Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Trashos]

FFS, is there ANYONE who won't enter my house?!

Spoiler

The Dude just showed up. He even had something to say when I looked at him funny.

Anyway, this I enjoyed! At least I know how he got in.

 

[Trashos]

Chem Pistols rock, but you do need the advanced catalyzing belt. I also craft my own, so not sure how the found ones play. Robots, heavy armored opponents, burrowers, expansion monsters etc. Also, the incendiary pistol is an easy way to set enemies on fire in order to trigger Ambush.

 

[Grunker]

am i the only one who can't read Eidein saying "most excellent" without hearing it in the voice of bill and ted in my head

 

[Grunker]

Hanna you beautiful, beautiful woman

 

[Trashos]

You should be going to the expansion right about now.

 

[lukaszek]

Doesn't work (at least it didn't for me). I think I might have a save so I can show you.

perhaps you tried to wear it in further areas where officer uniform is required?

 

[Parabalus]

Doesn't work (at least it didn't for me). I think I might have a save so I can show you.

perhaps you tried to wear it in further areas where officer uniform is required?

Can you get passed the warehouse as a female in uniform, without agility for the fence?

 

[Grunker]

You should be going to the expansion right about now.

I'm on my way as we speak. Don't have the Mechanics to craft that one until next level though

Not even with workbench bonus and Jon's Special

 

[lukaszek]

Doesn't work (at least it didn't for me). I think I might have a save so I can show you.

perhaps you tried to wear it in further areas where officer uniform is required?

Can you get pass the warehouse as a female in uniform, without agility for the fence?

fairly certain i used that shortcut, not hard since i always got interloper

 

[Grunker]

Shit that expansion battle track is amazeballs

 

[Blaine]

So the real MVP for me is level design. Exploration is of course part of it, but the exploration is so awesome because of the BRILLIANT level design. Whether it's cave mine labyrinths hunting down the Rathound King, dungeonesque research labs with multiple completion routes, the huge Depot A with it's constantly varying threats or something else, every level is just incredible.

Yes, the level design and exploration potential are top-tier. My only complaint is that a map was added; I myself immensely enjoyed navigating and memorizing the geography during my pre-map playthroughs, but others may have been robbed of this experience because if such a useful crutch is available, people will tend to rely on it.

Those who complained about the lack of a map are below contempt, and their opinions can safely be discarded.

For that reason alone I'm tempted to play a tanky melee character on my next run, even if Blaine seems to have been very frustrated with his Hoplite build (which was something like the build I was thinking of running on a subsequent playthrough). Maybe with enough tankyness, combat feels more smooth and like an actual series of decisions, rather the nuke-or-kite fiesta I'm going through on this playthrough.

I loved my hoplite build, as far as I can recall. It is a metagame pain in the ass specifically to engage in combat with locusts (though this also applies to literally any non-stealth melee build), and a hoplite build can seem somewhat underpowered compared to other build options, but not obnoxiously so—unlike, say, pre-buff Crossbows, which did feel obnoxiously underpowered.

Indeed, shield and spear is to my knowledge the only truly hard counter to the legions of vanishing, stinging cocksuckers scattered all throughout Underrail.

 

[Spark Mandriller]

Doesn't work (at least it didn't for me). I think I might have a save so I can show you.

Were you in stealth? Grey Army base is special in that they aggro if they see you in stealth. If you're not in stealth you should be able to use uniforms to get past cameras. They get mad if they see you throw grenades too, even if they don't hit anyone. Very suspicious guys.
Also one simple exploit is to run past people in combat mode. They can't see through your disguise without talking to you, and they can't talk to you in combat mode. Just turn it on, run past them, turn it off. Safe as long as you have enough move points to get out of talking range.

 

[Grunker]

So the real MVP for me is level design. Exploration is of course part of it, but the exploration is so awesome because of the BRILLIANT level design. Whether it's cave mine labyrinths hunting down the Rathound King, dungeonesque research labs with multiple completion routes, the huge Depot A with it's constantly varying threats or something else, every level is just incredible.

Yes, the level design and exploration potential are top-tier. My only complaint is that a map was added; I myself immensely enjoyed navigating and memorizing the geography during my pre-map playthroughs, but others may have been robbed of this experience because if such a useful crutch is available, people will tend to rely on it.

Those who complained about the lack of a map are below contempt, and their opinions can safely be discarded.

