Game News THQ Nordic want to remake Gothic, playable teaser released to owners of previous Piranha Bytes games

[Smejki]

I dunno maybe that the shit is strangely underdeveloped.
But I sure find it funny that you all lose your shit over a minor gripe about this particular topic.

There were no bespectacled Fat Neckbeards either, you don't see me complain.

nice fallacy

 

[thesecret1]

The disproportion of women in population (about 20:1) of Gothic 2 and 3 is laughable.

Now it's been a while since I last played G2 but I'm fairly sure there are loads of women in Khorinis and the surrounding farms. It's certainly not 20:1, unless you're counting the orcs too.

Well, the ratio is off but still justifiable. After all a bunch of men escaped the colony not too long ago.
But even with that considered, there are about 10-15 women in Khorinis (some 3-5 traders, 2-3 brothel whores, the thief guild leader, the cook in shanty town, some upper town no-names) and some 3-6 more on the farms.
Men? My bet is on over a hundred. That's a genetic cesspool. Although G2 is better than G1 in this regard it still hurts (not ruins) the immersion for me.
Gothic 3 is the worst in this regard. There are like 3 women in the entire Nordmar. I wish I was kidding. Not to mention the abysmal quests with various dancers in Varant where some 15 dancers are the only female population.
I played Gothic 3 back in September so this is fresh in my memory.

Holy shit, what are you, some EU bureaucrat enforcing gender quotas in video games? But alright, for the sake of the argument, let's break down G2 in regards to gender:
-first off, colony escapees do not count as they have been imported from all around to do hard labour and are thus all male. They do not reflect the population of Khorinis any more than a prison reflects the population of a nearby town. This thus eliminates both the mercs at the farm, water mages, some fire mages, as well the various bandits you fight, as they've all been stated to have come from the Colony (and provide an in-game explanation for why are there so many robbers all of a sudden).
-second, none of the Paladins count. They are all male as they are part of the military/religious order (and only men are allowed to join that in Gothic) and they, again, all come from the mainland, as is stated numerous times throughout the game. Again, they do not reflect the population of Khorinis
-third, none of the pirates count for pretty much the same reasons. No, women can't join the pirates, since women bring bad luck at sea as any sailor knows
-four, the monastery does not count either for obvious reasons
So, what are we left with? Khorinis and the farms, without the aforementioned groups. In Khorinis, the ratio isn't so bad at all – there's quite a few women, nearly as many as male NPCs. I suppose it's not a 50:50 split, but then again, you don't get an exact split in real life either. Perhaps one or two more women would make Khorinis meet EU gender quotas, but I do not see this imbalance to be severe enough to ruin muh immershun. Second thing we are left with are the various farms. Usually, you find the farm's owner and his wife, plus some farmhands (which are male). Onar's farm is the biggest and thus has more staff than the others. If memory serves, aside from the wife, you can also find his daughter and a female cook there, as far as females go. Obviously, the source of toxic masculinity in this rural utopia are the farmhands, which are all male. But wait! It has been shown that some of the farmhands are actually also poor sods from the colony! That's even more males we can omit from the equation for reasons stated above. Still, it is true that a number of farmhands is native to Khorinis, and thus we aren't going to meet an exact 50:50 quota this time either. What a shame.
In the end, we have something like 60:40 male:female ratio. Not good enough for a resetera user, but I dare say quite good enough for anyone sane.

 

[Lord of Riva]

I dunno maybe that the shit is strangely underdeveloped.
But I sure find it funny that you all lose your shit over a minor gripe about this particular topic.

Yeah a minor gripe here, a minor gripe there and after that go to prison don't move over "go" and don't get your salary.

We are seeing all around where these "minor" gripes lead.

There are a lot of "minor" or "major" gripes to be had in this game, like the combat or the fetch quests or the quite atrocious VA (as far as I can tell as a non-native english speaker) but the easily explained and lore friendly lack of females in a penal colony, thats something we should mention, very important.

EDIT: This whole debate about quotas regarding the sexes (nope, not saying gender on purpose) is completely pointless regardless of the medium we are talking about.

