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TBS The Fall From Heaven Thread [Civ 4 mod] - 2016 Edition™ - 2022 Update!

Lampros

Literate
Joined
Jul 7, 2017
Messages
14
Are there versions of this mod for Civ 5 or 6?
 

aitch-hat

Barely Literate
Joined
Sep 3, 2017
Messages
2
Great start, mate! Just wondering if you planned to finish off your posts? I'd love to see your exploration of AoE and MoM.
 

exe

Augur
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Messages
359
People have been saying Civ6 is worse than 5 and also unfixable, whats the big difference between 5 and 6?
 

flyingjohn

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2012
Messages
2,956
People have been saying Civ6 is worse than 5 and also unfixable, whats the big difference between 5 and 6?
Ai is worse at combat and agendas make diplomacy worse then ever.
Eureka's force you down a narrow production/research path.
Too little tech and unit variety.
No balance whatever between free and dlc civs.
Each new patch introduces new bugs that will get fixed several months later.
Graphics look like mobile shit.
No un/world congress.
Mod tools suck and any full conversions are not happening anytime soon.

Everything else is better,but the game is not unfixable.If any competent 4x director made a expansion it could be a nice game.
Unfortunetly the civ 6 team is both incompetent and has no imagination whatsoever,so expect the expansions to have useless features like watching your artifacts in a museum or just adding stuff they removed like un.
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,119
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Codex+ Now Streaming!
Can't find any better Civ4 thread so here goes.

There's a Nightdive sale on Steam, including the original Colonization. When I saw that I immediately got a boner. SMC is easily in my TOP10 games ever. I played it to death tho and I know Firaxis made a total conversion mod for Civ4. I seem to remember I tried it on release but hated it. I'll be fucked tho if I remember why. I think the general consensus was pretty bad at that time too.

Anyone played it? Do you remember what was wrong with the mod? Has it gotten better over the years? Is it worth playing now or do I really have to stick to the original?

Oh and I don't suppose there are any rumors about Firaxis trying to have another go at the formula?
 

Humanophage

Arcane
Joined
Dec 20, 2005
Messages
5,046
Update 1: I have been playing Ashes of Erebus as Kuriotates, and it is not as messy as it first seemed, except towards the end - but so does Civ itself. It is true that some 'pedia entries are missing, but there is enough flavour text at any rate, and its quality is often lacking. The sheer amount of options prevents excessive exploitation of the system, and there is a sense of mystery to how other civilizations operate. Unlike in Civ, where you know the tech tree perfectly well, and do everything with that in mind, here the situation is a bit less well-determined.

Bad events (e.g., a promising city was crippled by a -2 pop, -6 happiness event early on, and then was beset by powerful barbarians) prevent the player from getting the upper hand early on, and sometimes the events are truly crippling. E.g., I had a peaceful elephant in my borders who hanged around for about 100 turns, but then it seemingly grew in power and started attacking my forts. I wasted quite a lot of units trying to counter this. Another time, it turned out that the only plausible plot into which I could expand came to be occupied by a dragon. The AI is a little odd with wars. E.g., the lizard race declared war on me in spite of good relations - I presume because I blocked a location they wanted, which is a common case for vanilla AI aggression. Flavourful maps add to the sense of discovery. I would advise playing on flat maps, as this further distances AoE from the original Civ. I also don't play on maps that exceed Small to avoid tedious micromanagement - I imagine it would be even worse here than in vanilla BtS.

Update 2: I tried playing as the Khazad (on Immortal), and they are comically overpowered. With golden age on turn 180 on normal speed, I have four times the gold output of the second-best civ, 2.5 times the production. Without it, it is merely three times as much gold and twice the prod. I am completely invincible due to dwarven settlements and mountains, am on my way to overtaking a neighbouring civ, and am one of two advanced civs with access to a huge continent in which to expand. Oh yes, the top two cities are mine. I have already had two golden ages, one of them because of a wonder. While the Kuriotates have to be very careful because of barbarians, the Khazad are more or less immune to them. They really need some penalties to food production, or perhaps their special ability has to be weakened.

