seeing Eye automapper were edited and proofread by Unkillable Cat. Also added Cat's notes about the flags in the script files. Thanks!

http://ase.zorbus.net

 

[Unkillable Cat]

For those wondering, consider the ASE script notes 'incomplete'. They were just notes I took down while reading through the game's scripts, and rarely did I take the chance to test them. Take them as they are, but at least they should prove useful.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

I would like to re-play eob. In partiicular eob2. I remember that my father bought me eob2 as a present, after a period in which I was very sick.

 

[anvi]

Eotb2 is awesome. I know every tile of it by memory. I liked EOTB3 too even though it ran like shit.

 

[TwoEdge]

It's about time I revisit these gems, as I've not touched them since forever and can barely remember them. Two questions for you veterans: is there any point in taking NPCs? Specifically, is there any game content based on them? Quests, storylines...? Also, why do people seem to dislike the third installment? I've never played it and planned to rectify it this time around, but if it's subpar I'll skip it. Is it because it is too much of a departure from 1 and 2, or is it severely lacking in quality?

 

[Unkillable Cat]

is there any point in taking NPCs? Specifically, is there any game content based on them? Quests, storylines...?

There is a NPC in the first game you can rescue from captivity by adding him to your party. Returning to his tribe with the respective NPC in the party triggers a unique conversation, but otherwise does nothing beneficial for you. There is an NPC in the second game who will have a negative impact for you (you lose stuff) if being recruited, but beyond those two there is nothing really special about NPCs in the trilogy. The primary goal of NPCs is first and foremost to get extra inventory space, while using them as rear-attack meat shields for your squishy spellcasters coming in at a distant second. Them being useful in combat is a tertiary goal, at best.

Also, wyhy do people seem to dislike the third installment? I've never played it and planned to rectify it this time around, but if it's subpar I'll skip it. Is it because it is too much of a departure from 1 and 2, or is it severely lacking in quality?

It is a departure from the first two games because it doesn't have the same development team. It is also needlessly restrictive in terms of party composition, has 'walking dead' puzzles (meaning that you can screw yourself over and need to reload a saved game) and has some of the most bizarre game design decisions I've seen in a game of its kind. That said, it's not an absolute train wreck, but if you successfully make your way through the first two games and still want more, then give it a go. Just remember that you were warned.

 

[anvi]

The NPCs are not required but you can have them if you want. I think you can only make a party of 4 so you need the NPCs if you want 6, best to take ones that suit your party. In the third game I like to take the guy called Dalamar or something, I wont spoiler unless you want, but he has an ability I like. The third game was a total mess on release, even on a top end PC it would run like crap with really long load times and saving and loading took ages too. It was also really buggy. But neither of those things matter anymore because the bugs are fixed and modern hardware makes the loading/saving fast (although you can still tell it is doing more work than it should). The third game has a bigger and more open world with more outdoor areas, and multiple dungeons. There is one puzzle that I didn't like in the third game, navigating some holes in some thorns was a nuisance, but beyond that I liked everything about it.

I love 2 and quite like 3, didn't particularly like the first one because I don't like mazes. But it is pretty good anyway and it was the first so special. It is a shame they died out.

p.s. there is a sort of puzzle in the second game too which is pretty damn brutal.

 

[TwoEdge]

Unkillable Cat Nice to know, although... Do they take much of a toll in experience? How many levels will travelling with a full entourage cost me at the end? If it's only one or two levels I can handle the tradeoff for more space.

anvi Delmair, I suppose? I googled him and he seems cool, but I'll only take NPCs if that doesn't gimp spell levels too hard. I'm curious about the puzzle you mentioned, though, what is so brutal about it?

 

[anvi]

That's it Delmair I liked him. I'm not sure how much xp is affected by having a bigger party, although I know that you can transfer your party that completed the previous game to the next one, which usually ends up higher level than starting with a fresh party. I could never get that to work though so I've never tried it.

