Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Wadjet Eye Unavowed - Dave Gilbert's RPG-inspired urban fantasy game

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,719
Location
California
Yeah—I think the puzzles are pretty straightforward once you have the old school adventure mindset of picking up items, examining hotspots, etc. As more of the genre teaches away from these techniques, it’s not surprising that players get frustrated by games that build upon them.

I have a naive hope that as culture swings back to practical competencies (cooking, building, gardening, brewing, etc.), we might have another generation willing to wrestle with adventure game puzzles. :)
 

ItsChon

Resident Zoomer
Patron
Joined
Jul 1, 2018
Messages
5,387
Location
Երևան
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
as culture swings back to practical competencies
Lol. As the resident active millennial on this forum, let me just put this shit to rest. There is no cultural back swing, not yet anyway. Millennials aren't QUITE as bad as the internet would have you think, but it's pretty fucking close.
 

Big Wrangle

Guest
I have a naive hope that as culture swings back to practical competencies (cooking, building, gardening, brewing, etc.), we might have another generation willing to wrestle with adventure game puzzles.
I wonder if Strangeland will fare better with major outlets. Not necessarily because of some magic adventure revival or a cultural swing, but I noticed journalists talk about Primordia highly, with some even vocing that they heavily disagree with said review on the site about it.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,719
Location
California
ItsChon A lot of young people I know have interests in the topics I mentioned, as well as more technical stuff like building keyboards or synthesizers or things like that. These are mostly dilettantish pursuits (like a yuppie learning how to butcher a pig, for instance) as opposed to truly practical ones arising from the needs of running a household, but still, they seem sincere and hands-on.

Big Wrangle Who knows? I'm not sure Strangeland is as good a game as Primordia -- it's certainly smaller -- so I would be somewhat disappointed if the reaction was that it was better. That said, Vic and I have presumably improved in art/writing over the past few years, so maybe that will help.
 

ItsChon

Resident Zoomer
Patron
Joined
Jul 1, 2018
Messages
5,387
Location
Երևան
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
ItsChon A lot of young people I know have interests in the topics I mentioned, as well as more technical stuff like building keyboards or synthesizers or things like that. These are mostly dilettantish pursuits (like a yuppie learning how to butcher a pig, for instance) as opposed to truly practical ones arising from the needs of running a household, but still, they seem sincere and hands-on.
Which part of California do you live in? I live in SoCal, specifically the LA area, so it's entirely possible that I just have shit luck.
 

Anthedon

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 1, 2015
Messages
4,784
Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I think I can give my 0.2c here. The amount of emails I've received that have said that the puzzles in Stasis are too easy are pretty much 50/50 with the amount of emails I've received saying that the puzzles were too hard.
If I view a chart of play time I can literally see the players drop off at around 3 hours into the game - in some cases I can actually pinpoint the exact puzzle that people gave up on (its usually where they need to escape the sewer, so either the 'drain the tanks' puzzle, or the 'pool cue/lighter' combo). People either stop playing there - or blaze through the rest of the game because they have consulted a walkthrough, so they keep using it to finish.
As an Adventure Game designer you are constantly in this push/pull place with puzzles - and honestly its usually 'better' design to come down on the side of easier puzzles that ensures a player progresses.

There are things that could be done to avoid these pitfalls - multiple solutions, less linear storytelling, built in hint systems, etc - but as an indie with limited time and budget it usually boils down to a golden triangle of 'Story, Puzzles, Mechanics - pick 2'.

:negative:

How do these people get out of bed without injuring themselves?
 

ItsChon

Resident Zoomer
Patron
Joined
Jul 1, 2018
Messages
5,387
Location
Երևան
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
MRY The vast majority of people that I knew in High School all wanted to go to College to become someone who either worked in the medical field or majored in business; with the occasional teacher and computer scientist here or there. Most of these people were frankly not smart enough to do these kinds of jobs (not for a lack of trying, they just didn't have the IQ for it), and I knew very few people that were interested in practical jobs such as becoming a chef, construction, corporate, or handwork (electrician, plumber, carpenter, brewing, etc). I work at a Brewery, and though I benefited from some nepotism, it would have been a very viable option for many of the people I knew who went to High School, especially because the Brewery is only a mile or two away from it. I can see this being different as you move further into America, but I've met several young people from states like Kansas or Nebraska, and they were all enamored by California and seemed like they were in the same boat as the deluded kids I find here.

I don't think it's as bad as some people say, but when the majority of people are so delusional, I can only see the situation getting worse once they have kids.
 

Fizzii

Crystal Shard
Developer
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
185
That would all be fine and dandy if not for the fact that for example Crystal Shard can have all three while making games for free.
Well, to be fair they also have a 5-7 years production cycle.
Bit late to the party, but I would go crazy if our production cycle were that long. A Tale of Two Kingdoms (original) was 2.75 years, Heroine's Quest was 4 years, and that was with huge gaps where no one was doing anything (real life, lack of motivation etc, which just gets on my goat because I don't like things when they stall). But yeah, we aren't staking our livelihoods on game making; both of us make more in our day jobs.

Mechanics is multiple puzzle solutions, built in hint systems, branching dialogue, multiple characters, etc. All of these things add a huge amount of complexity to the game. You have to choose where to place your limited resources.

