HAHAHAHA, OH WOW
Yeah, the game is totes redpilled. And I thought headcannon only applied to shipping.
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Wadjet Eye Unavowed - Dave Gilbert's RPG-inspired urban fantasy game
- Thread starter Crooked Bee
- Start date
SCO
Arcane
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2009
- Messages
- 16,320
It's a ok game but i like some of their other previous games more.
I'm also thinking that WE is sort of diffusing their effort here for very little payoff cause they aren't a studio that can pump out one of these every semester - between paying actors/artists and designing puzzles for 6 alternate character combinatorics and just having 5 more cases i'll take the second every time. Resonance and blackwell had the better idea of not going overboard with this idea of switching characters and deeper systems than just 'oh now i use character icon on object' as it was a true switch iirc.
It was still relevant and it wasn't as much a studio drain. But hey, couch-designing here so pretty much pointless bitching. I like QFG a lot, so this is sort of hypocrisy too, but i honestly feel that Unavowed didn't put in as much payoff on 'alternate routes' and character only zones/secrets for this kind of design to be as impressive. You solve puzzles differently, but the same puzzle (very often if not always) that leads to the same zone, if that makes sense.
I'm also thinking that WE is sort of diffusing their effort here for very little payoff cause they aren't a studio that can pump out one of these every semester - between paying actors/artists and designing puzzles for 6 alternate character combinatorics and just having 5 more cases i'll take the second every time. Resonance and blackwell had the better idea of not going overboard with this idea of switching characters and deeper systems than just 'oh now i use character icon on object' as it was a true switch iirc.
It was still relevant and it wasn't as much a studio drain. But hey, couch-designing here so pretty much pointless bitching. I like QFG a lot, so this is sort of hypocrisy too, but i honestly feel that Unavowed didn't put in as much payoff on 'alternate routes' and character only zones/secrets for this kind of design to be as impressive. You solve puzzles differently, but the same puzzle (very often if not always) that leads to the same zone, if that makes sense.
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I just finished the game and for me it was a good game but not great.
I was quite hyped about the RPG influences on the game but it doesn't feel all that satisfying when you're actually playing the game. I think the most satisfying thing are the choices you make during the game, that is always welcome in my book and I do think it enhances this game quite a bit. But the whole gender/background thing, plus choosing who goes with you on the missions... myeeeh. It's not that interesting, even if the idea is good. Like someone said, it feels like it's something that probably added a *huge* burden on the writer, but when you play the game, it's just not that interesting.
In full-on RPGs, finding those hidden little things that you only get if you are *that* gender, with *this* skillset and using *those* companions is one of the best things ever. Here? Not so much.
I enjoyed the writing but I also thought the companions were a bit boring. For me, it was adequate but they feel pretty one-dimensional. Bring the recovering alcoholic guy... be prepared to have everything he talks about somehow be about addiction for example. I mean, there's more to the characters but it feels like the game pushes their defining traits pretty heavily.
I think the best thing about the game were the missions themselves. It was always fun to dive into a new one, and uncover the mystery of it. Secondary characters are often good, the atmosphere is great and visuals/music are on point.
Gameplaywise, it's very, very easy which was to be expected I guess. Helps the pacing of the story, doesn't do much for anyone wanting to dig into some difficult puzzles.
So yeah, good game that didn't quite live up to my expectations. Will definitely replay it at some point.
I was quite hyped about the RPG influences on the game but it doesn't feel all that satisfying when you're actually playing the game. I think the most satisfying thing are the choices you make during the game, that is always welcome in my book and I do think it enhances this game quite a bit. But the whole gender/background thing, plus choosing who goes with you on the missions... myeeeh. It's not that interesting, even if the idea is good. Like someone said, it feels like it's something that probably added a *huge* burden on the writer, but when you play the game, it's just not that interesting.
In full-on RPGs, finding those hidden little things that you only get if you are *that* gender, with *this* skillset and using *those* companions is one of the best things ever. Here? Not so much.
I enjoyed the writing but I also thought the companions were a bit boring. For me, it was adequate but they feel pretty one-dimensional. Bring the recovering alcoholic guy... be prepared to have everything he talks about somehow be about addiction for example. I mean, there's more to the characters but it feels like the game pushes their defining traits pretty heavily.