So, my experience with modmodmodmods

Rise from Erebus + Ashes of Erebus - meh. Added new civs and lots of additions and changes here and there. But there is no system to that, so changes are rarely to the good, and quite often to the bad. Gui is particularly crap. What's worse, AI is dumb. I have not see them fight with each other, they develop slowly, and one time I was declared on, enemy has not even bothered to send an army my way.

Master of Mana + Master of Mana Xtended 3 - great. Master of Magic meets Alpha Centauri. Very different economy, very different magic. Support spells (such as Blur) work as auras, so you only need to have a one adept per 6 or so troops to get full bonus of all support spells you have learned. Summoned units and priestlikes also have their own sets of auras. Town-buffing spells are global enchantments, that work like in MoM (lots of mana upfront, some mana for upkeep). Lots of terraforming spells. I was a little disappointed, though, that serious terraforming spells like earth->ocean is not working outside your borders. Also, city does not seem to became coastal when you sink a square besides it.

And what's especially good, is that AI is adequate. They expand, fight with each other, and can use doomstacks, even overseas. I had very annoying war with Svaltalfar - they have parked their doomstack just outside my borders and atacked on the same turn they declare. Just like I do:) And if they see that one city is defended, they move to another and attack it instead.

Master of Mana 2.11 + Master of Mana Xtended 4.1 - very different from previous. Pretty much everything is overhauled, especially economy. In Xtended3 many buildings and improvements was giving special resources - lumber, herbs, stone and metal. They were mostly luxury stuff (not in game luxury meaning) - you could buff your units with them, rush building with stone etc. But in Xtended4 they are mandatory for most improvements and buildings. Also, improvements cost gold and resources to build too. Even farms costs a hefty sum of gold and stone now. So, most of time you can't build shit, because you don't have resources. It's quite annoying, but it makes game much more deep, and you have to think hard on each turn much earlier.
I tried Master of Mana + Master of Mana Xtended 3, and it was quite a mess. While the mechanics with resources and items look great and interesting on paper, the AI is pathetic, and many things seem oddly balanced. For instance, someone came up with the idea of generously sprinkling deer all over the map while making them give you 9 food and a hammer with a camp. It is also intensely buggy: on certain maps, the AI won't develop at all (only maps marked MoM seem to work right). Even when it does appear to function, it doesn't send units to take a village right on its borders. I certainly did not encounter any stacks of doom. Are we talking about the same thing? I mean this one. Since there are several versions of MoM that appear to be quite different from one another, I'd greatly appreciate being pointed towards the best-polished MoM version, because I spent several hours trying to find conditions under which it would work, to be rewarded only with a headache and no functional game.

AoE looks like a mess because of excessive options, but the AI is reasonably capable there, because the core gameplay isn't that different from the original Civ. For example, I liked how the Illian timed his unique spell to take over the two leaders at the time. The Elohim cleverly cast the protective spell when they were suddenly attacked from two sides. The AIs were certainly fairly aggressive towards one another, though not to me, for some reason - I suppose because I deliberately tried to keep relations friendly. Also, the buildings are so abundant that you will probably fall behind if you begin building a reasonable amount of units. The start is also a somewhat more dynamic experience because the mod keeps throwing diverse challenges at you, while in MoM all you do is run about with a hawk and a trapper, avoiding stationary barbarians (the AI seems to have no grasp of that tactic, so you end up getting all the massive bonuses from villages).
 
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v1rus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,254
Rite, always wanted to try this out, but i dont know where the fuck to start.

Is fall from heaven 2 a good starting point? Or fall further? Or one of those erebus thingies?
 

exe

Augur
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Messages
359
FFH2 is a great start, you even get some "campaigns" if you don't just want to do random sandbox.
 

covr

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 3, 2006
Messages
1,319
Location
Warszawa
Rite, always wanted to try this out, but i dont know where the fuck to start.

Is fall from heaven 2 a good starting point? Or fall further? Or one of those erebus thingies?
Fall further. It is basically patched FFH2 with minor addictions.
Edit: sorry, got mistaken with some other mod. For patched ffh2 you should try MagisterModmod, fall further actually adds tons of new stuff.
 

