Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[normie]

I have dodge and evasion

is good

There are two major differences between Dodge/Evasion and tin cans:

1. Dodge/Evasion require a humongous skill point investment, whereas tin cans require none at all (other than crafting skills, which are good for many other applications)
2. Tin cans don't stop working when you're incapacitated

okay so don't get incapacitated

...is what I suppose you might (emphasis on "might") say next. To that I say

don't get hit at all lmao

don't ever reply to me again, retard

 

[Black Angel]

There are two major differences between Dodge/Evasion and tin cans:

1. Dodge/Evasion require a humongous skill point investment, whereas tin cans require none at all (other than crafting skills, which are good for many other applications)
2. Tin cans don't stop working when you're incapacitated

I think it's time for Styg to do a wholesale revamp of character's defensive system, in addition to his future plan of reworking energy shields, such as:

1. Merging Dodge and Evasion, though in turn tone down the AoE damage reduction a bit so investing in it is still encourage, albeit not as humongous as before
2. Introduce an Armor skill for wearing medium and heavy armors, which reduces armor penalty as the skill increases, like how Colony Ship RPG did it. I'd imagine this requires a whole lot more work because I think with the introduction of such skill, armor penalty should also applies to AP

This won't solve the problem of Dodge/Evasion not working while being incapacitated, though, but I guess that's the point of the skill which purpose is 'not getting hit in the first place'.

 

[Ol' Willy]

I never looked at Dodge/Evasion as sole means of defense. Additional protection, allowing you to reduce incoming damage? That's more like it

 

[toro]

I never looked at Dodge/Evasion as sole means of defense. Additional protection, allowing you to reduce incoming damage? That's more like it

More damage is the additional protection

 

[Sykar]

I never looked at Dodge/Evasion as sole means of defense. Additional protection, allowing you to reduce incoming damage? That's more like it

But not at the insane cost and the insane RNG.

 

[Sheepherder]

infused rathound doesnt affect combat utilities. Also there was nerf long time ago and crit chance got lowered even with high quality, 10% is ultra top end

Not really. 10% can be achieved from a ~130quality SS fiber plus 44quality rathound leather. With 160quality SS you can go to 12%. Now that there's a merchant who sells higher quality rathound leather (supposedly up to 90s, but I'm not sure), you can probably go up to 15%.

 

[Sweeper]

There are two major differences between Dodge/Evasion and tin cans:

1. Dodge/Evasion require a humongous skill point investment, whereas tin cans require none at all (other than crafting skills, which are good for many other applications)
2. Tin cans don't stop working when you're incapacitated

...is what I suppose you might (emphasis on "might") say next. To that I say

But what about tin can AND dodge/evasion?

 

[Decado]

There are two major differences between Dodge/Evasion and tin cans:

1. Dodge/Evasion require a humongous skill point investment, whereas tin cans require none at all (other than crafting skills, which are good for many other applications)
2. Tin cans don't stop working when you're incapacitated

...is what I suppose you might (emphasis on "might") say next. To that I say

But what about tin can AND dodge/evasion?

I did this on my first build, because I didn't understand the skill system at first. The shame of it lies in this thread, for all to see, forever.

 

[CHEMS]

This won't solve the problem of Dodge/Evasion not working while being incapacitated, though, but I guess that's the point of the skill which purpose is 'not getting hit in the first place'.

Just take a bullhead pill and never worry about incapacitation again

 

[lukaszek]

Did some more research after brute forcing levelling with cheat engine.

can you cheat feats in without leveling? I always believed that all thievery feats should have been in single package

Didn't seem possible, with the script I found anyway.

Just used cheat engine for first time, you can add feats on char gen. Just started new dominating run as a filthy cheater... Most lvl1 feats are fluff anyway so I did grab most of them. At least thats what Im telling myself.
As such everyone will be free to claim that this dominating thrower build doesnt count

 

[Tygrende]

I have dodge and evasion

is good

There are two major differences between Dodge/Evasion and tin cans:

1. Dodge/Evasion require a humongous skill point investment, whereas tin cans require none at all (other than crafting skills, which are good for many other applications)
2. Tin cans don't stop working when you're incapacitated

okay so don't get incapacitated

...is what I suppose you might (emphasis on "might") say next. To that I say

don't get hit at all lmao

The problem with dodge/evasion runs deeper than just deprival of it via incaps/stuns/immobilizations/etc. You could make an effective dodge/evasion build that is nearly immune to it, for example psi with locus of control, escape artist and bullheads. In that case you cannot be stunned/incapped period, even if you did get hit with one before using bullhead you can just snap out of it with LoC and take it anyways, you can snap out of immobilizations too, the only issue would be getting off-balance debuff but there's also tabis that give immunity to it.

The real, actual problem with dodge/evasion is that it's inherently unreliable and only works against some attacks. Dodge/evasion does nothing vs. thought control. Even with dodge/evasion you're still going to get randomly 1-shot with aimed shots etc. 5% of the time. Being plain tanky on the other hand works more or less against everything, even if less so against some stuff and it works without a fail.

 

[Ol' Willy]

The problem with dodge/evasion runs deeper than just deprival of it via incaps/stuns/immobilizations/etc. You could make an effective dodge/evasion build that is nearly immune to it, for example psi with locus of control, escape artist and bullheads. In that case you cannot be stunned/incapped period, even if you did get hit with one before using bullhead you can just snap out of it with LoC and take it anyways, you can snap out of immobilizations too, the only issue would be getting off-balance debuff but there's also tabis that give immunity to it.

The real, actual problem with dodge/evasion is that it's inherently unreliable and only works against some attacks. Dodge/evasion does nothing vs. thought control. Even with dodge/evasion you're still going to get randomly 1-shot with aimed shots etc. 5% of the time. Being plain tanky on the other hand works more or less against everything, even if less so against some stuff and it works without a fail.

If you pump up Will to the max you get resolve so high that most incaps are simply resisted; higher Will also lessens damage from TC attacks. Dodge/Evasion full-Psi then?

 

[Tygrende]

The problem with dodge/evasion runs deeper than just deprival of it via incaps/stuns/immobilizations/etc. You could make an effective dodge/evasion build that is nearly immune to it, for example psi with locus of control, escape artist and bullheads. In that case you cannot be stunned/incapped period, even if you did get hit with one before using bullhead you can just snap out of it with LoC and take it anyways, you can snap out of immobilizations too, the only issue would be getting off-balance debuff but there's also tabis that give immunity to it.

The real, actual problem with dodge/evasion is that it's inherently unreliable and only works against some attacks. Dodge/evasion does nothing vs. thought control. Even with dodge/evasion you're still going to get randomly 1-shot with aimed shots etc. 5% of the time. Being plain tanky on the other hand works more or less against everything, even if less so against some stuff and it works without a fail.

If you pump up Will to the max you get resolve so high that most incaps are simply resisted; higher Will also lessens damage from TC attacks. Dodge/Evasion full-Psi then?

First of all resisting incaps is not as simple as just having resolve. Some things are resisted with resolve, some (very few) are resisted with fortitude and a lot is resisted with a hidden stat that only scales with level. You can't really resist stuff reliably via resolve/fortitude, either.

Dodge/evasion should work best with psi just because of LoC alone, also a number of abilities like precognition, but I'm convinced dodge/evasion builds should also have a decent HP buffer in case you get hit with bad RNG. Full psi is already starved for both ability and skill points. Hard to fit all that stuff into one build.

 

[Parabalus]

The problem with dodge/evasion runs deeper than just deprival of it via incaps/stuns/immobilizations/etc. You could make an effective dodge/evasion build that is nearly immune to it, for example psi with locus of control, escape artist and bullheads. In that case you cannot be stunned/incapped period, even if you did get hit with one before using bullhead you can just snap out of it with LoC and take it anyways, you can snap out of immobilizations too, the only issue would be getting off-balance debuff but there's also tabis that give immunity to it.

The real, actual problem with dodge/evasion is that it's inherently unreliable and only works against some attacks. Dodge/evasion does nothing vs. thought control. Even with dodge/evasion you're still going to get randomly 1-shot with aimed shots etc. 5% of the time. Being plain tanky on the other hand works more or less against everything, even if less so against some stuff and it works without a fail.

If you pump up Will to the max you get resolve so high that most incaps are simply resisted; higher Will also lessens damage from TC attacks. Dodge/Evasion full-Psi then?

You can't resist anything worthwhile.

 

[Ol' Willy]

You can't resist anything worthwhile.

I played full PSI, at 17 Will flashbangs, fears and breakdowns are mostly resisted

 

[Major_Blackhart]

I never looked at Dodge/Evasion as sole means of defense. Additional protection, allowing you to reduce incoming damage? That's more like it

More damage is the additional protection

Hit hard, first, and frequently. All you need to do.


On an aside, I'm now wondering on the viability of a critical focused build. For pistols.

Reckless - 7%
Per 11 for Scrutinous 7%
Seeker Goggles for Critical shooting (10% or more)
Infused Rathound Armor for Critical Increase (10% on avg)
Body Horror 3%
Steadfast Aim
Ambush

Not counting focus stim and hardcore chips, you have some brutal potential for the .44 Hammerer.