For that reason alone I'm tempted to play a tanky melee character on my next run, even if Blaine seems to have been very frustrated with his Hoplite build (which was something like the build I was thinking of running on a subsequent playthrough). Maybe with enough tankyness, combat feels more smooth and like an actual series of decisions, rather the nuke-or-kite fiesta I'm going through on this playthrough.

I loved my hoplite build, as far as I can recall. It is a metagame pain in the ass specifically to engage in combat with locusts (though this also applies to literally any non-stealth melee build), and a hoplite build can seem somewhat underpowered compared to other build options, but not obnoxiously so—unlike, say, pre-buff Crossbows, which did feel obnoxiously underpowered.

Indeed, shield and spear is to my knowledge the only truly hard counter to the legions of vanishing, stinging cocksuckers scattered all throughout Underrail.

I just had a sense of reading some frustrated posts by you about progressing with Spear + Shield on Dom, but maybe I made that up. Just out of curiosity, could you link your build?

I read somewhere that the shield doesn’t help against ranged attacks, seems kind of bullshit - the build would probably be less great than glass cannon builds even if it did.

 

[Hag]

Doesn't work (at least it didn't for me). I think I might have a save so I can show you.

Were you in stealth? Grey Army base is special in that they aggro if they see you in stealth. If you're not in stealth you should be able to use uniforms to get past cameras. They get mad if they see you throw grenades too, even if they don't hit anyone. Very suspicious guys.
Also one simple exploit is to run past people in combat mode. They can't see through your disguise without talking to you, and they can't talk to you in combat mode. Just turn it on, run past them, turn it off. Safe as long as you have enough move points to get out of talking range.

The disguise won't work if you killed a soldier beforehand, even if he was not found. Getting seen by camera may also null the trick, so you basically have to get to the lockers first thing after arrival.

 

[ItsChon]

As for my feelings for the game overall, the honeymoon phase i over and I'm still enjoying it very much. A few of the aforementioned niggles have turned into actual grievances though. Especially "merchant touring." I cannot fathom how that must have felt before Riftwalking, because even *with* Riftwalking, it's terrible. I understand why merchants don't just buy all of your stuff, but the fact that basically between every quest or exploration location you have to do a buy-and-sell sweep of every merchant - which even with riftwalking means crossing 10-15 screens on foot, is just the ultimate tedium. I've started turning off the game's volume and putting on some YouTube whenever I do these sweeps now, it's that boring.

Your first time through the game, I could definitely see why this might be boring. On my first play through, I played the game without crafting and didn't have to do any merchant runs. That being said, once you've already completed the game a few times, you already know what to expect from the game, and the joy comes from acquiring all the things you need for your build to work, and getting to navigate the fantastic levels/encounters with an entirely new play style that requires a totally different approach. Once you get to that point, the merchant runs to break up the same combat encounters you've done many times before becomes quite enjoyable, and it's like playing a game of slots as you check each merchant, hoping for that one specific piece of gear. As you play the game, you'll also know which merchants aren't worth visiting, as after you get to a certain level, the lower level merchants cease to offer much of anything that's really worth using. This is only made all the more fun when you have a super specific build that requires one very specific piece of gear at X quality to make it work.

As for the game itself, it really is immensely fun. I love the character system, but I've been pondering what the real MVP of this game is. The combat is kind of broken, at least on a CON 3 build light armor no defences build like mine. You have to kill everything and play with LoS or you die in typically one volley.

I wouldn't say this makes combat broken. If you're playing a glass cannon character, I have no clue why you wouldn't expect to get instantly deleted. Don't get me wrong, this is fun in its own way, and personally I think one of the best glass cannon builds is a TC/Psychokinesis Sniper hybrid. This is because the breaking LoS and running away playstyle of a glass cannon perfectly reflects what you'd want to be doing anyway as a Sniper who needs to keep distance between themselves and their enemies, and your Psionic abilities allow you to CC enemies and delete the ones that actually manage to make it close enough to you. As soon as you play a tankier build, you'll see how varied the combat can get.

If you're playing as a Tin Can build with maximum protection, unless you get sprint, you literally will not be able to move. In that case, it's fun to stack damage resisting drugs to maximize the amount of time you can deal damage, with feats such as Last Stand coming in interesting ways to counteract morphine debuffs and eking out a few extra turns when they're needed the most.

