Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

[Luckmann]

I haven't played much of the game yet, but the most perplexing thing I'd encountered in this game was that "Welcome to our strange and alien theme park, traveller" attitude the writers apparently employed in their work. When I came up to the eсhafaud where a man was being executed, I asked a watcher what was going on. And what did he answer? Without hesitation he started describing *what their method of execution was*.
To illustrate: imagine if this was middle ages. You stumbled into an execution square and asked what was going on. Then, instead of telling you who was being executed or why (real people would assume you know what a beheading is), it would unfold like this, numenera-style:
- Hey, berk, what is going on here?
- The man is being hanged by his neck. Hanging by neck is when a person is dragged to the gallows. Then a special rope called 'noose' is used on the poor sod. Then they open the hatch below him, and the man drops down. His neck snaps. Otherwise, he chokes and dies in 5 minutes. What a horrible tragedy.

This is exactly how the people watching the execution in this game described it to me. Absurd? Yes. But not when you are a visitor in a theme park. Is it bad? Not necessarily. But I'd rather make assumptions about the process and fiil in the blanks than read something this inauthentic.
Bonus points for the fact that the different watchers reacted to my question the same way and used similar lexis. At least two or three of them instantly started describing the technical aspect and used the word 'flesh' to describe the meaty, ropey offal that the victim's words turned into.
Seems like a small thing, but it was like a wake up call: "Hey, you naive fuck, this is not a narrative that you're supposed to keep up with to follow, it's the one that drags you along with it, making sure you're not lost, cold, hungry or confused."

It upset me a great deal.

You are not the first to make this exact observation. It's unfortunately symptomatic of much of the writing and the way you're constantly lore-dumped on. I think your comparison to a middle-age gallows execution is perfect, though, because it really illustrates the problem with this style of writing. It doesn't feel natural at all. And stuff like this happens all the time. There will be occasions you walk up to people and they tell you that they're secret explorers please don't tell anyone. Just like that. I'm not even joking.

 

[Lady_Error]

2. You fail to understand that the good parts of TTON don't even dream of touching the good parts of PST and TTON also doesn't have enough good parts to excuse the shitty ones.

Nobody claimed that either.

Yes, you did.

Nobody claimed that "the good parts excuse the shitty parts".

The entire point of this retarded "but PST had shitty x too" is to somehow tell us that TTON is great even if it has shitty things. Well, no, it's not great at all.

Trigger warning: Yes, it's a good game, even in its current vanilla state. The setting is good, graphics are good, the loading times are excellent. Some of the quests and the C&C in them is excellent. However, there are lots of weaknesses too.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I think combat could be greatly sped up if they would ditch the effort mechanics and just do a normal dice roll off the attributes. Having to go through the effort interface for every action makes fights take centuries.

 

[Sigourn]

1. Granted. It never worked well, I always hated it. I hated it in ToEE too.
2. I call bullshit. Yes, the combat wasn't good, and the encounters were shit compared to games like Baldur's Gate II and Icewind Dale, and often the options to even make truly interesting encounters weren't there - but the underlying system was solid. It worked. You didn't want to kill yourself just because there was combat, nor did you ever feel like you had to fight the game just to do something relatively reasonable. It's by far the game's weakest point, but it's not nearly as bad as some would claim.
3. They didn't look good, but that was largely due to the limitations at the time. For when it was done, it didn't look bad. That said, I would've preferred actual 2D art, so fair enough.
4. Torment was infinitely better than Tides of Numenera in this regard. It doesn't really even need to be brought up for Torment - the offenses are few and far between, enough to actually notice when they're around. The same is not true for Tides of Numenera. The content density is so high that you're practically walking a few metres and then have something weird pop up, veiled in purple prose and a thesaurus. This simply isn't true for Torment.

My biggest issue with PS:T's combat, and the reason why I say it was absolute shit, is that I never felt like I was actually in control of what was happening on the screen. Numbers kept popping up without being properly recorded in the interface (like that of Baldur's Gate), fights were generally quickly over, but there were too many of them in my playthrough. It didn't feel good. It wasn't "it's easy so it's shit" levels of bad, it was "what the fuck is going on" levels of bad.