I think the best thing about the game were the missions themselves. It was always fun to dive into a new one, and uncover the mystery of it. Secondary characters are often good, the atmosphere is great and visuals/music are on point.
Gameplaywise, it's very, very easy which was to be expected I guess. Helps the pacing of the story, doesn't do much for anyone wanting to dig into some difficult puzzles.
So yeah, good game that didn't quite live up to my expectations. Will definitely replay it at some point.
not an argument, failed on both responses, way to prove all of your opponents right
The voices in your head are not actually other people.
V_K
Arcane
The problem with this scene is that it's played for laughs. So whether it's rape or homosexuality that's the laughing matter here (which I also think is open to interpretation, although erring on the side of the latter), it's very distasteful and juvenile either way.
Pyke
The Brotherhood
I think I can give my 0.2c here. The amount of emails I've received that have said that the puzzles in Stasis are too easy are pretty much 50/50 with the amount of emails I've received saying that the puzzles were too hard.
If I view a chart of play time I can literally see the players drop off at around 3 hours into the game - in some cases I can actually pinpoint the exact puzzle that people gave up on (its usually where they need to escape the sewer, so either the 'drain the tanks' puzzle, or the 'pool cue/lighter' combo). People either stop playing there - or blaze through the rest of the game because they have consulted a walkthrough, so they keep using it to finish.
As an Adventure Game designer you are constantly in this push/pull place with puzzles - and honestly its usually 'better' design to come down on the side of easier puzzles that ensures a player progresses.
There are things that could be done to avoid these pitfalls - multiple solutions, less linear storytelling, built in hint systems, etc - but as an indie with limited time and budget it usually boils down to a golden triangle of 'Story, Puzzles, Mechanics - pick 2'.
If I view a chart of play time I can literally see the players drop off at around 3 hours into the game - in some cases I can actually pinpoint the exact puzzle that people gave up on (its usually where they need to escape the sewer, so either the 'drain the tanks' puzzle, or the 'pool cue/lighter' combo). People either stop playing there - or blaze through the rest of the game because they have consulted a walkthrough, so they keep using it to finish.
As an Adventure Game designer you are constantly in this push/pull place with puzzles - and honestly its usually 'better' design to come down on the side of easier puzzles that ensures a player progresses.
There are things that could be done to avoid these pitfalls - multiple solutions, less linear storytelling, built in hint systems, etc - but as an indie with limited time and budget it usually boils down to a golden triangle of 'Story, Puzzles, Mechanics - pick 2'.
V_K
Arcane
How's that even a choice?
That would all be fine and dandy if not for the fact that for example Crystal Shard can have all three while making games for free.
V_K
Arcane
Well, to be fair they also have a 5-7 years production cycle.
fantadomat
Arcane
Yup,it is a fucking excuse. Also the fuck is mechanics,they are not reinventing the fucking genre. You point at shit and click,you don't need some mad skillz to implement that shit.
Pyke
The Brotherhood
Mechanics is multiple puzzle solutions, built in hint systems, branching dialogue, multiple characters, etc. All of these things add a huge amount of complexity to the game. You have to choose where to place your limited resources.
Pyke
The Brotherhood
They are the extreme - but you arent wrong. Although with Telltale I think its was more of a successful experiment than the limitations of budget and time (which would allow you to implement mechanics to make the game 'better').
MRY
Wormwood Studios
Pyke and Dave are supporting themselves by selling games; the Crystal Shards team are not, and neither am I. The entire dynamic changes. In one instance, you're a slave to the market, in the other, you're not. If the market says, "We will only let you feed yourself and your family if you produce games that include no puzzle-friction," you'd be silly to answer, "Well, I'd rather starve than let you breeze through my game, so no." But it's not just economic. Very few people feel a spiritual need to design or implement puzzles; most adventure game developers start from a visual (Chris?) or narrative (Dave?) imperative. Adventure games are a vector to share their art, and whether the vector includes puzzles or not is ultimately of little importance. "Give up sharing your story so that you can include puzzles!" is not going to be persuasive to someone like Dave who has stories, not puzzles, to share.