If you decide to play a Hoplite build, you'll have a mixture of both movement and tankiness once you get an energy shield going. Enemies that close the distance won't be able to get through your shield and spear, and enemies from a distance will have their bullets bouncing off your 2,000 capacity plus energy shield. You'll also have plenty of movement points to juggle LoS, and close the distance quickly on enemies that are far away.

That being said, combat is just one factor of what makes the game so great, which you've already stated. I'm just giving you some idea of what you can expect from some builds.

The quest design? Not really. There are some great quests (murders in the foundry), but by and large there's actually very few quests and they're not anything special.

You mentioned fixing the TV, which quest is this? If it's the one I'm thinking of, I'm shocked you didn't mention it and the ones leading up to it. Plus, there are a ton of great quests in Expedition, Institute, and the end game dungeon, as well as some of the differing Oligarch missions, depending on which ones you go with, and that's not mentioning the more hidden ones which I alluded to in my first sentence as well as one more quest line I'm thinking of.

After you try all of these, you can get back to us with your opinions on the quest design, but a lot of the quest design is also rooted with the quality of the dungeons, so it's hard to parse the two from each other.

The writing/atmosphere? It's can certainly be fantastic in spots, and I love the mysteries, the Faceless and the Institute, and in any other game The Arena would be just be a standard cRPG Arena, but here it is given true life with an Escape From LA/SLA Industries-esque thematic finish that works perfectly. But no, too much of the writing is run-of-the-mill for this to be the real MVP.

I have nothing against the writing. It can be very blunt to the point of being childish in some spots - clearly because it was hastily written

I think we're talking about two different things. I like the atmosphere, mysteries, characters and narrative more than the writing itself - that is, the prose. Styg can actually write quite well when he puts effort into it, but some of the hurried writing is almost childlike in its "and then..."-nature. I also detest the overt "taking it too far" lulzyness of some things. I don't mind a tongue in the cheek, but this game veers into Wasteland territory too much, and it doesn't suit it. The humor is best when it relies on the reader to catch a clever joke than when it is zany for an entire dialogue session or even questline.

Maybe I've just played the game so many times I've grown blind to these instances, but can you cite some examples? I really can't think of many examples that fit into what you've said.

So the real MVP for me is level design. Exploration is of course part of it, but the exploration is so awesome because of the BRILLIANT level design. Whether it's cave mine labyrinths hunting down the Rathound King, dungeonesque research labs with multiple completion routes, the huge Depot A with it's constantly varying threats or something else, every level is just incredible.

Enemy design ties into this. While human enemies might be copy-pasted across factions to an extend, I legitimately can't remember a game with as varied enemy design as this. There are certainly games with more enemy types, yes, but here EVERY SINGLE FUCKING ENEMY has something unique and legitimately interesting going on. Rathounds get scared by flares, Siphoners attach tounges and give unique debuffs, crawlers blocks your consumables, beetles are like tanky spellcasters and throw more devastating abilities with higher numbers, burrowers create spawn and throw poison darts... the enemy variety is just staggering. A massive achievement that should be looked upon as a guiding inspiration for any and all cRPGs going forward. What you have achieved here, @Styg, is truly masterful.

Level design is one of the high points of the game, and there are some fantastic levels in the DLC that you have to look forward to. It also makes me so optimistic about what Styg has planned for Infusion now that he's had so much time to improve as a game designer. You'll also be happy to note that there is new enemies in Expedition that also add to the variance, and it's really surprising how Styg manages to add so many different styles of enemies that all feel sufficiently different to be interesting, I will warn you now though, as soon as you hit Locusts, come to the forums and ask for help instead of struggling through them, so you save yourself some pain and suffering.

Happy you're enjoying the game. UR really is one of the greatest CRPGs of all time and it always brings me joy when another person gets to see what we've been so hyped about for so long.

 

[Grunker]

If you're playing a glass cannon character, I have no clue why you wouldn't expect to get instantly deleted

I fully expect that of course.

 

[Grunker]

As for the spots where you actually sort of addressed what my points were:

it's like playing a game of slots as you check each merchant

My criticism isn't of the slots but the tedious and constant retreading of many screens. Note that you're not actually defending what I was actually criticizing - just a lot of things around it (the break from combat, the slot machines etc.). I'm tempted to say "QED" but that would make me sound like kind of a cunt.

