Jagged Alliance The RPG genre is weak. Very weak. Probably the weakest traditional genre in gaming

[Lilura]

Wizardry 8 which I consider the superior SirTech RPG

lol furries

 

[Ninjerk]

Jagged Allience 2 - Could never get into it.

So I'm gonna give it another go. At what point, and roughly how many hours in, does it really click with everyone?

I can only speak for myself in saying that I loved it from the first moment, but that was also when the game was new.

But then again, I already liked the first Jagged Alliance, even if I was too young to really appreciate it.

Cheers mate. That's fair dinkum.

If Jagged Allience had a penis, Lilura would be leaking spunk out of her ears by now after how much love fluid she's ingested over the years from it. But I keep reading about it, and rarely does anyone say why it's so good, or when those elements fall into place.

I found it really crap & empty at the start though, but bare in mind first time I played it was 2017.

I might try it again, but it'd be nice to know if there's a point roughly where it all starts to click, and all the gameplay & good elements have shown their hand (e.g. in the original X-Com I fell for it the point when Chrissalids first arrived on the scene)

What's good about it was evident (for me, at least) the first time I played the demo (whose content is not available in the main game, afaik). Its granularity in terms of combat options is simply peerless. The character building system is intuitive and rewarding without being tedious. The strategic layer gives plenty to do in terms of down time between large battles. The feeling that you are managing one of those 80s Schwarzeneggar/Stallone/Lundgren/etc. action movies is sublime. The only things I found tedious about the game was playing more than one squad at a time and the Deidrianna cutscenes.

...and THEN you find out what you can do with the fan made mods (e.g. increased tactical granularity, bag/kit porn).

 

[Falksi]

Jagged Allience 2 - Could never get into it.

So I'm gonna give it another go. At what point, and roughly how many hours in, does it really click with everyone?

I don't think you have the gaming aptitude and pedigree to play Jagged Alliance 2; it's only for the elite. Maybe stick with your SNES/Genesis write-ups in General Gaming.

Indeed, I am a simple creature. But it seemed pretty straightforward to me. Too straight forward in fact, hence why I lost interest in it.

At what point did it grab you?

 

[undecaf]

All in order, the RPG genre is not weak. It is just overused in marketing and genrehybridization as mentioned before.

 

[luj1]

Which makes it weak

 

[Takamori]

In nowdays its being used as a way to artificially increase playtime for the usual suspects ( see Ass Creed), so they can make a quick buck with xp boosters and power level. But should we call those RPGs when its an obvious marketing ploy to milk retards?
Regarding OP its just a thinly veiled post of My game> Your game.

 

[Eisen]

overused in marketing

Yes

genrehybridization

Hmmm, in cases where there are few RPG elements, yes.

 

[undecaf]

Hmmm, in cases where there are few RPG elements, yes.

In cases of any AAA or mainstream intending game.

 

[mondblut]

All in order, the RPG genre is not weak. It is just overused in marketing and genrehybridization as mentioned before.

RPG genre is white people of computer games.

 

[undecaf]

All in order, the RPG genre is not weak. It is just overused in marketing and genrehybridization as mentioned before.

RPG genre is white people of computer games.

In a sense you are actually right.

And while I'm laughing, it is also tragic.

 

[Luckmann]

Jagged Allience 2 - Could never get into it.

So I'm gonna give it another go. At what point, and roughly how many hours in, does it really click with everyone?

I don't think you have the gaming aptitude and pedigree to play Jagged Alliance 2; it's only for the elite.

That's possibly the dumbest thing you've posted so far. The game is super straightforward and can be finished by practically anyone.

I think you sorely overestimate the modern "gamer".

 

[adddeed]

JA2 had too much micromanagement for my taste. Its too many battles in turn based combat that resolve too slowly while you crawl around and try to take out enemies. Im sure plenty of people enjoy that though i recognize its a great game.

 

[Nostaljaded]

RE: JA2 Strategic AI aka Deidranna's military capabilities/enemy production centers

Enemy has a starting pool of enemies based on difficulty settings to populate the garrisons in important sectors and patrolling groups. 30 new enemies will be drafted/recruited every 'Strategic AI turn' (each turn [with variance added on] is again based on difficulty settings) if the pool is empty.

Enemy composition is upgraded from admins to troops then to elites based on player's highest progress reached, aka progress-scaled to maintain combat challenge. Player's progress factors include current mine income over possible mine income, number of kills (based on difficulty settings) & number of important sectors liberated (like towns & sam sites).

Sir-Tech JA2 Strategic AI design philosophy

STRATEGIC AI -- UNDERLYING PHILOSOPHY
The most fundamental part of the strategic AI which takes from reality and gives to gameplay is the manner
the queen attempts to take her towns back. Finances and owning mines are the most important way
to win the game. As the player takes more mines over, the queen will focus more on quality and defense. In
the beginning of the game, she will focus more on offense than mid-game or end-game.