So EOTB2, there is an undead area of the dungeon that is pretty damn tough and as a kid I could never beat it. All my hits would miss, all my spells would be resisted, and I got torn to shit every time. I went back years later once I knew the significance of levels, and I did some grinding to kill every enemy I could find before that point, even running through a few older areas a second time to kill some respawns. That was enough to let me beat the undead area. But then the next area after that... holy jeez. I don't really know how to describe it without spoilers but basically make sure you save before you go there and don't go over that save (you can name the saves). It is really hard to navigate and you might end up needing to reload that previous save and trying it all over again once you figured things out. I guess you could do it first time if you are good, especially if you use a map and pay attention to the compass. But it is pretty tough. Again, as a kid I struggled with it and I don't think I ever beat it as a kid. Again I played the game again years later and it was easy once you know where to go and what to do.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Unkillable Cat Nice to know, although... Do they take much of a toll in experience? How many levels will travelling with a full entourage cost me at the end? If it's only one or two levels I can handle the tradeoff for more space.

XP is (generally) awarded in two ways: Killing things and doing things. The "Killing things"-XP is always a fixed number equal to the monster's XP value which is divided up among party members, but the "Doing things"-XP seems to be multiplied by the number of members in the party. For example, in the first three floors of EoB1 every XP award is divisible by four (because you won't have any NPCs in your party there) but by the fourth floor they start becoming divisible by five, because you can get your first NPC there. The script notes mentioned above seem to support this.

What does this all mean for potential XP gain of your party? Not much, as all three games have XP-farmable monsters which renders the XP drain of the NPCs irrelevant. You do gotta put in some time to 'max out' the XP cap of the games, especially the third one.

If you're looking to max out your Mage's XP, here's a tip for EOB2:

Spoiler

There comes a puzzle in the game where you have to cast Dispel Magic at some statues to make them go away and progress in the game. Immediately after that a passage opens which leads to an old guy sitting on a throne. He offers to impart his wisdom to your party, if one of your party members touches him. Doing so makes the character in question immediately gain a level. Time this event right with your Mage (meaning: have him reach Lvl 11 first) and you can make him double his XP in a flash! That might take some doing, up to the point of ignoring the old geezer and Going On with the game until he has enough XP under his belt.

 

[weirwood]

I played through the first two games last year, and enjoyed them a lot, but EOB3 is just so lackluster that my interest tapered out fairly quickly. There's just no effort put into the writing and the level design.

Picking up extra characters is mostly useful to bring additional spell casters; you can get a lot of powerful thrown weapons in EOB1 if you do the special quests, but picking them up after each fight is a chore. In EOB2, slings and bows are bugged and will only do 1 damage, no matter what projectiles you use. You can import magical daggers and darts from EOB1, but you need to put them all on the four characters you're going to import. The ones you can find in EOB2 have much lower enchantments, so again, not worth the bother.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

In EOB2, slings and bows are bugged and will only do 1 damage, no matter what projectiles you use.

Interesting, I had never heard of this. Can you provide any kind of evidence?

You can import magical daggers and darts from EOB1, but you need to put them all on the four characters you're going to import. The ones you can find in EOB2 have much lower enchantments, so again, not worth the bother.

EOB1 is literally drowning in throwing weapons, and beating some of the special quests nets you a bunch of throwing weapons with +4/+5 enchantments... but there's a spot in the game where you can grab some +9 darts if you can cheat yourself through some walls. Sadly those darts in particular do not transfer over to EOB2, as they're not intended to be used by the player at any point.

 

[Desiderius]

Is there a link anywhere to all the special quests and their rewards? Can't believe I found all but three at the time I think, and beat EotB2 with no hints. Google hath corrupted us all.

 

[Desiderius]

So when EotB2 first came out I loaded onto my business laptop for my first business trip for my first job out of college.

Children, do not do dis.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Is there a link anywhere to all the special quests and their rewards? Can't believe I found all but three at the time I think, and beat EotB2 with no hints. Google hath corrupted us all.

Here you go...

