Decline The new Thiaf game is MASSIVE decline - Eidos Forum Refugee Camp

[Azazel]

Right, but even the lazy start to feel offended once you cross a certain level of hand-holding. The blithering idiot on the other hand will obliviously mash X till the game is done and then go rate it 10/10 on Gamefaqs.

 

[skacky]

• Thief's designers, aside from drawing from D&D and the Ffahrd & Grey Mouser stories, were also familiar with Thieves Guild, the late 70s thief-centric D&D clone made by Gamelords. That's kinda amazing - Thieves Guild is seven kinds of awesome, but I never thought anyone but really old people or collectors knew about it.

Awesome. My theory about how Garrett was supposed to be like a D&D thief was just that - a theory. I'm actually semi-surprised that it turned out to be true.

I've always seen Thief 1 as a D&D type of adventure, especially since it has grave robbing and other unconventional scenarios you don't find in Thief 2, which is a more or less straight burglar simulator.

 

[Sonus]

I've been surprised in past discussions when avid D&D players deny ever noticing it. I never played, but I had a roommate who was heavily into it, and while playing Dark Project and Metal Age the first time, it was glaringly obvious. I wrote up stories and created art for many of his pen and paper campaigns, based on Thief, when we both saw how ripe it was for it, and how many elements easily converted. There are several interviews and promo materials form the early years, where the devs mention their sources of inspiration, and I'm currently going through Babylon 5 for the second time, looking for possible bits. There are some big ones, and some that are likely coincidences, yet fun anyhow.

 

[Esquilax]

There is a definite distinction between a casual gamer and one that is just plain stupid, and the vast majority of AAA gameplay "innovations" recently are definitely pandering to the latter.

Absolutely. I mean, I was nine fucking years old and I managed to figure Thief: The Dark Project out for myself somehow. If a child can understand that game after a few hours and perhaps a little bit of frustration, it doesn't really take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

They're just trying to make games for the deferred success audience. Have some tact.

 

[Melan]

I agree with most they said but I don't know if I can believe on this.

It's actually true. People who aren't much into gaming are actually more likely to enjoy something complex with interesting gameplay than a dumbed down newshit game that is all about being AWESOME and FLASHY. It's the console kiddies who spend all day gaming who are most impressed by SHINY GRAFFIX and who want to feel cool by playing the next big thing on their hip console.

Randy was mostly speaking on the subject in reference to his recent work on mobile games, but I think the point also stands on its own. Thief itself isn't a casual game (too relentlessly brutal), but it often appeals to people outside the typical gamer demographic, and it is way, way outside the focus-grouped dudebro "target audience" the AAA shit-train is chasing.

Awesome. My theory about how Garrett was supposed to be like a D&D thief was just that - a theory. I'm actually semi-surprised that it turned out to be true.

They talked a lot about consciously trying to replicate the D&D thief's skills in the game. Something they note (and which I can confirm based on my own AD&D experiences) is that these skills don't really work in a party-based game, but translate well to the PC where you are playing a single protagonist. More generally, they tried to build a lot of "what a thief would do" situations into the first game, and this influenced their mission design - the ability to carry unconscious bodies turned into the rescue objective in Cragscleft Prison, for instance.

Absolutely. I mean, I was nine fucking years old and I managed to figure Thief: The Dark Project out for myself somehow. If a child can understand that game after a few hours and perhaps a little bit of frustration, it doesn't really take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

Frustration is the big no-no, since focus group-centric design tends to fixate on, and cater to complainers. The way to get your voice heard and influence design decision is to complain; quiet satisfaction gets you nowhere. There is a general lack of understanding in the game industry about the benefits of creative frustration, triumph over adversity and that kind of thing, while everyone understands that complaints are bad. So in the end, you get games that specifically cater to the loudest, most petulant whiners of those focus group sessions, the pond scum of gaming.

Coincidentally, CliffyB just made a slightly similar point on his tumblr:

I remember sitting there with designers looking at videos of gamers getting lost in just the simplest of maps. A bare bones map, and they have no idea where to go. So, we’d make things a bit more linear. They can’t figure out how to perform a move? Force a tooltip on them! (no one reads that shit unless it’s on a loading screen anyways.)

The problem wasn’t the game. The problem wasn’t that it was hard or too difficult. The problem was that the folks in the focus group didn’t put down $60 of their OWN HARD EARNED MONEY to BUY THE GAME.

Their hearts aren’t in it. The first sign of something being a little tricky or confusing and they stop and write it down or it’s noted. It’d be as if someone who hadn’t run much in their life suddenly decided to go for a jog and found out it was too hard and was then denied the satisfaction of a completed run.

 

[DraQ]

Come on sea, it's pretty much straight up dumbing down the mechanic, which honestly isn't particularly complex to begin with. His point is also just plainly bullshit, as there's no point in Thief where you need to slowly walk over a marble floor in earsight of enemies.