InD_ImaginE

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
5,411
Pathfinder: Wrath
Yeah MoM Extended is dead for a while, but simply on the scale of the change to FFH, Master of Mana is probably the most fun. But like everything else in FfH the AI is not capable of utilizing the advance features. MoM being more complex means that the AI is more braindead.
 

Urthor

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2015
Messages
1,872
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Oh dear, the nostalgia is rolling into me now.

FFH2 is absolutely one the goats of all time.

Is there anything like this for Civ 6? Haven't given a mod like this a spin in a decade.
 

InD_ImaginE

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
5,411
Pathfinder: Wrath
Civ modding is dead after Civ 4 because starting from Civ 5 there is no .dll access which means unlikely there is going to be anything complex enough from modding scene outside of number adjustment and the occasion new units or the likes.
 

Eyestabber

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
4,733
Location
HUEland
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Civ modding is dead after Civ 4 because starting from Civ 5 there is no .dll access which means unlikely there is going to be anything complex enough from modding scene outside of number adjustment and the occasion new units or the likes.

Look on the bright side:

EMM was updated on Sep 2021
Realism Invictus - Dec 2021
Chronicles of Mankind - 2022. The modder answered my questions last week
Advanced Civ - March 2022

The Civ 4 modding community is very much alive and well. Any of you speak German? I hear BASE is very good. But it's German only. =\
 

Eyestabber

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
4,733
Location
HUEland
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
My settings:

Map: World of Erebus
Size: Small -> trust me, that's big enough. 63x39 tiles. Standard is 83x51.
Sea level/cohesion -> either low/high for a semi pangea or mid/mid for continents. I hate archipelagos.
Mountains: Fewer
Desert chance: reduced -> there's still plenty of desert. At standard most of the map will be desert.
Tundra: standard or reduced. Depends on whether or not I'm including Illians/Doviello.
Jungle chance: reduced. Nobody benefits from jungles. Bleh.
Rivers and lakes: increased. We all love rivers.
Flexible/increasing difficulty -> we start at either Monarch or Emperor, depending on how comfortable I feel with my civ and work up to Deity.
Leaders -> I like disabling extras/scenario, but it's not a big deal.

Bulb strategy:

Worth reading: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...in-one-city-or-distribute-across-many.142704/

These are the techs you might wanna bulb into because otherwise the AI will 100% beat you to them:

Way of The Earthmother: Mysticism + Mining. Get a pagan temple ASAP, hire a priest and wait for the GPPs.
Way of the Forests: Mysticism + Hunting. Same as before, but with Hunting instead of Mining.
Precision: ALMOST impossible since so many AIs beeline this tech, but you could try by using a Great Engineer to bulb Bowyers. Engineers are hard to come by, unless you go RoK (Mines of Gal Dur and their Shrine give Eng slots).
Sorcery: great sage after researching any school of magic. No rewards for rushing BUT it unlocks the alchemy lab while being a very expensive tech.
Arcane Lore: burn a sage after sorcery, get a free sage. Also unlocks Scholarship and the +100% Beakers wonder.
Drama: zero chance of getting this w/o bulbing a Great Bard.
Mercantilism: heavily prioritized by the AI, but it's worth a Great Merchant + the BEST economy civic for the mid-to-lategame. Again, spend a merchant, get a merchant.
Corruption of the Spirit/Orders from Heaven: the AI will either beeline or simply ignore them. Not worth a bulb imo.

Another option is the Tower of Divination. It works much like The Oracle in vanilla, but it's a national wonder instead. You need the Divination tech + Law/Sun/Spirit/Mind/Creation mana. Upon completion you get one free tech. Divine Essence is the prime candidate, but Strength of Will, Omniscience and Future Tech are all viable alternatives.
 

Urthor

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2015
Messages
1,872
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Civ modding is dead after Civ 4 because starting from Civ 5 there is no .dll access which means unlikely there is going to be anything complex enough from modding scene outside of number adjustment and the occasion new units or the likes.

Right in the childhood.
 

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