Even though I'm not much of a puzzle designer, I do feel an imperative to include them, and, as I said, I don't care about the money so much, so it's easy for me to walk away from sales/exposure. It is a little unfortunate, though, because the more adventure developers gleefully denounce puzzles as stupid, archaic, obstructive, etc., the more primed customers are to walk away from games that include them. "If there is friction in a game, it's because the developer doesn't know what he's doing and hates you!" is a way for developers to endear themselves to a mass market, but at the cost of reinforcing the biases that market already has against the core element of the genre. (By the way, I'm not suggesting that Chris or Dave says things like that, but many do.)
Lots of adventure games include unique mechanics -- "parties" of protagonists, action sequences, branching narratives, etc. Of course, Heroine's Quest is much more mechanically complex than Unavowed, so I'm not sure the point applies here. But, for instance, Beautiful Desolation has a bazillion features that Primordia doesn't.
fantadomat
Arcane
Ok i was a tad bit over edgy here,sorry guys haven't slept in 40 hours and had/have a bit of work to do 
. Still that triangle thing piss me off,i mean you can add all three things in different quantities. If a game lacks one of the three things it won't be much of fun. Still i do get it that some of those three things have to be the core and the focus of the devs.
As for the audience,well the market share doesn't strike me as something that big. From what i have seen it is pretty niche. Most people that buy and play such games do know what they want and expect from the games. I personally expect pretty decent writing in such games and the puzzles are after thought. Unless the puzzles are a little bit more complex than put a few items together. Also the old type of puzzles that use some retarded pun logic are shit,a nice logical puzzles is always fun even if hard. For harder puzzles you could eater make them optional or make them skippable with a button/hints.
As for Beautiful Desolation,it looks cool and interesting. Would check it out when it comes out. Good luck with it.
. Still that triangle thing piss me off,i mean you can add all three things in different quantities. If a game lacks one of the three things it won't be much of fun. Still i do get it that some of those three things have to be the core and the focus of the devs.As for the audience,well the market share doesn't strike me as something that big. From what i have seen it is pretty niche. Most people that buy and play such games do know what they want and expect from the games. I personally expect pretty decent writing in such games and the puzzles are after thought. Unless the puzzles are a little bit more complex than put a few items together. Also the old type of puzzles that use some retarded pun logic are shit,a nice logical puzzles is always fun even if hard. For harder puzzles you could eater make them optional or make them skippable with a button/hints.
As for Beautiful Desolation,it looks cool and interesting. Would check it out when it comes out. Good luck with it.
MRY
Wormwood Studios
By the way, I think comparing GOG and Steam reviews to Unavowed is interesting on this point.
The top Steam reviews are all glowingly positive and says things like "there were a couple of puzzles that slowed me down ... but this mostly flowed very smoothly" (I love this one because it actually demonstrates the "friction" metaphor I use) and praise the game as "streamlined - ... a 'down to earth' ... story with limited number of items, locations, and lack of obscure moon logic puzzles. ... Removing the right-click-to-examine feature of P&C games and with cursor changes indicating hotspots, the gameplay time is less hunting for stuff that can be done, but more *doing* stuff. Not as cinematic as Telltale's stuff, but there's a huge emphasis on listening, talking, worldbuilding and solving situations instead of dealing with arbitrary messed up puzzles."
Top GOG reviews are more mixed -- the top one is titled "Disappointment" and complains "The puzzles and exploration are very streamlined compared to previous games but not as bad as in Daedalic's 'Silence' for example." A 4-star review says "if you're looking for challenging puzzles, look elsewhere. I will say that the game's mechanics are much more streamlined to assist the story focus; no manually looking at every object and trying to use every item with another - you can just pass your eye over and get the description. This just also happens to make the puzzles laughably easy in some situations."
The exact same features, even the exact same words for those features (e.g., "streamlined") flip from positive to negative. But every day, GOG shrinks in proportion to Steam as a distribution channel, if you have to please one and not the other, Steam's the way to go.