You also need to participate in the treadmill without crafting (to offload stuff).

If you're still set on defending the design, I think a constructive way of doing so is to answer this question: what would be lost if, by late game, you had the option of purchasing a high charon cost communication device which allowed you to initiate the barter screen of select merchants. You could even have a consumable that each time you found one, you could add an additional merchant to that screen. So that each time you found one, the retreading got lessened. It would fit the game's progression systems perfectly.

I'm just giving you some idea of what you can expect from some builds.

I don't know why you'd expect me not to, given that your summary is pretty much exactly what I pointed out. And that was my point:

My point was more that after playing for 20 levels I can see why most players do this, the way offensive actions and defensive actions are balanced (aka one is superior to the other in a number of ways). I fully expect to do an armor-and-defending run next time, but I also fully expect it to be kind of a hassle compared to what I'm doing right now.

What I'm saying is that I fully understand why glass cannon seems to be the community-accepted "most hassle-free way to play." And that's why I say combat is "kind of broken." You can either compete in the Intiative/Stealth/Nuke arms-race or you can deal with some fairly annoying mechanical hassles.

I'm not saying the combat is shit, mind you, I'm saying that unlike exploration and level design, it is not without its issues.

After you try all of these, you can get back to us with your opinions on the quest design, but a lot of the quest design is also rooted with the quality of the dungeons, so it's hard to parse the two from each other.

Hah, of course I can speak about the quality of quests I've actually done, regardless of what's in store (especially seeing as I've completed at least 3/4 of the game at this point). Again - I specifically stated that "there are some great quests", so I dunno why you get defensive here. But there are a fair few that amount to very simple fetch quests, and specifically the amount of ways quests can be completed isn't always that high.

Again, this is not to say quests suck, they certainly don't. But their design is not something that makes me go "wow, this is incredible, I've seldom seen such good design" - unlike the level and enemy design. And that was my point: that Underrail really stands out uniquely on those two points. That doesn't mean the rest isn't good, just that it isn't uniquely so.

I will warn you now though, as soon as you hit Locusts, come to the forums and ask for help instead of struggling through them, so you save yourself some pain and suffering.

Noted, thanks for the warning!

 

[Grunker]

Triple posting again like a boss:

Criticism is the way we find out what qualities a given thing has, and why those qualities are qualities. I can name no games I don't have criticism of. After all is said and done, Underrail might end up as one of my favourite games of all time - certainly the best game I've played this year - and in its case, I think the criticism paradoxically highlights why it is so good.

Why? Because the criticism is all about how "this part of the game isn't perfect." When that's the criticism you can expose a game to, you know it has fantastic design. The writing is a good example here: I am let down by areas of the writing which doesn't live up to the writing when it's at its best. I'm not saying "the prose is shit", I'm not saying "the overtly lulzy moments ruin everything", I'm saying: these parts are not as good as the high points, which are very high.

 

[ItsChon]

If you're playing a glass cannon character, I have no clue why you wouldn't expect to get instantly deleted

I fully expect that of course.

I did read that, but when I went back to draft my post it slipped my mind as everything was very spread out. My main point is that you acknowledge the style of combat you were expecting with your bridge, but you also called the combat broken. I don't mean to be pedantic, as it sounds like you don't actually think the combat broken, but I wanted to clarify that point just in case.

My criticism isn't of the slots but the tedious and constant retreading of many screens. Note that you're not actually defending what I was actually criticizing - just a lot of things around it (the break from combat, the slot machines etc.). I'm tempted to say "QED" but that would make me sound like kind of a cunt

What I'm trying to say is that for me, and someone like Trashos, the constant retreading of many screens doesn't feel tedious once you get to the point I was mentioning. I can't really defend how I feel about it, or criticize how you feel about it. Me bringing up things like break from combat, slot machines, etc, is me trying to explain why we the retreading of screens doesn't feel tedious. At the end of the day, if you don't like it, you don't like it. Just trying to shed some light on why others might enjoy it.

I don't know why you'd expect me not to, given that your summary is pretty much exactly what I pointed out. And that was my point:

What I'm saying is that I fully understand why glass cannon seems to be the community-accepted "most hassle-free way to play." And that's why I say combat is "kind of broken." You can either compete in the Intiative/Stealth/Nuke arms-race or you can deal with some fairly annoying mechanical hassles.