REALITY
The queen owns the entire country, and the player starts the game with a small lump of cash, enough to hire
some mercenaries for about a week. In that week, the queen may not notice what is going on, and the player
would believably take over one of the towns before she could feasibly react. As soon as her military was
aware of the situation, she would likely proceed to send 300-400 troops to annihilate the opposition, and the
game would be over relatively quickly. If the player was a prodigy, and managed to hold the town against such
a major assault, he would probably lose in the long run being forced into a defensive position and running out
of money quickly while the queen could continue to pump out the troops. On the other hand, if the player
somehow managed to take over most of the mines, he would be able to casually walk over the queen eventually
just from the sheer income allowing him to purchase several of the best mercs. That would have the effect of
making the game impossibly difficult in the beginning of the game, and a joke at the end (this is very much
like Master Of Orion II on the more difficult settings )

GAMEPLAY
Because we want the game to be like a normal game and make it fun, we need to make the game easy in the
beginning and harder at the end. In order to accomplish this, I feel that pure income shouldn't be the factor
for the queen, because she would likely crucify a would-be leader in his early days. So, in the beginning of
the game, the forces would already be situated with the majority of forces being the administrators in the towns,
and army troops and elites in the more important sectors. Restricting the queen's offensive
abilities using a distance penalty would mean that the furthest sectors from the queen's palace would be
much easier to defend because she would only be allowed to send x number of troops. As you get closer to the
queen, she would be allowed to send larger forces to attack those towns in question. Also, to further
increase the games difficulty as the campaign progresses in the player's favor, we could also increase the
quality of the queen's troops based purely on the peek progress percentage. This is calculated using a formula
that determines how well the player is doing by combining loyalty of towns owned, income generated, etc. So,
in the beginning of the game, the quality is at the worst, but once you capture your first mines/towns, it
permanently increase the queen's quality rating, effectively bumping up the stakes. By the time you capture
four or five mines, the queen is going to focus more (but not completely) on quality defense as she prepares
for your final onslaught. This quality rating will augment the experience level, equipment rating, and/or
attribute ratings of the queen's troops. I would maintain a table of these enhancements based on the current
quality rating hooking into the difficulty all along.

End of JA2 Strategic AI
-------------

Jagged Alliance 2 - Could never get into it.

So I'm gonna give it another go. At what point, and roughly how many hours in, does it really click with everyone?

Probably after:
- Getting decent equipment like basic assault rifles & NVGs (night vision goggles), can skip this phase by hiring good mercs
- Seen some of the dialog quips and banter. Take mercs you have never hired before as there's bound to be some personality/voices that's more to your liking.

And when you realize that:
- Tactics are not just about 3 simple/combination approaches of Rush, Camp OR Flank. More about making the best out of the situation, environment AND equipment. Retreat, reorganize and attack again is a viable option. [I weep just by the thought of the current/upcoming gen of modern/futuristic tactics game of simplified/non-existent inventory system, instead of space & weight restrictions.]
- Environment persistence has its consequences. E.g. cutting the fence or blowing a hole during your previous attack makes your current defense more tricky.
- Classless stat-based success/failure roll checks is superior to Shoehorned/Restrictive Classes and Exclusive Skills. Are you crazy to say a sniper cannot pick up an assault rifle on the ground for unintended close-quarters combat? Your squad could knifed and SMGs-silenced in previous night mission, for the next attack the same members could be announcing their arrival with bazookas and mortars.

Nope. I enjoyed the game but my biggest gripe is that nothing really changes as you go along. You get more mercs, more varied gear, enemies get better, there are some special encounters later on but nothing really changes that much. If you got past Drassen, conquered one more city and you still dislike the game then your opinion probably won't change later.

JA2 had too much micromanagement for my taste. Its too many battles in turn based combat that resolve too slowly while you crawl around and try to take out enemies.

Both are very reliable indicators to know whether you will enjoy the game further in after liberating 2 towns.

 

[Ol' Willy]

What I mean is that you don't need to be "elite game" to appreciate it.

Elite gamer? It's like when regular gamer lives in a basement, elite one lives in the attic?

 

[mondblut]

RE: JA2 Strategic AI aka Deidranna's military capabilities/enemy production centers

Enemy composition is upgraded from admins to troops then to elites based on player's highest progress reached, aka progress-scaled to maintain combat challenge. Player's progress factors include current mine income over possible mine income, number of kills (based on difficulty settings) & number of important sectors liberated (like towns & sam sites).

That's my point. Classic quest progression as seen in every RPG or action game: the more the player achieves, the stronger the resistance. In this particular case, taking over Deidranna's supposed "production centers" directly makes her military stronger, which is the opposite of how normal strategy games are supposed to work.

 

[Ontopoly]

To me, an rpg is all about the rule system. If the rule system is at the forefront of the gaming experience then it is an rpg. If it's something that happens in the background for you and the game does its best to hide it from you then it's no rpg. It's just a game with rpg-lite elements or some math hidden in the back somewhere. And if the rule system doesn't have a big impact on my character and how I can shape them, then get it out of there. If it's not embracing the rpg mechanics, then it doesn't matter if it has them, it's no rpg. I want the rule system shoved in my face or I won't accept it as an rpg.