If you need to play yourself for immersion maybe you should play something that's not a role playing game

 

[Smejki]

Yeah, me wishing one video game world to be a bit more fleshed out and mature will lead to you losing your job
Nobody demanded quotas. Just please get a treatment for your allergies to thinking about them wahmen.

 

[Lord of Riva]

Yeah, me wishing one video game world to be a bit more fleshed out and mature will lead to you losing your job
Nobody demanded quotas. Just please get a treatment for your allergies to thinking about them wahmen.

The World is really fleshed out, it's the strongest point of the game. Just because you want to see it as problematic, due to your inability of immersing yourself into someone who does not share a hole or sausage, doesn't mean it is.

You also missed my "Monopoly" reference, I really tried to make it easy this time around.

Don't worry, me and the Women get on fine, the issue is that, just like most people, I'm allergic to cancer.

 

[thesecret1]

me wishing one video game world to be a bit more fleshed out and mature

So adding a couple more female NPCs will make the game more fleshed out and mature? Are you for real? And what the hell sort of metric is "mature"? How do you measure it? And does a game being more mature mean it is better, or are you just throwing buzzwords around? Strange, in all the discussions about RPGs on this site, I haven't seen anyone go "You know what this game needs? More maturity. If they threw in 5 more generic female NPCs, this game would be significantly better"

 

[Metro]

The teaser left a lot to be desired, but my white-knighting here is kind of funny.

Fixed.

 

[Van-d-all]

Finished modded G1&2 again just few months ago, so I couldn't care less about the game itself, since the originals can be decently modernized already, but I am curious what the reception will be - will old players kill the project before it hatches because of inevitable decline, or as usual the influx of new players will actually make it happen given their sheer number?

 

[Lord of Riva]

Finished modded G1&2 again just few months ago, so I couldn't care less about the game itself, since the originals can be decently modernized already, but I am curious what the reception will be - will old players kill the project before it hatches because of inevitable decline, or as usual the influx of new players will actually make it happen given their sheer number?

The "Teaser" can only be accessed by people owning Products by PB so there are at least only somewhat invested people there.

That said, it seems like those who do think it's shit seem to be in the minority as the reviews are closing towards 80% positive ratings. Seems like we are loosing another one.

 

[Ismaul]

The problem is that "true fans" of PB likely have the game on disc rather than on Steam. I also have it on GOG for convenience, but not on Steam too. How many times does one have to buy the game?

So the Steam feedback might not be representative.

 

[Lord of Riva]

The problem is that "true fans" of PB likely have the game on disc rather than on Steam. I also have it on GOG for convenience, but not on Steam too. How many times does one have to buy the game?

So the Steam feedback might not be representative.

True, but at the same time they are not looking for people liking Gothic, they look for an audience for their shitty Product.

They probably had the data on how many people would receive the demo and thought that the quantity was sufficient. Read: They found their Audience outside of those "true fans"

 

[passerby]

The problem is that "true fans" of PB likely have the game on disc rather than on Steam. I also have it on GOG for convenience, but not on Steam too. How many times does one have to buy the game?

So the Steam feedback might not be representative.

It's enough to have any Piranha Bytes game on Steam to get it, not only G1.

 

[Diggfinger]

Props on the total-time-played. counter though.
TBH ALL F-ing RPGs should have that as a mandatory components (should be right up there with rats).
I love knowing how many hours a (good) game has sucked from my life-time on this wonderful earth.

 

[Dexter]

The Gothic Universe Edition containing Gothic 1+2+3 is 3€ on Steam: https://store.steampowered.com/sub/6375/

I up-boated it albeit with a lot of criticism because I think it might be easier for them to justify Greenlighting their game if they show that over ~3000 people player the Prototype and there's a generally positive reaction and didn't exactly see it as a total abomination. I don't really lose anything if they make the game and can still play the Original Gothic, but there's the chance that they'll actually listen to Feedback and actually make a somewhat competent Gothic Reboot. If not, then eh. At least they went to the effort of making a Prototype and putting it out there to be looked at and taken apart, the next attempt might be by a completely different studio with everyone being presented with a fait accompli.