 

[Luckmann]

1. Granted. It never worked well, I always hated it. I hated it in ToEE too.
2. I call bullshit. Yes, the combat wasn't good, and the encounters were shit compared to games like Baldur's Gate II and Icewind Dale, and often the options to even make truly interesting encounters weren't there - but the underlying system was solid. It worked. You didn't want to kill yourself just because there was combat, nor did you ever feel like you had to fight the game just to do something relatively reasonable. It's by far the game's weakest point, but it's not nearly as bad as some would claim.
3. They didn't look good, but that was largely due to the limitations at the time. For when it was done, it didn't look bad. That said, I would've preferred actual 2D art, so fair enough.
4. Torment was infinitely better than Tides of Numenera in this regard. It doesn't really even need to be brought up for Torment - the offenses are few and far between, enough to actually notice when they're around. The same is not true for Tides of Numenera. The content density is so high that you're practically walking a few metres and then have something weird pop up, veiled in purple prose and a thesaurus. This simply isn't true for Torment.

My biggest issue with PS:T's combat, and the reason why I say it was absolute shit, is that I never felt like I was actually in control of what was happening on the screen. Numbers kept popping up without being properly recorded in the interface (like that of Baldur's Gate), fights were generally quickly over, but there were too many of them in my playthrough. It didn't feel good. It wasn't "it's easy so it's shit" levels of bad, it was "what the fuck is going on" levels of bad.

I don't remember that particular issue, really, but I haven't played Torment in years, and it might be my familiarity with the system from other IE games that made me not confused. Or perhaps the fact that I was young enough to not give a shit. I still disagree that the combat was shit, however - it still had a solid underlying system. I wouldn't call it particularly good, either, and it certainly wasn't as good as it could've been based on earlier and latter IE experiences, but I still think the comparison between Torment and Tides of Numenera is unfair.

Yes, Torment combat wasn't stellar, but it worked, it did what it was supposed to do, even if it was relatively uninteresting and a bit slow (I loved the cinematics and the effects, though). In Tides of Numenera, the entire experience is slow, sluggish, and just plain doesn't work very well, and is also plagued by bugs. The issue you describe with Torment is also true in Tides of Numenera, though; there's no way to bring up a combat log that I've seen (nor review old dialogue, which is all kinds of wtf). Combat in Torment wasn't actively detrimental to the experience. In Tides of Numenera, it is; just seeing the Crisis prompt come up makes me audibly sigh.

[...] The setting is good, graphics are good, the loading times are excellent. [...]

Truly, you have the highest standards.

Thing is, I can agree with any of those. It's just that you're a dumbfuck for thinking that it matters enough to judge the game in any meaningful fashion. All those things are tertiery at best. I'll give inXile this, though; I'm fucking amazed by the loading times, seeing as how the guys that actually made the underlying shit couldn't get it to work properly across two games and two expansions.

Let me note it down in the "Pros" section now.

1. Fast loading times.

8/10 pure Incline, stop the presses and call the cops, we've got a runaway studio that's steamrolling the competition, choo choo.

 

[Prime Junta]

Compared to this, PS:T combat was pure tactical real-time-with-pause bliss.

Only reason I'm even continuing to play this is I sort of kind of promised to review this. Also I think I'm about three-quarters done by now. Someone else will have to write the neutral-positive one this time.

 

[made]

So how bad does it suck? Sum up in a few short sentences pls.

 

[Daedalos]

So how bad does it suck? Sum up in a few short sentences pls.

It doesn't.

 

[Gepeu]

It's a good game, but these bullies won't admit it.

 

[Lady_Error]

[...] The setting is good, graphics are good, the loading times are excellent. [...]

Truly, you have the highest standards.

Thing is, I can't agree with any of those. It's just that you're a dumbfuck for thinking that it matters enough to judge the game in any meaningful fashion. All those things are tertiery at best.