 

[Ontopoly]

That's possibly the dumbest thing you've posted so far. The game is super straightforward and can be finished by practically anyone.

Says the retard who admits to not only needing walkthroughs and Let's Plays, but also plays on Easy mode, with cheats.

Haven't you played games on easy? I've read your entire blog.

 

[jackofshadows]

That's my point. Classic quest progression as seen in every RPG or action game: the more the player achieves, the stronger the resistance. In this particular case, taking over Deidranna's supposed "production centers" directly makes her military stronger, which is the opposite of how normal strategy games are supposed to work.

Suppose to, yes. In theory. In some serious simulator-like games like HoI. But if we take a look at Blizzard strategy games, for example, "Sir-Tech design pilosophy" all over there: at the start of most missions, AI, despite having control over the whole territory, doesn't bother player at all. But the more player achieves (or simply the more time passes) - the stronger the resistance (until a certain point, anyway). It just a casual approach to making an AI, nothing genre-related. I was dissapointed with JA2 to be honest when realized what's going on under the hood in that regard (although the reasons are perfectly explained in the post above).

 

[mondblut]

Suppose to, yes. In theory. In some serious simulator-like games like HoI. But if we take a look at Blizzard strategy games, for example, "Sir-Tech design pilosophy" all over there: at the start of most missions, AI, despite having control over the whole territory, doesn't bother player at all. But the more player achieves (or simply the more time passes) - the stronger the resistance (until a certain point, anyway). It just a casual approach to making an AI, nothing genre-related.

What I was pointing out is that the player doesn't truly occupy "production centers" of the enemy and any comparisons to capturing enemy castles in HoMM are absolutely baseless.

 

[jackofshadows]

What I was pointing out is that the player doesn't truly occupy "production centers" of the enemy and any comparisons to capturing enemy castles in HoMM are absolutely baseless.

Are they? Militia is a no joke and takes a vital place in a path to victory. I'd say it's comparable to capturing castles with ~undeveloped creature production buildings. Not to mention that in JA2 player is able to accumulate way, way beyond our usual RPG-expenses amounts of resources, all thanks to these very "production centers".

 

[Clockwork Knight]

To me, an rpg is all about the rule system. If the rule system is at the forefront of the gaming experience then it is an rpg. If it's something that happens in the background for you and the game does its best to hide it from you then it's no rpg. It's just a game with rpg-lite elements or some math hidden in the back somewhere. And if the rule system doesn't have a big impact on my character and how I can shape them, then get it out of there. If it's not embracing the rpg mechanics, then it doesn't matter if it has them, it's no rpg. I want the rule system shoved in my face or I won't accept it as an rpg.

Hmm...what if the rules exist and are important but are deliberately kept out of sight or given vague descriptions (the game wants the player to experiment, to create tension, mystery, etc)

 

[mondblut]

What I was pointing out is that the player doesn't truly occupy "production centers" of the enemy and any comparisons to capturing enemy castles in HoMM are absolutely baseless.

Are they? Militia is a no joke and takes a vital place in a path to victory. I'd say it's comparable to capturing castles with ~undeveloped creature production buildings. Not to mention that in JA2 player is able to accumulate way, way beyond our usual RPG-expenses amounts of resources, all thanks to these very "production centers".

But they are not "production centers", duh. Capturing them does not deprieve enemy of resources and opportunities to hire more troops.

 

[jackofshadows]

What I was pointing out is that the player doesn't truly occupy "production centers" of the enemy and any comparisons to capturing enemy castles in HoMM are absolutely baseless.

Are they? Militia is a no joke and takes a vital place in a path to victory. I'd say it's comparable to capturing castles with ~undeveloped creature production buildings. Not to mention that in JA2 player is able to accumulate way, way beyond our usual RPG-expenses amounts of resources, all thanks to these very "production centers".

But they are not "production centers", duh. Capturing them does not deprieve enemy of resources and opportunities to hire more troops.

If you're still on assumtion that strategy games should always be played with an AI by the same rules, let me remind you that it's not always the case. For example, in Civ V there's massive bonuses for the AI on highest difficulty, units out of thin air included (basically of the same "resistance stronger than it should be"). The best solution which they came up with to provide a challenge for an experienced player, what can you do. It's a matter of conditionality, not some genre-defining feature. Same's here. Yes, capturing settlements doesn't deprieve enemy of resources yet it provide player with them and decision about how to dispose of it lies strickly in a strategic plane.

 

[Farewell into the night]

I am invisible

Lilura, what would be the top 10 all-time GAMES list? I need to make sure I finish all of those games.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

I am invisible

Lilura, what would be the top 10 all-time GAMES list? I need to make sure I finish all of those games.

I'm actually perfectly visible