You don't even need to have played the game to notice that.

Replacing surface dependent noise with generic one would be inexcusable decline even if it was purely cosmetic aspect, which it isn't.

As a mechanics, having entire noisiness landscape you need to navigate and account for is unambigously superior to having none, and it doesn't preclude addition of additional sources of noise like broken glass (even dynamically, when actually breaking glass) so it isn't even any sort of trade-off.

• "You should trust the simulation. You build the simulation, but never try to make it do specific things like ... what we want is for the player to do something cool in the world, and not tell them 'You can't do that right now'. ... Trust the system, put the player on stage was a pretty big [part of the design philosophy]."

Coincidentally, CliffyB just made a slightly similar point on his tumblr:

CliffyB is talking sense.

The end is nigh.

 

[J_C]

I'll be damned, there is a lot of truth in that Cliffy post.

 

[Ninjerk]

Never forget that he made Gears. Never forget.

 

[Echo Mirage]

I don't think microsoft or anyone else will ever let us forget it.

 

[Angthoron]

Never forget that he made Gears. Never forget.

That may be, but he didn't force the industry to ape the shit out of Gears' design.

 

[Telengard]

Do we blame Moses Kill Switch for laying the foundation. Or do we blame Jesus Gears of War for creating a new guiding light in the industry. Or do we blame all of those who blindly followed the path that Gears of War laid out.














Let the Romans lead the way. To the cross with him!

 

[SharkClub]

Thiaf is apparently selling well, probably due to the fact that the Xbone & PS4 have literally no games at the moment and it came out in a time to take advantage of that before anything good came out.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

Do we blame Moses Kill Switch for laying the foundation. Or do we blame Jesus Gears of War for creating a new guiding light in the industry. Or do we blame all of those who blindly followed the path that Gears of War laid out.

Let's forgive kill.switch for using those systems. It was something rather fresh when it came out.
Can't say the same about Gears of War, though.

 

[DraQ]

Do we blame Moses Kill Switch for laying the foundation. Or do we blame Jesus Gears of War for creating a new guiding light in the industry. Or do we blame all of those who blindly followed the path that Gears of War laid out.

Let's kill them all and let god sort them out.

 

[deuxhero]

Thiaf is apparently selling well, probably due to the fact that the Xbone & PS4 have literally no games at the moment and it came out in a time to take advantage of that before anything good came out.

If this is true, hopefully it becomes like Tomb Raider, a product with such a stupidly bloated budget that even selling millions of copies is a loss.

 

[7/10]

My most memorable Thiaf experience was spending 10 seconds spamming "E" in order to open a window leading to a room that took about 15 seconds to rob and then spending another 10 seconds opening the same window in order to get out.

 

[CSM]

If this is true, hopefully it becomes like Tomb Raider, a product with such a stupidly bloated budget that even selling millions of copies is a loss.

Tomb Raider has sold enough in the meantime.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/on...ider-nearing-6-million-in-sales/1100-6418162/

 

[Sonus]

Yeah, we may watch this title go on to sell plenty over time.

 

[Melan]

Thiaf is apparently selling well, probably due to the fact that the Xbone & PS4 have literally no games at the moment and it came out in a time to take advantage of that before anything good came out.

Where are your arguments for the existence of God now, Aquinas?

 

[Turjan]

Where are your arguments for the existence of God now, Aquinas?

God is a casual gamer?

"This game sucks, let's start over. I'll press this button that says "Deluge" and see what happens."

 

[Unkillable Cat]

If God is a casual gamer, he's been AFK for a while now.

 

[Turjan]

If God is a casual gamer, he's been AFK for a while now.

That was implied. I mean, how long does a casual gamer stick to one game?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Long enough to ragequit.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Insomnia taunts me, I turned on my t.v.;
Rapt in the arms of a galaxy spiral.
Heard a sea-shell hid it's secret as well.
This nexus is key to our planets survival.

One precious moment it all became clear;
Brain-cloud-haze lifted by euphoric fear.
To the unknown my mind's eye directed;
Beheld every mote in creation connected.

No more Hereafter, eugenics our master;
Sectarist lecture mere witless hubris.
Humanity's blunder was ceasing to wonder;
Why are we here; what's the meaning of this?

Virtual church without actual sages;
Souls under scrutiny, rats in glass cages.
Enigmas deciphered are no longer needed;
Lost words of warning unheard or unheeded.

We're all hooked-up to the vast karmic internet;
Each of our souls on the end of its fibre.
One sacred fact that we can't download yet;
The truth is we share the same service-provider.

The atheist plays whilst the orthodox pray.
Fundamentalists freak-out as humanists scoff.
A headlong collision 'twixt science and religion;
There'll be Hell to pay
when one day God logs-off.