Pyke and Dave are supporting themselves by selling games; the Crystal Shards team are not, and neither am I. The entire dynamic changes. In one instance, you're a slave to the market, in the other, you're not. If the market says, "We will only let you feed yourself and your family if you produce games that include no puzzle-friction," you'd be silly to answer, "Well, I'd rather starve than let you breeze through my game, so no." But it's not just economic. Very few people feel a spiritual need to design or implement puzzles; most adventure game developers start from a visual (Chris?) or narrative (Dave?) imperative. Adventure games are a vector to share their art, and whether the vector includes puzzles or not is ultimately of little importance. "Give up sharing your story so that you can include puzzles!" is not going to be persuasive to someone like Dave who has stories, not puzzles, to share.

Even though I'm not much of a puzzle designer, I do feel an imperative to include them, and, as I said, I don't care about the money so much, so it's easy for me to walk away from sales/exposure. It is a little unfortunate, though, because the more adventure developers gleefully denounce puzzles as stupid, archaic, obstructive, etc., the more primed customers are to walk away from games that include them. "If there is friction in a game, it's because the developer doesn't know what he's doing and hates you!" is a way for developers to endear themselves to a mass market, but at the cost of reinforcing the biases that market already has against the core element of the genre. (By the way, I'm not suggesting that Chris or Dave says things like that, but many do.)

mechanics
Lots of adventure games include unique mechanics -- "parties" of protagonists, action sequences, branching narratives, etc. Of course, Heroine's Quest is much more mechanically complex than Unavowed, so I'm not sure the point applies here. But, for instance, Beautiful Desolation has a bazillion features that Primordia doesn't.

Pretty much in agreement with MRY here. Radiant prioritizes interactivity first, and I think the added bonus is that 1) he's a software engineer by background and 2) he's creative and enjoys reading and writing, is why he can combine and implement it more effectively. Whereas it would take someone else, who is a non-coder, longer to implement, and if you're working with a separate programmer altogether, then you have to start being specific with every little thing you want.

In our case, Radiant decides what he wants, and he makes it happen :D.
 

StaticSpine

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 14, 2013
Messages
3,232
Location
Moscow
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Finished the game yesterday. It's the first adventure game I finished without any walkthroughs (I really suck at those though adventure is one of my preferable genres). So yeah, I have no complains about puzzles being too easy.

I liked the idea with the hub, where you can talk to your companions and the ability to take different characters to missions. Also I liked the choices you have to make - there were no obviously "good" and "bad" ones and there were companions supporting different points of view.
 

Alpan

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 4, 2018
Messages
1,340
Grab the Codex by the pussy Pathfinder: Wrath
I liked the game overall -- the small stories are quite alright and the hub/companion systems are well executed. I do have some personal gripes, however, and would be interested in DaveGilbert 's response:

  • The gory scenes in the origin stories set an expectation for a certain, darker tone of storytelling that is by and large not followed through by the rest of the game. It very quickly becomes the standard Gilbert fare with the quipping, good-natured characters and the utilization of fade-to-black scenes for anything that would result in gore is rather disappointing, not to mention inconsistent with the beginning. I am not saying the game ought to have been a slasher movie but certainly a more violent, brooding atmosphere as implied by the opening would have differentiated it from say, the Blackwell series, and suited the game's themes. The color palette certainly fits.
  • The almost blasé appearances and discussion of such fantastical beings as djinni, fae, spriggans and elementals, complete with the implication of their own hierarchies and societies do not just serve to turn the Gilbertian universe into Harry Potter (with mundanes instead of muggles) but also undermine the proceedings in the Blackwell series. Gilbert has chosen to expand on the mythology of his universe but that expansion inevitably comes at the cost of watering down his existing stake in Rosa Blackwell's story. Whether this was a choice worth making is for him to decide but a less fanciful worldbuilding should have been considered.
 

bertram_tung

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 6, 2012
Messages
1,254
Location
Sunco Gasoline Facility
Insert Title Here
Just beat it for the first time after playing slowly over the last couple weeks. I was a male policeman.

Great Job, Dave & company. I'm looking forward to another play through.
 

Alpan

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 4, 2018
Messages
1,340
Grab the Codex by the pussy Pathfinder: Wrath
I haven't gone back for a replay yet, but I've been listening to the OST. Thomas Regin really outdid himself this time, it's a perfectly fine album to listen to on its own. I'd embed some links to it but there aren't any from what I could see on YouTube.
 

Whiny-Butthurt-Liberal

Guest
Yatzee's review reminded me that we have an SdveAdven game forum. So, is it worth checking out? The art style looks just the way a traditional adventure game should look.
 

SerratedBiz

Arcane
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
4,143
That's the thing. Game is beautiful, writing is good, characters are interesting - puzzles are so basic to the point of barely being puzzles at all. Every item that you find is basically going to be used within the next 5 minutes of exploring and the amount of hotspots in any given screen ranges between 1-3. As an adventure game, it's more akin to Dear Esther than to the Lucasarts or Sierra games of old. That is, puzzles are there to justify the 'game' aspect in what's otherwise an animated, graphical novel.

I liked it and I finished it but I'd hope that this is not the trend that adventure games will take in the future.
 

Darth Roxor

Rattus Iratus
Staff Member
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
1,879,037
Location
Djibouti
I don't really agree about its looking beautiful. The character sprites are kinda derpy, the FX like fireballs etc look cheap as hell, and the backgrounds are so smudgy. I don't like the rusty colour palette either.
 

Big Wrangle

Guest
The character sprites are kinda derpy, the FX like fireballs etc look cheap as hell, and the backgrounds are so smudgy.
Congratulations you just described the classics.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom