Wasteland The Wasteland 2 Beta Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[hiver]

@ perkel, dosbuster,.. :scans those replies - shakes head sadly: :facepalms:

The "lets just repeat incoherent schtick that was dealt with posts ago in hope that just repeating it more times will make it work:
You EEER infected monkeys... it so fucking sad watching you in your little cages... really.
(in between moments when you just want to burn the whole abomination down and be done with it)

Well, not to harp on you anymore, - i guess we will see, wont we?

This is the pretty much approach I'm taking, although I'm aware some issues can't be fixed, like the non-open world. I find the limitation of only being able to visit the 'plot-unlocked' locations really annoying. I would prefer the world to be completely open for exploration (like in the original Wasteland), or at least the locked locations limited only to a few crucial ones (like in the first Baldur's Gate).

Playing this last version, i was actually starting to think they should really end with all these pretenses and just make the game linear, completely, with that one forced binary extreme choice, as it is.

It would immediately improve the game overall internal structure, and logic. By miles. Especially if random encounters were actually made into not random.
And it would correct large parts of players slanted perspective and expectations too.

A win-win situation. Completely.

 

[Infinitron]

Well, not to harp on you anymore, - i guess we will see, wont we?

This is the pretty much approach I'm taking, although I'm aware some issues can't be fixed, like the non-open world. I find the limitation of only being able to visit the 'plot-unlocked' locations really annoying. I would prefer the world to be completely open for exploration (like in the original Wasteland), or at least the locked locations limited only to a few crucial ones (like in the first Baldur's Gate).

sea addressed this earlier ITT:

Everyone saw your review, hiver. It was... rather hard to miss.

In any case:

• Balance and mechanics can and will be fine-tuned right up to release. A huge number of complaints relate to balance in combat, of attributes and skills, of loot drops, the in-game economy, etc. but with content still in a state of flux this is some of the last stuff worth locking down and spending time on if it just needs to get changed again later.
• Likewise, individual quests and things like companion reactivity in the game world are still being tweaked.
  
• The game is going to be more open-ended and less gated than the beta indicates at this time, and you may see changes to that effect going forward.
• There are going to be more hub-style locations, which have more significant non-combat and exploration elements. However, the game is still going to be more objective- and combat-oriented than Fallout (it is what it is, as Infinitron mentioned that's just how much of the game has been built).
• There is significant reactivity that manifests towards the mid and late game, which is hard to get a sense for now. Remember, even with the Prison area, the beta is only about 25-30% of the game. Again, spoilers, can't talk about it, etc.
• I agree about the mine area having room for improvement, and submitted my thoughts on that a couple weeks ago already (though remember it's still ultimately a small side quest, so don't expect a massive sprawling dungeon). Can't say what's being done as it's a lower priority compared to other tasks right now.

It also goes without saying that all the information above is subject to change, and that I do not know the specifics related to all those topics (plus if I started blabbing too much, Brother None would have to send Lithuanian hitmen after me).

 

[Arkeus]

My own problem with the balance change being last is that they won't get the advantages of the beta testers being able to play the game how it is meant to be played, so all balance-change will be made in a vacuum.

 

[Cholo]

Brother None sea Is it too late to include an easter egg item in LA? If not, could you include Cleve's custom .203 rifle from the LA Riots? You could put it on a suburban rooftop if they're accessible to the player, or under a weathered party umbrella.

I know it's early 90s and not 80s themed, and it's kind of circle jerky codex shit, but if it helps- the best turn based tactics game ever: Jagged Alliance 2 even had a Cleve shoutout! (albeit an unkind one)

 

[hiver]

My own problem with the balance change being last is that they won't get the advantages of the beta testers being able to play the game how it is meant to be played, so all balance-change will be made in a vacuum.

Let me break it down for all of you... You are playing it as it is intended. The exact same way it is meant to be played. Right now.
Balances - do not mean crucial design changes turning this into some other kind of RPG, or another game. It only means that what is there will be slightly adjusted and - pa-dum-pshhh... - balanced.

My point is InXile wasn't RPG developer and i bet ton of people from that studio probably didn't even play any RPG before that, i sure people there are learning stuff and as they will release mediacore to good game they will have chance to improve and polish their skill for Torment and next games.

Just to recall:

For Wasteland 2, we’re getting the band back together again!. Brian Fargo who Executive Produced both Wasteland and Fallout will be heading the team. Alan Pavlish and Mike Stackpole—the original game’s primary designers—are coming back to put the project together, and we’re rounding up as many of the other designers, like Ken St. Andre, as we can. On top of that, we’ll have music by Mark Morgan of Fallout 1 and 2 fame. The storyline for Wasteland 2 was written by Jason Anderson who was the co-creator of Fallout. We have also enlisted the help of the amazing concept artist, Andree Wallin to help craft the Wasteland 2 world.

Obsidian’s Chief Creative Officer, Chris Avellone, is going to work with our team on the design and writing of the game!

While the programming work will remain with us here at inXile, we are looking to use a host of tools that Obsidian has created which will help us get assets into the game faster.

This isn't a bunch of amateurs making their first game; or at least, it shouldn't be. And they definitely don't have a amateur budget.

Wasteland 2 Project Lead : Chris Keenan?
Who the hell is chris keenan you might ask? Where is Stackpole, Pavlish, Jason Anderson...anyone?

http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,16071/

the great and lustrous career of a former QA tester.


The Bard's Tale
Jun 21, 2005
Scriptor: Chris Keenan, Christopher French, Sidney Brown

Line Rider 2: Unbound
Sep 17, 2008
Producer: Chris Keenan

Hunted: The Demon's Forge
May 30, 2011http://www.mobygames.com/game/hunted-the-demons-forge
Design Director: Chris Keenan


- compared, TToN is already light years ahead.

 

[Whiran]

My issue with saying "balance comes last" is that it means that balance isn't an active design goal.

In my view, if a game is trying for balance then balance should come first. Balance should be part of the overall design so that things -can- be balanced. If balance is an after thought then a game will never be balanced.

Now, does "balance" need to exist in a single player game in the first place? I am of two minds on that one. I tend to prefer balanced games where every character type is viable and combat is a challenge but, then again, there is something to be said for steam-rolling the opponent.

Still, for Wasteland 2, seeing so many official posts claim that balance comes later reveals that in Wasteland 2 balance isn't a design goal. That means that the game will never ever be balanced. Because of that I find it odd that devs talk about balance at all. Why bother? That's not part of the goal in this game. To me, in a game that is super combat heavy and squad level turn-based balance probably should have been a design goal. But it isn't. So, whatever, Wasteland 2 will be Wasteland 2.

 

[Emily]

But what is the point of all choices and consequences if the game isnt balanced and you can always just steam roll?
I just dont understand the point of playing then, might as well just play CYOA then.

 

[Gord]

Well, looking e.g. at the Divinity or Dragon Commander alphas, the focus initially seems to be on engine, world building, content, features.
Only when that stuff is there, balance seems to come into focus. It probably makes sense, too. How will you balance your game when you can't even fully say what you are going to use and encounter in the game? This doesn't mean that "balance isn't a design goal".
It just means that balancing will be done once you can be reasonably sure that key features of your game aren't going to change/dissappear/get added anymore.
At this point balancing can be done relatively fast, too. Larian experimented quite a lot with balancing very late into their open beta.

 

[hiver]

I dont mind that they will balance things later or think thats something bad in on itself. It is the natural progression of game development - its just that most of us never see these parts of it and we usually get the "finished" final version.

Its just that some "people" took it to mean the game will change into something it is not. And will not be.

 

[MicoSelva]

Can someone link me to the (in)famous hiver review, because I am too lazy to search for it by myself?

 

[Lhynn]

My issue with saying "balance comes last" is that it means that balance isn't an active design goal.

In my view, if a game is trying for balance then balance should come first. Balance should be part of the overall design so that things -can- be balanced. If balance is an after thought then a game will never be balanced.

Now, does "balance" need to exist in a single player game in the first place? I am of two minds on that one. I tend to prefer balanced games where every character type is viable and combat is a challenge but, then again, there is something to be said for steam-rolling the opponent.

Still, for Wasteland 2, seeing so many official posts claim that balance comes later reveals that in Wasteland 2 balance isn't a design goal. That means that the game will never ever be balanced. Because of that I find it odd that devs talk about balance at all. Why bother? That's not part of the goal in this game. To me, in a game that is super combat heavy and squad level turn-based balance probably should have been a design goal. But it isn't. So, whatever, Wasteland 2 will be Wasteland 2.

But then youd have to rebalance everything every time you add or take away something, so even if it was the main goal, itd be a pretty retarded and time wasting thing to do.

 

[hiver]

Just turn to page 154 right in this thread, MicoSelva

ive just added a short edit and included the bit about Prison area.
Ive previously edited it to include Bn revelations at the end. Which will probably look a bit harsh for resident delicate flowers and nancies.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ead-early-access-now-available.88397/page-154

 

[Decado]

But then youd have to rebalance everything every time you add or take away something, so even if it was the main goal, itd be a pretty retarded and time wasting thing to do.

This is exactly why balance comes last.

