World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Vaarna_Aarne]

True Faith: Weaponized Autism.

 

[Luckmann]

and not because anything actually protects you, but because what you believe becomes reality in the face of a vampire

yes, because true faith has consensus altering power
True Faith is absurdly powerful and generally only NPCs ever have it, not PCs.

I think that is the best way to describe it succinctly; "True Faith has consensus-altering power". And for those that know absolutely nothing about World of Darkness (and I mean this not no denigrating way whatsoever), World of Darkness is a "consensus-based reality", which is why mages are able to alter the currents. Most normies are just adrift in this flow of reality, but everyone can nudge it a little by their beliefs; if enough people would believe that vaccines cause autism, congratulations, vaccines are going to start causing autism.

People of True Faith, however, seem to be able to override this to some degree, in some manners, without even realizing it. While it's never explained exactly how or why this happens, my own theory is that they anchor themselves in the flow, or exert some form of instinctive direct control, like spergs with retard-strength or femoids that rip doors from cars unaware of how it fucks their body, and essentially swim against the current if necessary. This is what I meant earlier with them achieving a form of semi-Awakening, except it's faith-based rather than a genuine understanding of the forces of the reality.

 

[Delterius]

True Faith has consensus-altering power

Not necessarily. Most magic skirts within the extremes of consensus, even at times of technocratic supremacy. That is what sorcery / hedge wizardry / linear magic is described as. Assuming that true faith is some kind of ignorant savant isn't that much of a stretch either, its what Mages believe after all.

 

[Sacred82]

and not because anything actually protects you, but because what you believe becomes reality in the face of a vampire

yes, because true faith has consensus altering power
True Faith is absurdly powerful and generally only NPCs ever have it, not PCs.

I think that is the best way to describe it succinctly; "True Faith has consensus-altering power". And for those that know absolutely nothing about World of Darkness (and I mean this not no denigrating way whatsoever), World of Darkness is a "consensus-based reality", which is why mages are able to alter the currents. Most normies are just adrift in this flow of reality, but everyone can nudge it a little by their beliefs; if enough people would believe that vaccines cause autism, congratulations, vaccines are going to start causing autism.

So uhm... my True Faith acts as a mind control power on a vampire (the fucker starts believing he can't hurt me), or I literally alter the makeup of the vampire so he can't hurt me (whatever makes the vampire a vampire is suppressed in the face of my True Faith)?

 

[Trans-Financial-Man]

In the novel series Tome of Bill there's this really autistic toy collector who's faith in the resell value of his G1 Optimus Prime turns it into a weapon of faith similar in many ways to how True Faith works in VTM.

Yeah, and in Jim Butcher's "Dresden Files" a Star Wars fan creates a lightsaber out of a destroyed magical sword, but then I think Jedi is accepted as a religion in the US anyway ! Also a lightsaber is a magical weapon so there is a connection. I don't see anything special about an Optimus Prime toy except maybe the vampire is so stunned, that he buys it to play with it and forgets about eating the collector .

The character's faith in the resell value of G1 Optimus Prime turns it into a vampire repellent like a cross would be. It's just much more convenient to say Faith matters more than religion because even within a fairly uniform religion people have their own personal beliefs. And anything more gets really messy and autistic. Like most conversations on religion.

 

[J1M]

Is non-religions True Faith essentially just a mage spell?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Is non-religions True Faith essentially just a mage spell?

More likely it's the other way around

 

[Riddler]

and not because anything actually protects you, but because what you believe becomes reality in the face of a vampire

yes, because true faith has consensus altering power
True Faith is absurdly powerful and generally only NPCs ever have it, not PCs.

I think that is the best way to describe it succinctly; "True Faith has consensus-altering power". And for those that know absolutely nothing about World of Darkness (and I mean this not no denigrating way whatsoever), World of Darkness is a "consensus-based reality", which is why mages are able to alter the currents. Most normies are just adrift in this flow of reality, but everyone can nudge it a little by their beliefs; if enough people would believe that vaccines cause autism, congratulations, vaccines are going to start causing autism.

People of True Faith, however, seem to be able to override this to some degree, in some manners, without even realizing it. While it's never explained exactly how or why this happens, my own theory is that they anchor themselves in the flow, or exert some form of instinctive direct control, like spergs with retard-strength or femoids that rip doors from cars unaware of how it fucks their body, and essentially swim against the current if necessary. This is what I meant earlier with them achieving a form of semi-Awakening, except it's faith-based rather than a genuine understanding of the forces of the reality.