 

[Lord of Riva]

The Gothic Universe Edition containing Gothic 1+2+3 is 3€ on Steam: https://store.steampowered.com/sub/6375/

I up-boated it albeit with a lot of criticism because I think it might be easier for them to justify Greenlighting their game if they show that over ~3000 people player the Prototype and there's a generally positive reaction and didn't exactly see it as a total abomination. I don't really lose anything if they make the game and can still play the Original Gothic, but there's the chance that they'll actually listen to Feedback and actually make a somewhat competent Gothic Reboot. If not, then eh.

You will loose getting an actually decent remake, it's bad therefore it should not be greenlit.

I really like the idea of a Remake but I would rather have none if it's shit. People don't realise that once they have gone that route it's over, Gothic will always have this as it's remake.

 

[Smejki]

Finished modded G1&2 again just few months ago, so I couldn't care less about the game itself, since the originals can be decently modernized already, but I am curious what the reception will be - will old players kill the project before it hatches because of inevitable decline, or as usual the influx of new players will actually make it happen given their sheer number?

My prediction: Critically large part of the desperately malnourished fandom will accept anything if it has the right name on it and if it resembles the original on the most superficial levels. It will be too late for course correction when the new installment arrives and takes hold. As a result eternal clashes within the fandom will ensue.
It happened to Fallout, Star Wars, it might happ...

Oh no...

 

[Smejki]

The Gothic Universe Edition containing Gothic 1+2+3 is 3€ on Steam: https://store.steampowered.com/sub/6375/

I up-boated it albeit with a lot of criticism because I think it might be easier for them to justify Greenlighting their game if they show that over ~3000 people player the Prototype and there's a generally positive reaction and didn't exactly see it as a total abomination. I don't really lose anything if they make the game and can still play the Original Gothic, but there's the chance that they'll actually listen to Feedback and actually make a somewhat competent Gothic Reboot. If not, then eh. At least they went to the effort of making a Prototype and putting it out there to be looked at and taken apart, the next attempt might be by a completely different studio with everyone being presented with a fait accompli.

 

[Lord of Riva]

So you would agree that based on this the review score if basically not grounded in any rationale? Great basis to make a game on and a great basis to say that the community approves of it.

*sigh*

 

[Van-d-all]

Finished modded G1&2 again just few months ago, so I couldn't care less about the game itself, since the originals can be decently modernized already, but I am curious what the reception will be - will old players kill the project before it hatches because of inevitable decline, or as usual the influx of new players will actually make it happen given their sheer number?

My prediction: Critically large part of the desperately malnourished fandom will accept anything if it has the right name on it and if it resembles the original on the most superficial levels. It will be too late for course correction when the new installment arrives and takes hold. As a result eternal clashes within the fandom will ensue.
It happened to Fallout, Star Wars, it might happ...

Oh no...

Yup, it will probably end up as the Fallout 3 of Gothics. Also, the one with most copies sold.

 

[Smejki]

Finished modded G1&2 again just few months ago, so I couldn't care less about the game itself, since the originals can be decently modernized already, but I am curious what the reception will be - will old players kill the project before it hatches because of inevitable decline, or as usual the influx of new players will actually make it happen given their sheer number?

My prediction: Critically large part of the desperately malnourished fandom will accept anything if it has the right name on it and if it resembles the original on the most superficial levels. It will be too late for course correction when the new installment arrives and takes hold. As a result eternal clashes within the fandom will ensue.
It happened to Fallout, Star Wars, it might happ...

Oh no...

Yup, it will probably end up as the Fallout 3 of Gothics. Also, the one with most copies sold.

Not necessarily. I'm afraid it will actually flop. Reasons:
It tries so hard to be a Wicther 3 but apparently it doesn't have the funding nor the talent (at least for now) to pull that off. There are not many original aspects to it. Fallout 3, no matter if you like it or not, was something fresh.
The fact that it follows Wicther 3 design formula means that they have to completely redesign the entire game except the plot and level layout.
Wicther 3-style game is extremely time consuming to produce as every single dialog scene must be manually set up. And you can see they did that for every single one in this short remake.
As a result this will take an enormous amount of time and money as opposed to pure remake with occasional pimp-ups. Taking a proven game and redesigning every single aspect of it actually takes more time than starting with a blank slate. Gothic is not a small game in terms of content. This will be expensive to make.
The stated release date of December 2021 is imho impossible. Unless they have a head start and already made half of the game which, again, would mean the course correction possibilities are extremely limited.