The top Steam reviews are all glowingly positive and says things like "there were a couple of puzzles that slowed me down ... but this mostly flowed very smoothly" (I love this one because it actually demonstrates the "friction" metaphor I use) and praise the game as "streamlined - ... a 'down to earth' ... story with limited number of items, locations, and lack of obscure moon logic puzzles. ... Removing the right-click-to-examine feature of P&C games and with cursor changes indicating hotspots, the gameplay time is less hunting for stuff that can be done, but more *doing* stuff. Not as cinematic as Telltale's stuff, but there's a huge emphasis on listening, talking, worldbuilding and solving situations instead of dealing with arbitrary messed up puzzles."
Top GOG reviews are more mixed -- the top one is titled "Disappointment" and complains "The puzzles and exploration are very streamlined compared to previous games but not as bad as in Daedalic's 'Silence' for example." A 4-star review says "if you're looking for challenging puzzles, look elsewhere. I will say that the game's mechanics are much more streamlined to assist the story focus; no manually looking at every object and trying to use every item with another - you can just pass your eye over and get the description. This just also happens to make the puzzles laughably easy in some situations."
The exact same features, even the exact same words for those features (e.g., "streamlined") flip from positive to negative. But every day, GOG shrinks in proportion to Steam as a distribution channel, if you have to please one and not the other, Steam's the way to go.
fantadomat
Arcane
You can't judge the users quality only based on the steam reviews. There could be more people that agreed with the gog review yet they are on steam.Also i noticed that GoG reviews have a lot more rating than the steam ones.
MRY
Wormwood Studios
The puzzles resulted* in horrible reviews from every major reviewer (perhaps they are not "people" by this standard), and many negative reviews on Steam and GOG. For instance, the only negative review we've gotten in the last two months begins: "I actually ended up liking this game but only with a walkthrough." Even positive reviews often complain about the puzzles being too hard or too frequent.
(* Well, at least the stated grievance was often puzzles; whether that was the actual reason for the dislike, who knows?)
I also think Primordia was in a great place regarding its puzzles. I might be misremembering since it's been a while but I can't remember any puzzle that was that old-school "this makes no bloody sense at all" type of design, which is a very good thing. But it had some where I definitely got stuck for a while. But... I like that. And again, they felt like they made some sense when you solved them.
I mean, I don't think it would come as a surprise that a developer wanting to have an adventure game game "cross over" into the more lucrative mainstream waters (if one can call it mainstream, we're still dealing with point and click adventure games with old-school graphics) will go with a more story-heavy, puzzle light approach. People are all about feeling like they're making progress in their games.
I mean, I don't think it would come as a surprise that a developer wanting to have an adventure game game "cross over" into the more lucrative mainstream waters (if one can call it mainstream, we're still dealing with point and click adventure games with old-school graphics) will go with a more story-heavy, puzzle light approach. People are all about feeling like they're making progress in their games.
The puzzles were very hard, but they eased up a lot once I started asking my fucking boy Crispin for some help! The only puzzle that I thought was ridiculous and actually took me ages to do was the Memoria one with the terminal. I don't know why, but for some reason it took me fucking forever to realize the bolded words were important. I also got really lucky with some of the code ones with the transmitter. I remember just randomly going through numbers 0-9 for the bomblet on both the far left and the far right, where I eventually got it. My only complaint was that some I had to learn to click EVERYTHING. The first part of the game took me forever as well because I didn't even realize I could click the little rag.
The puzzles resulted* in horrible reviews from every major reviewer (perhaps they are not "people" by this standard), and many negative reviews on Steam and GOG. For instance, the only negative review we've gotten in the last two months begins: "I actually ended up liking this game but only with a walkthrough." Even positive reviews often complain about the puzzles being too hard or too frequent.
(* Well, at least the stated grievance was often puzzles; whether that was the actual reason for the dislike, who knows?)
Something I've praised Primordia for before is the fact that it has a nice number of little unique interfaces for all kinds of shit. The kiosk had me stuck for a while but it was fun because it was just cool interacting with it, simple though the interaction may be. Same with putting in codes into all those unique interfaces or whatever the case may be. All of that stuff makes it way more fun to try and figure out the puzzles. Makes you feel like a real tinkerer, which fit really well with Horatio obviously.
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