Good work, Bad Luckmann. Cut out where I talk about quests and C&C and pretend the above is all I said. Besides, the setting and the graphics are not tertiary by any stretch of imagination. If they were bad, you'd be howling here that something so important was messed up.

 

[Luckmann]

So how bad does it suck? Sum up in a few short sentences pls.

Like a black hole in a transdimensional ultraterrestrial flux-vaccuum from which only sorrow and despair can escape.

Seriously though, it sucks in the kind of way only broken promises and lost dreams can suck. It's the kind of game that you desperately want to love, but you can't, and every time you see what it could be, you immediately see that it's not, right afterwards. It is a let-down that just keeps letting you down. It is like the son you always wanted, but that turns out to be a constant disappointment, leaving no emotions alive but resentment and bitterness. It is the game that clings to your legs and begs for your love, but it's clammy arms are covered in sores and boils, and you cannot help but to look away with tears in your eyes.

 

[Redshirt #42]

I call bullshit. Yes, the combat wasn't good, and the encounters were shit compared to games like Baldur's Gate II and Icewind Dale, and often the options to even make truly interesting encounters weren't there - but the underlying system was solid. It worked. You didn't want to kill yourself just because there was combat, nor did you ever feel like you had to fight the game just to do something relatively reasonable. It's by far the game's weakest point, but it's not nearly as bad as some would claim.

I think a lot of people are biased against Planescape's combat because they're comparing it to the Infinity Engine games that came later. I agree, it wasn't great, but I personally had more fun with it than with the low level combat in unmodded Baldur's Gate (in which you couldn't even run).

Also, there seems to be the dominant opinion that there's no point in playing anything but a wizard TNO in Planescape Torment. Sure, they do get the most extra dialogue, but t hey're also by far the weakest class available. Thieves are stronger because of the unlimited supply of Dirty Rat Charms from merchants, which you can use to backstab multiple times in combat (works great for Glabrezu-kebab removal in Undersigil), although to be fair Annah can use that tactic in any TNO's party too. However, since there's no "You must gather your party before venturing forth." in Planescape and because of the interesting way TNO's immortality works (the way it teleports you with your party around when TNO dies), a thief TNO can be used for a relatively pacifist run where you avoid most combat (you technically don't kill anyone, even the few times you have to fight, since the obligatory zombie in Mortuary is already dead). Furthermore, a theif TNO gets some extra dialogue that wizards don't have and you get about +4 extra points to spend on attributes compared to the wizard (so you can sorta keep up with the Wizard in the "dialogue" attributes), due to the thief's much less demanding XP table.

A fighter TNO gets the least class exclusive dialogue (pretty much none), but in return, he is the strongest. Especially if you're evil - you can easily solo the entire game slaughtering everyone in your path as a fighter TNO, and when I say everyone I do recommend you include lots of innocents in your kill list. It lets you get the Brimstone Hammer (from the Lady's Maze) early on and if you murder enough people, you can get the amazing Butcherer of Innocents from Coaxmetal (a fast +2 axe that heals you on every hit) which becomes available for sale only for an evil fighter TNO after you murder enough innocents. Isn't it just great how the game naturally rewards you for mindless killing by giving you better tools for mindless killing? Sure, you do eventually run into the problem of the Lady of Pain ending your life permanently but it's managable. Fun story - she almost stopped my murdering spree playthrough prematurely. I was stuck in Clerk's Ward and whenever I left the area, she would appear and exterminate me. I needed to get to the Lower Ward because I didn't have the unfolding portal yet. So it seemed like game over, but then I realized I could still escape certain death by entering the Modron Maze - the Portal Lens (that you're guaranteed to get) could then teleport me to the Lower Ward. So just like that, I escaped the Lady's wrath into Ravel's Maze and then into Curst and so on. Oh and in case you're wondering, no, she won't try to kill you anymore after you return to Sigil. Let bygones be bygones, I guess?

 

[Luckmann]

[...] If they were bad, you'd be howling here that something so important was messed up.