I'm not saying the combat is shit, mind you, I'm saying that unlike exploration and level design, it is not without its issues.

The point of me going into the specifics of how high con/heavy armor combat works is that I don't considering dealing with the the things that enemies can throw at you as a mechanical hassle. It's what makes Tank builds so fun to play in fact, imo. Maybe I'm just not understanding the point you're trying to make. And I will add that there is a big UR community on discord with their own views, so the community is more split than you might think.

Hah, of course I can speak about the quality of quests I've actually done, regardless of what's in store (especially seeing as I've completed at least 3/4 of the game at this point). Again - I specifically stated that "there are some great quests", so I dunno why you get defensive here. But there are a fair few that amount to very simple fetch quests, and specifically the amount of ways quests can be completed isn't always that high.

My post wasn't meant to be defensive. It's just that it sounds like you've locked yourself out of the some of the best quest lines in the game and I don't want to spoil them for you. These questlines take place before all the quests I mentioned above. This culminates into my two points, that there are more quality quests than you might think (addresses your point about the number of quests and the quality of said quests), and that they're evenly distributed throughout the game with the other quests that are more standard.

Again, this is not to say quests suck, they certainly don't. But their design is not something that makes me go "wow, this is incredible, I've seldom seen such good design" - unlike the level and enemy design. And that was my point: that Underrail really stands out uniquely on those two points. That doesn't mean the rest isn't good, just that it isn't uniquely so.

Fair enough, I definitely agree with you, and you pointing out highlights how seldom this is mentioned, even by people that are hyping up the game.

And again, this is all a bit premature, so I look forward to hearing your final thoughts, especially regarding the very end of the game heheh.

 

[Grunker]

My main point is that you acknowledge the style of combat you were expecting with your bridge, but you also called the combat broken.

I've explained the contradiction you perceive - twice in fact, once before your post and then again in response to yours - yet you still respond as if I hadn't.

Maybe I'm just not understanding the point you're trying to make

I think that the reigning overwhelming community favoring of glass cannon builds (as you'll see on both the Discord and the forums) stems from the fact that it is both infinitely more effective and easier to blow everything up in one or two turns than to engage in the mechanics of combat, because defenses are not well suited to keep you alive on Dom. This is similar to how D&D 3.5 and similar systems work, where defense is so inferior to offense that it breaks the combat - because rather than an ebb and flow of the mechanics, it comes down to who kills the other party quick enough to avoid interacting with it entirely.

The best example of this is when Intitiative becomes an ultraimportant stat in a given combat system: that is a symptom of the fact that the one to take his first turn in combat will do so much damage that the combat is effectively ended before the second actor has a chance to respond. This has, more often than not, been the case with combat encounters for me post level 10 or so in Underrail. Another example would be playing with Line of Sight - you do this to avoid interacting with combat at all. Playing with Line of Sight means you're effectively reducing combat to your own actions, because enemies never get any. It's like you have the ability to cast Time Stop, which enemies do not.

My perspective might change once I play a melee build - a disclaimer I've made before - but it certainly seems that vast parts of the community, fans included, share my view that CON 3 is orders of magnitude more effective than the alternatives. They might not extend this viewpoint into the criticism I'm making, but I'd like a response to this criticism. There are a great many fun aspects to this game's combat that simply get removed due to the extreme lethality of it.

A good example is the dichotomy of my praise of enemy design and criticism of the nuances of combat, because it highlights what I'm talking about: if you play efficiently you entirely avoid the highs of enemy design: you never get a rock thrown at you, never get poisoned by a Death Stalker, you never get dopplegangered by an enemy psionic, never experience a souped up psi beetle group unleash their most powerful abilities, because either you kill these enemies before that happens or you die yourself. There's no gradual exchange with these mechanics.

Again, I might actually be surprised that all these things do not hold true once I play a melee build and that it has exactly the kind of actually interesting series of ebbs and flows I'm talking about. But even if it does, it's a shame that it is more efficient to simply waive the entirety of it and one-shot everything.

And again, this is all a bit premature, so I look forward to hearing your final thoughts, especially regarding the very end of the game heheh.

I shall return with a final report - but once again, quests I've missed potentially being fantastic doesn't suddenly cause me to reneg on the points of criticism I have for what I've been exposed to so far. And again, I'm not saying quests are bad, not at all. Some are great, and the worst amount to nothing worse than you'd experience in most other good RPGs.