1st floor: There's a shelf with some magic scrolls. Put a dagger into the shelf and it'll be transformed into the +4 'Guinsoo' dagger.
2nd floor: There are four dagger inscriptions in total dotted around the level. Place a dagger in each carving and some rations will spawn in front of all of them.
3rd floor: Once you've used the four gems to open up the passage to the fourth floor, go back and remove the four gems. Stuff will appear in the exit room.
4rth floor: There's a circular passageway where you 'push' a wall in front of you. If you go through it the right way, pick up the key in the passage and then 'lock it in place' by pulling a nearby chain, the party gains experience.
5th floor: Place some rations in the shelf marked 'Pantry'. They'll be transformed into Iron Rations.
6th floor: Find all ten Kenku eggs, then place them all in the room marked 'Nest. The walls will disappear, revealing the +5 Chieftain's Halberd, one of the best weapons in the trilogy.
7th floor: In the room with all the Stone Portals, place Portal Keys into the three shelves there. You'll get three scrolls with cryptic clues.
8th floor: Find the room with the empty dart launchers in the wall, and put a dart into each one. Step on the pressure plate by the door when you're done, and the launchers will all fire +5 Adamantite Darts.
9th floor: There's a 3x3 room with writing on the East wall which reads: "It is written, the key lies on the other side". Throw an item into the East wall and a passage will appear, revealing three Orbs of Power.
10th floor: In the Southeastern corner of the floor there's a room with stationary Manti and some shelves. Put Kenku eggs in the shelves (you still have a few, right?) and four Mantis Warriors will spawn in, and each one is supposed to drop a magic ring.
11th floor: Mess around with the Hall of Levers so that the second and seventh levers face up, while all the other levers face down. You get a clue for the final Special Quest, as well as lots of XP.
12th floor: Kill Xanathar by having him die to his own trap. To do this you either use the Wand of Silvias to push him into it, or use an AI exploit to make him go in there by himself.

 

[Desiderius]

Hey, making me want to play it again. Love, loved, loved that game. 12th brings back particularly fond memories.

 

[Jarpie]

A while ago I tried to get fanmade AGA version of EOB2 to work on ScummVM but no such luck, I hope they'll add the support for it later on.

 

[weirwood]

Interesting, I had never heard of this. Can you provide any kind of evidence?

I think I read about it first on the GOG forums, or maybe some Russian place, and the All-Seeing Eye can show you monster hitpoints, so I tested it myself.

A lot of people say that you don't really need a thief in the series, and that's somewhat true. In EOB1, the only area where you won't find enough keys to unlock all doors is on the Dwarven levels; you'll either miss out on some loot, or you won't be able to unlock the stairs down and have to use the stone gates (or maybe a pit) to go lower. I think it's possible to drop into the dwarf camp area from above, and have the NPC halfling thief resurrected there to unlock all pickable doors, if you're really min-maxing. In EOB2, the first NPC thief you find will abandon you when you camp, but the only doors that can be picked are in the first dungeon area and in the priest quarters above. You can keep him around long enough to unlock all those doors without resting, and you should find the remains of Khelben's scout in the priest quarters that way, who's a thief/mage that can cover any locks you missed. In EOB3, the only use of lockpicks is a stuck lever that can also be forced with a potion or gauntlets of strength - and you'll only find an NPC fighter/thief after you've passed that area.

However, and that's pretty relevant for the first two games, a single class cleric can do sweet fuck-all in the rear ranks, besides casting, while mages can use wands, daggers and darts. My solution the last time was to bring a gnome cleric/thief, as that way your cleric also can chuck all the best thrown weapons, and you've got lockpicking covered.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

A lot of people say that you don't really need a thief in the series, and that's somewhat true. In EOB1, the only area where you won't find enough keys to unlock all doors is on the Dwarven levels; you'll either miss out on some loot, or you won't be able to unlock the stairs down and have to use the stone gates (or maybe a pit) to go lower. I think it's possible to drop into the dwarf camp area from above, and have the NPC halfling thief resurrected there to unlock all pickable doors, if you're really min-maxing. In EOB2, the first NPC thief you find will abandon you when you camp, but the only doors that can be picked are in the first dungeon area and in the priest quarters above. You can keep him around long enough to unlock all those doors without resting, and you should find the remains of Khelben's scout in the priest quarters that way, who's a thief/mage that can cover any locks you missed. In EOB3, the only use of lockpicks is a stuck lever that can also be forced with a potion or gauntlets of strength - and you'll only find an NPC fighter/thief after you've passed that area.

However, and that's pretty relevant for the first two games, a single class cleric can do sweet fuck-all in the rear ranks, besides casting, while mages can use wands, daggers and darts. My solution the last time was to bring a gnome cleric/thief, as that way your cleric also can chuck all the best thrown weapons, and you've got lockpicking covered.