A dishonest shrew as usual. In fact, I've repeatedly praised the setting as a major redeeming factor. Not that you'd notice; that would require you to actually pay attention, instead of just spewing incoherent drivel in misplaced attempts to deflect or downplay the issues. Graphics, loading times and the larger setting cannot make up for even a fraction of the problems that make Tides of Numenera the failed abortion that it is. Makes me wonder if that's why you're defending it so hard.

 

[Forest Dweller]

So what's the consensus?

 

[Prime Junta]

So how bad does it suck? Sum up in a few short sentences pls.

Let me put it this way: there is no conceivable game where a quest to find the Mask of Prosper would be more appropriate.

 

[Luckmann]

So what's the consensus?

Before we get a consensus, we must first settle the fundamental issue: What is a true RPG, really?

 

[Commissar Draco]

So how bad does it suck? Sum up in a few short sentences pls.

Its banal, shit and boring game... not even so bad its fun to watch on Jewtube like Eisenhorn the Ordo Xenos was. Shame cause I do love the background graphics and general idea of post post far future apocalyptic after n-th dark age setting where archeotech is magic made into RP game but the execution sucks; and what Comrade @Luckman said... there are decent or even fun quests and pieces there but are all buried into very dis-pointing sludge of lore dumps, shity fights and absurdity of western Librul values in faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar future. Not to mention how absurd this whole let's prevent execution quest was. Tyranny with its lore hyperlinks in text for lore felt much less them park than this. (and yes I know your gal or guy had amnesia but he was not made into tolder by it)

 

[AwesomeButton]

Let me put it this way: there is no conceivable game where a quest to find the Mask of Prosper would be more appropriate.

You're not the only one with this association:

"He stared eternity in the face and did not blink", says a merchant of sculptures. Where have I heard this...

 

[Luckmann]

So how bad does it suck? Sum up in a few short sentences pls.

Let me put it this way: there is no conceivable game where a quest to find the Mask of Prosper would be more appropriate.

Would be?

Spoiler

Is.

Spoiler

 

[bataille]

So what's the consensus?

Welcome to Codex of Slating Intellectual Lusts. It's just like regular Codex, but without... consensus.

 

[Lady_Error]

[...] If they were bad, you'd be howling here that something so important was messed up.

A dishonest shrew as usual. In fact, I've repeatedly praised the setting as a major redeeming factor. Not that you'd notice; that would require you to actually pay attention, instead of just spewing incoherent drivel in misplaced attempts to deflect or downplay the issues. Graphics, loading times and the larger setting cannot make up for even a fraction of the problems that make Tides of Numenera the failed abortion that it is.

You said it yourself, moron:

[...] The setting is good, graphics are good, the loading times are excellent. [...]

Truly, you have the highest standards.

Thing is, I can't agree with any of those.

Or maybe you should get off those drugs if you meant the opposite.

And again, just ignore that some quests and the C&C in them are excellent too.

 

[Prime Junta]

Would be?

Shhh, you're spoiling it for someone.

(Clumsy phrasing on my part. Should've said something like "the quest to find the Mask of Prosper is a perfect fit for this game.")

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Lady Error ,Luckman is a counter-troll, planted by the shills to provide such appallingly absurd anti-posts that it sends the waverers into hardcore fanboyism, because, although T:ToN is pretty crap, it's nothing compared to the absolute shite that pours out of Luckman's gob.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I'm convinced Luckmann is LARPing a generic angry Codexian who's spams increasingly larger walls of butthurt that make increasingly less sense with every post.

It's a well executed troll, I take my cap off to you friend.

 

[hexer]

Finished it today.
I can't recommend it to anyone.. especially to those who previously played PST.
There are so many disappointments.
It's hard to think of anything that was good actually...

I mean...

Spoiler

the fucking end game area doesn't even exist!
It's just protagonists & antagonists floating in a fucking black void with the Sorrow replying to your question about its true nature along the lines "Huh, I'm just me, big bad Sorrow, no need to explain myself"