 

[cvv]

As a result this will take an enormous amount of time and money as opposed to pure remake with occasional pimp-ups.

What do you mean by "pure remake"? The only kind of revisit that wouldn't take mountains of manpower and money is a lazy Dark Souls-style remaster with only a scaled up graphics and a few postprocessing trinkets. But such a thing would be pointless and nobody is asking for it.

Recreating the game in a new engine, with new assets and systems, will always take a huge effort. It almost doesn't matter if they make the game closer to Witcher or the OG Gothic.

Agreed on the lack of talent tho. If this demo is the best proof of concept they could come up with it's not a good sign. How big this "THQ Barcelona" even is? Can anyone check the credits?

 

[jaydee2k]

What the actual fuck. Nothing is sacred these days anymore.

 

[Van-d-all]

Finished modded G1&2 again just few months ago, so I couldn't care less about the game itself, since the originals can be decently modernized already, but I am curious what the reception will be - will old players kill the project before it hatches because of inevitable decline, or as usual the influx of new players will actually make it happen given their sheer number?

My prediction: Critically large part of the desperately malnourished fandom will accept anything if it has the right name on it and if it resembles the original on the most superficial levels. It will be too late for course correction when the new installment arrives and takes hold. As a result eternal clashes within the fandom will ensue.
It happened to Fallout, Star Wars, it might happ...

Oh no...

Yup, it will probably end up as the Fallout 3 of Gothics. Also, the one with most copies sold.

Not necessarily. I'm afraid it will actually flop. Reasons:
It tries so hard to be a Wicther 3 but apparently it doesn't have the funding nor the talent (at least for now) to pull that off. There are not many original aspects to it. Fallout 3, no matter if you like it or not, was something fresh.
The fact that it follows Wicther 3 design formula means that they have to completely redesign the entire game except the plot and level layout.
Wicther 3-style game is extremely time consuming to produce as every single dialog scene must be manually set up. And you can see they did that for every single one in this short remake.
As a result this will take an enormous amount of time and money as opposed to pure remake with occasional pimp-ups. Taking a proven game and redesigning every single aspect of it actually takes more time than starting with a blank slate. Gothic is not a small game in terms of content. This will be expensive to make.
The stated release date of December 2021 is imho impossible. Unless they have a head start and already made half of the game which, again, would mean the course correction possibilities are extremely limited.

Well, it's not like you're wrong... After Assassin's Creed, Witcher 3 kind of design became the holy grail of "RPG with AAA characteristics". It's just that I meant F3 here as a major change of formula and rape of the original idea, not as specific design choices.

 

[Smejki]

As a result this will take an enormous amount of time and money as opposed to pure remake with occasional pimp-ups.

What do you mean by "pure remake"? The only kind of revisit that wouldn't take mountains of manpower and money is a lazy Dark Souls-style remaster with only a scaled up graphics and a few postprocessing trinkets. But such a thing would be pointless and nobody is asking for it.

Recreating the game in a new engine, with new assets and systems, will always take a huge effort. It almost doesn't matter if they make the game closer to Witcher or the OG Gothic.

Agreed on the lack of talent tho. If this demo is the best proof of concept they could come up with it's not a good sign. How big this "THQ Barcelona" even is? Can anyone check the credits?

Pure remake in this context means "don't change the foundational design principles all the content stands on". Remaking a game this way is cheaper because you already have a holistic design that's already proven to work. Any change to system design might send a ripple effect throughout the rest of the game.

This definition provides a lot of wiggle room, so yes, you are correct there are different kinds of remakes which would fall under this category. From HD texture packs or direct engine ports on the cheaper end of the spectrum to complete re-work in the the vein of Black Mesa, ResEvil2 (I'm not actually sure about this one, I haven't played any RE game), latest AoE2 remake, or Modern Warfare remake, on the the more expensive end.