Assuming 10% for Seeker goggles, and not counting steadfast aim or ambush
10 - Base Pistols
7 - Reckless
7 - Scrutinous
10 - Seeker Goggles
10 - Infused Rathound Armor
3 - Body Horror
15 - Focus Stim
5 - Hardcore Chips
--
67% critical chance.


I never really thought about it, but that's kinda brutal. .44 Hammerer with Explosive Shells, decent throwing for Molotovs, well that just got nasty.


Shit.

 

[Ghulgothas]

Just run a Crossbow/Stealth build, man. Snipe, Aimed Shot, Flashbangs and Cutthroat. No need for armor when you're all about ending fights before they begin.

 

[ciox]

Explosive rounds are not that great, they don't react to crits last I checked, so you want to use them with Rapid Fire against very weak enemies, while your grenades are on cooldown.

I haven't tried it yet, but the fastest and least annoying way to get 100% pistol crit is to use the Smith&Wesson revolver from Wyatt.
Up to 93% crit without Scrutinous or Body Horror, just 6 spec points, meaning level 21.
Then you can get Body Horror for 96% against most critters, and finally drop Scrutinous to go up to 100%, or 103%, whichever you prefer.

Spoiler

37% (S&W with steadfast aim + 5 spec)
8% (recklessness + 1 spec)
15% (focus stim)
12% (rathound armor + skinner)
16% (seeker goggles)
5% (chips)
7% (scrutinous)
3% (body horror)
103% total

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Yeah, but the S&W has a damage range of 25-45 and a critical damage bonus of 100%. That's a major downside to it I think.

 

[Ol' Willy]

On an aside, I'm now wondering on the viability of a critical focused build. For pistols.

High-crit .44 Hammerer is indeed a hardcore thing. Add SI for real domination, though.

Although, without high DEX you won't be shooting too much and in this regard Hammerer is a gamey thing - you either hit and do massive damage or miss and suffer.

 

[ciox]

Yeah, but the S&W has a damage range of 25-45 and a critical damage bonus of 100%. That's a major downside to it I think.

I'd have to try it to know for sure, but I think it would be pretty damn good with Sharpshooter+Spec, not every mook needs to be hit by a nuke to die.
For aimed shots of course you'll still be using a .44 Hammerer or Deagle.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Yeah, but the S&W has a damage range of 25-45 and a critical damage bonus of 100%. That's a major downside to it I think.

I'd have to try it to know for sure, but I think it would be pretty damn good with Sharpshooter+Spec, not every mook needs to be hit by a nuke to die.
For aimed shots of course you'll still be using a .44 Hammerer or Deagle.

Dammit, I want 4-figures when I hit people. Doncha understand? It's gotta be this way!

 

[CHEMS]

Interesting combo i've been using: Aimed shot + Anatomically Aware Sniper Rifle + Smart Googles + Critical Power + Shooting Spree + Smoke Grenade. With decent stealth, you can kill an enemy and use the refunded AP to use the Smoke Grenade and exit combat.

 

[Sheepherder]

I never looked at Dodge/Evasion as sole means of defense. Additional protection, allowing you to reduce incoming damage? That's more like it

More damage is the additional protection

Hit hard, first, and frequently. All you need to do.


On an aside, I'm now wondering on the viability of a critical focused build. For pistols.

Reckless - 7%
Per 11 for Scrutinous 7%
Seeker Goggles for Critical shooting (10% or more)
Infused Rathound Armor for Critical Increase (10% on avg)
Body Horror 3%
Steadfast Aim
Ambush

Not counting focus stim and hardcore chips, you have some brutal potential for the .44 Hammerer.

Assuming 10% for Seeker goggles, and not counting steadfast aim or ambush
10 - Base Pistols
7 - Reckless
7 - Scrutinous
10 - Seeker Goggles
10 - Infused Rathound Armor
3 - Body Horror
15 - Focus Stim
5 - Hardcore Chips
--
67% critical chance.


I never really thought about it, but that's kinda brutal. .44 Hammerer with Explosive Shells, decent throwing for Molotovs, well that just got nasty.


Shit.

Crits work great with ballistic pistols post patch. Bullet time reduces AP cost by a lot, so you can get 4AP shots with Versatility. They also work with PER as well, as Sharpshooter now applies all the time, even after mowing. So you get to choose between PER for more damage per shot, but fewer (not by much) shots per turn, or DEX+Versatility+Fatal Throw for more shots per turn.
And explosive bullets don't crit

Here's what a PER version looks like, video by kaylee from discord:


And here's what a DEX version would look like endgame:

 

[lukaszek]

disgusting wizardry