 

[Infinitron]

I think Whiran is confusing the "balance" of adjusting and fine-tuning numbers with some deeper (Sawyer-esque?) notion of game balance.

 

[WhiteGuts]

This thread has gone full

Roguey, in his/her/its cave is very proud.

 

[felipepepe]

I think Whiran is confusing the "balance" of adjusting and fine-tuning numbers with some deeper (Sawyer-esque?) notion of game balance.

^This. Not to mention that balance on single-player games is overrated.

 

[Lhynn]

I think Whiran is confusing the "balance" of adjusting and fine-tuning numbers with some deeper (Sawyer-esque?) notion of game balance.

^This. Not to mention that balance on single-player games is retarded.

I agree.

 

[Perkel]

^ god damn yes.

Fighter/mage in BG1 was overpowered at start if you use blind spell it wasn't godlike mode but it was fun as fuck to blind people and then hack/shoot them to death (especially those higher level/better equiped bounty hunters from taverns).

 

[hiver]

I think Whiran is confusing the "balance" of adjusting and fine-tuning numbers with some deeper (Sawyer-esque?) notion of game balance.

^This. Not to mention that balance on single-player games is overrated.

I wasnt referring to him when i mentioned some "people", anyway. Gas bags... organic waste... bipedal... something or other. - i have more interesting things to think about anyway.

just to be clear.

 

[Drakron]

No.

Balance is very much armchair developers being retarded, balance matters on competition to give every participant the same tools but there will never perfect balance.

In a single player game without multiplayer there is no need for "balance", there is the need to utility were nothing should be so underpowered or overpowerful that overrides all other choices, there might be so balanded inbalance as some item is clearly better but requires either heavier skill investment or its offset by higher penalties (example: less avaible ammo) but ultimate there will never be perfect balance, something will always be better that something else on a particular situation otherwise they are simply the exact same tool.

Balance matters in PvP multiplayer but eventually that degenerates into cookie-cutter builds with any attempt to shake it being meet with resistance.

In short, unless this is a PvP multiplayer game balance is retarded, utility comes first ... and before someone goes about enemies I like to point out balance, utility and difficulty are not the same thing.

 

[Decado]

I think Whiran is confusing the "balance" of adjusting and fine-tuning numbers with some deeper (Sawyer-esque?) notion of game balance.

^This. Not to mention that balance on single-player games is overrated.

I agree. In some aspect, the existence of all those "The Greatest!" games we have been pining for -- and the games that Sawyer et al. have been trying to recreate -- is the perfect proof that balance is overrated. I liked playing through BGII with my shape-shifting druid and having a murder machine in the beginning of the game, who eventually leveled out and wasn't so great with his claws. Likewise, I enjoyed playing my squishy as fuck Swash until his AC and Thac0 got into acceptable levels, and eventually he turned into a human lawnmower. And I liked playing my straight-up Cleric who never really excelled at anything and required constant babysitting and a shitload of party support to survive.

As I look back at all of the games I really like (BGII, Morrowind, PST, etc) they were all fundamentally "unbalanced" WRT to there being some way to roll a shitty character and being left to struggle through the game. That never bothered me at all. I liked it. I'd much rather have a bevy of choices that promise both real struggle and a facerolling good time, as opposed to hitting some "sweet spot" where every character will have the same easy time of it.

But I also realize I am not going to get that, not anymore. So in its absence I will accept differences in the difficulty curve that are destined to level out -- e.g., a thief character who is weak in the beginning but will eventual shine, or a fighter who will always be tough but never standout in the endgame, etc.

 

[Infinitron]

Man BG2 is one thing but even grognards think the balance in Morrowind and other Bethesda games was pretty shitty

 

[tuluse]

Content is more important than systems, but the classics would be better with better systems.

 

[felipepepe]

I'll blame the internet partially for the hate of "unbalanced" games. I spent years playing Baldur's Gate until figured out what was OP, what was weak, what was broken.... and had loads of fun with it.

Now Dark Souls II is out for like 2 weeks, and people are already crying about how X is completely broken, Y is unbalanced, Z needs a nerf, sharing optimal min-max builds and all that. Someone that haven't even played the game yet will look and think "K', I'll never use the broadsword because it does 5% less damage than the viking one - they should fix this, is horrible!!11!".

Nowadays, there would be hordes of loud gamers demanding the nerf of Cane of Corpus a week after release. And Josh Sawyer telling us it was never fun to begin with.

 

[Gord]

What I find highly annoying are the hordes of minmaxers declaring an imba build to be the only way of playing the game (see e.g. Hammerblow in Blackguards for a recent example) and the retards who use every exploit known to mankind and then complain that the game is broken because of them.