 

[Trashos]

Yes, players who go in blind are bound to miss the best quests. I missed them too initially. But I think we shouldn't be telling him that now, let him enjoy what he is playing. I think we should tell him when his playthrough is done. (On the other hand, this fact is going to make his 2nd playthrough all that more exciting!)

Childish writing: Well, at Camp Hathor we have the... romantic moment between Sarine and her boyfriend. That was a bit of childish fun there. But, like I said, it is a very big game. On the other hand, there is the legit interesting "date" with Vivian in the JKK questline (for those who choose JKK) that fixed the bad taste for me. Ngl, I would date Vivian.

 

[ItsChon]

I've explained the contradiction you perceive - twice in fact, once before your post and then again in response to yours - yet you still respond as if I hadn't.

So just to double check, your explanation is this below right?

I think that the reigning overwhelming community favoring of glass cannon builds (as you'll see on both the Discord and the forums) stems from the fact that it is both infinitely more effective and easier to blow everything up in one or two turns than to engage in the mechanics of combat, because defenses are not well suited to keep you alive on Dom. This is similar to how D&D 3.5 and similar systems work, where defense is so inferior to offense that it breaks the combat - because rather than an ebb and flow of the mechanics, it comes down to who kills the other party quick enough to avoid interacting with it entirely.

The best example of this is when Intitiative becomes an ultraimportant stat in a given combat system: that is a symptom of the fact that the one to take his first turn in combat will do so much damage that the combat is effectively ended before the second actor has a chance to respond. This has, more often than not, been the case with combat encounters for me post level 10 or so in Underrail.

My perspective might change once I play a melee build - a disclaimer I've made before - but it certainly seems that vast parts of the community, fans included, share my view that CON 3 is orders of magnitude more effective than the alternatives. They might not extend this viewpoint into the criticism I'm making, but I'd like a response to this criticism. There are a great many fun aspects to this game's combat that simply get removed due to the extreme lethality of it.

A good example is the dichotomy of my praise of enemy design and criticism of the nuances of combat, because it highlights what I'm talking about: if you play efficiently you entirely avoid the highs of enemy design: you never get a rock thrown at you, never get poisoned by a Death Stalker, you never get dopplegangered by an enemy psionic, never experience a souped up psi beetle group unleash their most powerful abilities, because either you kill these enemies before that happens or you die yourself. There's no gradual exchange with these mechanics.

Again, I might actually be surprised that all these things do not hold true once I play a melee build and that it has exactly the kind of actually interesting series of ebbs and flows I'm talking about. But even if it does, it's a shame that it is more efficient to simply waive the entirety of it and one-shot everything.

Assuming it is, here's my response.

I think that the reigning overwhelming community favoring of glass cannon builds (as you'll see on both the Discord and the forums) stems from the fact that it is both infinitely more effective and easier to blow everything up in one or two turns than to engage in the mechanics of combat, because defenses are not well suited to keep you alive on Dom. This is similar to how D&D 3.5 and similar systems work, where defense is so inferior to offense that it breaks the combat - because rather than an ebb and flow of the mechanics, it comes down to who kills the other party quick enough to avoid interacting with it entirely.

While offense is more effective/easier than defense, that doesn't mean defense doesn't work well and can't be used to beat the entire game. I can understand someone making the argument that the imbalance between offense versus defense is a flaw in the combat system, though I personally wouldn't agree.

The best example of this is when Intitiative becomes an ultraimportant stat in a given combat system: that is a symptom of the fact that the one to take his first turn in combat will do so much damage that the combat is effectively ended before the second actor has a chance to respond. This has, more often than not, been the case with combat encounters for me post level 10 or so in Underrail.

Initiative can be completely circumvented outside of arena as you can choose when to start combat, but I get your point about how going first is critical in a lot of encounters. But once again, being a tank allows you to go go second and still be alive, so I don't understand how you can claim that offense blows defense out of the fucking water when you can tank multiple turns of damage and still stay alive long enough to beat an encounter?

My perspective might change once I play a melee build

I assume you mean tank build right? As there are glass cannon melee builds, and tanky ranged builds.

But it certainly seems that vast parts of the community, fans included, share my view that CON 3 is orders of magnitude more effective than the alternatives. They might not extend this viewpoint into the criticism I'm making, but I'd like a response to this criticism. There are a great many fun aspects to this game's combat that simply get removed due to the extreme lethality of it.