Sure, they will have to do a lot of work regardless. They have a completely different engine and have to rebuild the game in it. In this case they need to program in (at least) a new dialog system (setup tech, cameras, dialog processing, face animations...), quest system, UI, inventory management, daycycle simulation tech, animal AI. And they have to remodel, retexture an reanimate everything as no assets hold up to today's standards.

That's tons of work. But! Imagine they decide to introduce inventory weight limit. That's a tiny change, right? Technically yes, but the consequences are immense. The entire game will change in flow. Loot and rewards will have to change. The entire economy will have to be reinvented and rebalanced.
By far the worst culprit in my eyes is the dialog system they've chosen to create for the remake. It requires:
a) NPCs to stand in place rigidly
b) Manual setup of in-dialog positions, animations, and cameras and
c) extra attention to every spot where the dialogs will happen. Because they are actually mini theater stages and they have to follow the requirements made by a), b). One poorly placed barrel and Diego will go through it during his fancy dialog animation #8. If the table he repeatedly sits on isn't placed at the right place, the whole thing falls apart.

Not only does it require a lot of work on its own, it also goes completely counter to most of content designed in the original Gothic 1 and all of it will have to be re-thinked (re-thought? that sounds weird to me), re-implemented and the new version must be re-proven to work.
That's the extra-extra work I'm talking about.

With that said, I sure as hell wouldn't want just a simple remodel and retexture of Gothic 1.
As I implied in the review I would advise them to:
- remodel the world without changing the layout. Maybe change distances and scales (bigger forests for example). Maybe expand it a bit.
- remodel and re-animate every asset
- keep the visual design of enemies and how it informs you about their threat level. You don't want to watch health bar sizes or even lazy-ass Witcher-like level numbers in a Gothic game.
- keep the principles of daily routines of NPCs and animals
- keep the warning behaviors of the animals
- keep the basic principles of the dialog system
- keep the basic principles of "crime system" and trespass behaviors
- keep the atmosphere (this means keep the color palette, music, progression beats, story beats, themes, and writing or be very fucking good at imitating it)
- change the combat system but keep its out-states (mainly that friendly enemies don't die immediately after defeat - they are merely knocked out.)
- keep the progressively changing combat styles
- keep the difficulty curve and retain how it informs the capabilities and possibilities of your character in the game world (you can't be able to kill a well-armed man in the starting location ffs! That's not Gothic, that's Skyrim.)
- curb player's ability to go anywhere by retaining the high-danger-zone design and use it approprietly
- maybe rethink the progression/RPG system but don't introduce endless sources of XP (like respawning animals). Retain the inability to master everything
- rework the inventory and journal
- maybe rework how magic works
- re-create music and sounds
- add some quests and NPCs if you wish
- flesh-out the world a bit more if you wish
This list could go on for a while but I guess you catch my drift

I also don't think it's financially viable to take the Gothic 1 setting and plot and have it "grafted" onto a cheap Witcher3 knock-off. Old fans will probably hate it and it probably won't attract any significant newcomers. Why?
a) They have better games to satiate their needs (Witcher, Cyberpunk)
b) Gothic is, let's face it, a very generic fantasy setting with unremarkable plot. The strength is in the game concept and numerous minor moments which you can't easily sell in a trailer.
In other words the game will not stand out.

Now if they were making a sequel that would be a different situation. There's a great difference between retaining content and design rules of an exiting game, and thinking "what are the core and distinct values of the franchise? let's create something new." I would still bitch about some aspects but I would be way more lenient to accept changes. That's why I have no problems with the massive changes between Witcher 1, 2 and 3, but I would roll my eyes so hard I'd sever my optic nerves if they tried to remake Witcher 1 using Witcher 3 formula.

 

[cvv]

That's tons of work. But! Imagine they decide to introduce inventory weight limit. That's a tiny change, right? Technically yes, but the consequences are immense.
By far the worst culprit in my eyes is the dialog system they've chosen to create for the remake.

Oh yea, those kind of system changes would be pure self-indulgent cancer. Nevertheless, it seems they're determined to recreate the game in a new engine and that means completely recreating the combat too. That's a huge system change that's inevitable and watching the demo I was NOT convinced they have enough experience or talent to pull this off.