It's perfectly possible to finish the Dwarven camp area in EOB1 without running out of Dwarven keys (IIRC you can even end up with a surplus). Not every door needs to be opened there, and some can also be picked open.

The last locks that can be picked open in EOB2 are on the bottom floor of the Silver Tower.

A Gnome Cleric/Thief is fine for EOB1/2, but there's a nasty surprise coming for anyone who's planning on using that character in EOB3...

Let's face it, Thieves in EOB are an afterthought.

 

[Eisen]

EOB trilogy is free for 48 hours

https://af.gog.com/game/forgotten_realms_the_archives_collection_one?as=1649904300

 

[Mikado]

I got the trilogy free on GOG last week, and started with EoB3. I finished 1 and 2 over 20 years ago, and I remember never getting very far with 3, and getting frustrated, so I thought I'd give it a chance. I wanted to import a party from EoB1 and 2 over, but tried EoB3 out first with a new party. It wasn't as bad as I remembered, but the portraits were horrible. Some of them were barely recognisable from the earlier versions in EoB 1 and 2. I played as far as the Mages Guild, and then decided to start from 1 again, to test out the new nifty automap which came with ASE. It was amazing!

Spoiler alert!

In under 12 hours of playtime (the Coronavirus lockdown helped as I now work from home), I finished EoB and exported my team over to EoB2. All those memories came flooding back, and I recall the NPCs like my old friends. Anya, the simple-minded redhead fighter who fired a mean bow, Ileria, the cute half-elf cleric who for some reason lacked spiritual direction with only 9 wisdom, Dorhum the brave young dwarf who eagerly joined my team when we set off to look for Keirgar, Taghor the old dwarf who we saved from his wounds, Keirgar the prince himself. My only regret was replacing Dorhum with Keirgar because I needed to escort him back, and I lost Dorhum forever. If only he could be rehired... My fighter slew Xanathar alongside Keirgar, Anya, Ileria, Tyrra and Kirath, after which I journeyed to Darkmoon with Anya, Ileria and Kirath.

So far in Darkmoon we've rescued Insal, Shorn and Calandra, although Insal ran away pretty early. We're searching for Amber's body, but I read somewhere that you actually need a thief to reach her, which is annoying. Insal leaves fairly early on, and after that it's a long trek through the Catacombs before you finally take the portal over to the Temple. By then Insal left leaving me thiefless, and Calandra and Shorn make up the team. I can't recall how I got Amber 20 years ago - maybe one of my team was a multiclass thief or something. In this playthrough, I was very keen to play solo with NPC companions, and so it looks like I'd have to load a save game, and somehow not rest through all the catacombs. The ironic thing is that Amber was going to be the one who was going to provide me with what little thief skills I needed in the team, and somehow you need those skills to reach her.

Says a lot about how fun the game is that I'm actually looking forward to reloading a few hours back and replaying the area. It's not that bad as Anya and my fighter are well-geared up from EoB1, while Ileria's 9 wisdom doesn't seem to stop her from being usable (I'm sure they got her wisdom and constitution the wrong way around, but it's charming to imagine a poor cleric who keeps making bad choices). Kirath will probably make way for Amber as he's really weak (mainly because you only get him at the end of EoB, and he lags behind in exp badly), but I'm wondering how my team will handle the Catacombs without a wizard (because I seriously can't leave Shorn or Calandra where they were). One thing for sure is that it's going to be a fun ride!

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Thanks for your post Mikado it's always fun to see and read fresh perspectives on such timeless classics.

To confirm, you do need a Thief-character in your party to find Amber's body. It's also one of two 'Thief-exclusive'-moments in all three games. (The other one is not too far away.)

If you've been through the upper catacombs you should have the... uhm... 'raw ingredients' for another NPC, who is a very frail but very competent Mage. Certainly someone to compare to Kirath.

You have only one other NPC to look forward to, and he may possibly replace Ileria, the choice is yours.

As for the lower catacombs - you'll wants Mages for raw firepower against the monsters, but for survivability you'll want Clerics, and Shorn can turn out to be a trooper here.

 

[anvi]

That's cool playing through the whole trilogy with the same party, I've still never done that. I've done 2 and 3 lots of times but never played the first game for more than an hour or so. I really liked EOB3. Sucked at release but these days it is worth a play through for fans of blobbers.