To be clear, your criticism is that offense is so powerful, that allowing someone to go first means they will do lethal damage to you, so you must avoid getting hit at all, which in turn takes away from some of the nuance and greatness of the different mechanics behind enemy variety. But if you play a tank, you can let someone go first, and they won't be able to kill you, so you will get to play around these mechanics. Doesn't that answer your criticism?

A good example is the dichotomy of my praise of enemy design and criticism of the nuances of combat, because it highlights what I'm talking about: if you play efficiently you entirely avoid the highs of enemy design: you never get a rock thrown at you, never get poisoned by a Death Stalker, you never get dopplegangered by an enemy psionic, never experience a souped up psi beetle group unleash their most powerful abilities, because either you kill these enemies before that happens or you die yourself. There's no gradual exchange with these mechanics.

As a glass cannon build, there isn't. As a tank there is.

 

[gurugeorge]

Maybe I'm just not understanding the point you're trying to make

I think that the reigning overwhelming community favoring of glass cannon builds (as you'll see on both the Discord and the forums) stems from the fact that it is both infinitely more effective and easier to blow everything up in one or two turns than to engage in the mechanics of combat, because defenses are not well suited to keep you alive on Dom. This is similar to how D&D 3.5 and similar systems work, where defense is so inferior to offense that it breaks the combat - because rather than an ebb and flow of the mechanics, it comes down to who kills the other party quick enough to avoid interacting with it entirely.

Has there ever, ever been a game that avoids this type of scenario though? It's why I hardly ever bother with max difficulty on games - you're inevitably funneled down to a few effective builds, and while discovering those builds might be fun, once they're discovered it's all a bit pointless.

What you want from combat is a sweet spot where it goes on long enough for there to be some ebb and flow, some possibility of losing that you just keep at bay, and for you to be able to experience all the tricks the enemy has to offer, and to try out some of your own toys - but not so long as to drag on and on.

Very difficult to design, I should think, and frankly, most designers seem to fail at it most of the time. It might actually be the very kernel, the very nub of good game design, that very few people have a nose for.

People usually think of it in terms of "good encounter design," but that's only a part of it - it's like that model type of "good encounter" requires the whole game, all the numerical values of things, the aesthetics, everything, even the sense of progression, to be centered on that ideal experience.

 

[Abu Antar]

Shops is one of the things that annoyed me with Underrail, and I hope they get change in future Underrail games.

 

[Grunker]

I can understand someone making the argument that the imbalance between offense versus defense is a flaw in the combat system, though I personally wouldn't agree.

Why? Why should a perfectly normal build (i.e. not one abusing the game's mechanics, which is not what we're talking about here) avoid the game's mechanics? Or rather, why is this good design in your opinion?

I don't understand how you can claim that offense blows defense out of the fucking water when you can tank multiple turns of damage and still stay alive long enough to beat an encounter?

Because enemies cannot. I can clear an entire room of them without them getting a chance to offer any resistance.

I assume you mean tank build right?

Yes, forgive the confusion.

Doesn't that answer your criticism?

I don't see how it does. Your best defense against my criticism so far seems to be "play a lesser build". Again, I don't feel I'm exploiting the game here. I'm not spamming traps every, kiting into death zones or anything similar. I just have a pistol and feats that go with pistols. I'm not even playing a Versatility build which you might be able to argue as somewhat cheesey.

As a glass cannon build, there isn't. As a tank there is.

Which is why I am constantly making the disclaimer I am making - but the point is, that even *with* that disclaimer, it just means that the build path I've chosen is uninteresting. So your best response so far is, if I understand your argument: "Yes, you are correct, the combat has the problems you are describing with good high damage builds. However if you play a build that deals less damage, you will not have these problems, and you will experience combats lasting more turns and having more mechanical interaction."

If that is true then that's good, but it doesn't negate the criticism of this aspect of the game's combat, it just means it's not valid for the entirety of the combat system.

Also, I imagine we'll come back to this discussion once I've played a tank build. Because even such a build, I imagine, will have trouble with a lot of the combat mechanics that can make it suffer from these issues. In fact I get the strong feeling that this is exactly why the community seems to favour these high damage, CON 3 builds: that the lethality is simply so high that even tanky builds can be very, very short-lived if hit a couple of times.

Again though, I am obviously reserving judgment of this aspect!