Why does it only apply to supernaturals then? You should be able to disbelieve or force back anyone or anything.

It seems to me that the whole mechanic is a incoherent mess because they wanted to be inclusive after granting priests some faith based powers.

 

[Prime Junta]

It seems to me that the whole mechanic is a incoherent mess because they wanted to be inclusive after granting priests some faith based powers.

It's not really a mechanic. It's a deus ex machina power for the storyteller to use in order to inject tension where needed. That shit needs a rationalisation of some kind to maintain the illusion of playing a "fair" rules-based game, and this is as good as any.

 

[Wesp5]

Why does it only apply to supernaturals then? You should be able to disbelieve or force back anyone or anything.

Exactly. This Optimus Prime should repell anyone because the guy believes in it which makes no sense at all! On the other hand a religious symbol could have an effect because the vampire knows that he is the descendant from a person cursed by a god.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It seems to me that the whole mechanic is a incoherent mess because they wanted to be inclusive after granting priests some faith based powers.

It's not really a mechanic. It's a deus ex machina power for the storyteller to use in order to inject tension where needed. That shit needs a rationalisation of some kind to maintain the illusion of playing a "fair" rules-based game, and this is as good as any.

It was a good mechanic when it was obviously meant for extremely devout christians to BTFO vampires

 

[Prime Junta]

I'm not giving up on my materialist vampirebusters.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

[Comrade K senses a terrifying presence.]

I whip out my little red book.

[A vampire appears from the shadows, its fangs glistening in the moonlight.]

I laugh. "You would challenge the immortal science of Marxism-Leninism, you bourgeois parasite? Know that History is on my side."

[The Vampire scoffs: "that is no true faith!" He takes a step forward, then another.]

I open my little red book, Quotations from Chairman Mao Tse-Tung, a true hero of the people.

"An army of the people is invincible," I shout. "Politics is war without blood, while war is politics with blood... A people's insurrection and a people's revolution are not only natural but inevitable... The revolutionary among the people is like a fish in the ocean!"

[The Vampire takes another step, but its movements are labored as though it pushes against an invisible force.]

My voice rising, I continue: "Be resolute, fear no sacrifice and surmount every difficulty to win victory... Political power grows out of the barrel of the gun... A revolution is not a dinner party!"

[The Vampire is now frozen in place. He appears puzzled.]

As my true faith in dialectical materialism shines like a beacon, I laugh with joy. “Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy.”

[The Vampire shudders]

“Once all struggle is grasped, miracles are possible.”

[The Vampire takes a step backwards, then another. Its pain is palpable.]

I roar: "Thousands upon thousands of martyrs have heroically laid down their lives for the people; let us hold their banner high and march ahead along the path crimson with their blood!"

[Enraged but also terrified, the Vampire continues backing away, though it is not yet ready to concede defeat to a puny mortal.]

"I didn't want to do this. I'm not a cruel man. But you leave me no choice." I reach into my backpack and pull out several thick volumes: Marx, Engels, Kautsky. I'm prepared for a long night.

"All right you imperialist dog," I snarl. "Are you ready to learn some theory?"

Before the Vampire can respond, I begin reading aloud: "when the limited bourgeois form is stripped away, what is wealth other than the universality of human needs, capacities, pleasures, productive forces etc., created through universal exchange? The full development of human mastery over the forces of nature, those of so-called nature as well as of humanity’s own nature? The absolute working-out of his creative potentialities, with no presupposition other than the previous historic development, which makes this totality of development, i.e. the development of all human powers as such the end in itself, not as measured on a predetermined yardstick? Where he does not produce himself in one specificity, but produces his totality? Strives not to remain something he has become, but is in the absolute movement of becoming? In bourgeois economics – and in the epoch of production to which it corresponds – this complete working-out of the human content appears as a complete emptying-out, this universal objectification as total alienation, and the tearing-down of all limited, one-sided aims as sacrifice of the human end-in-itself to an entirely external end."

[By the time Comrade K looks up from Marx's Grundrisse, the Vampire is long gone.]

 

[Prime Junta]

I shed a tear.

 

[Sykar]

True Faith: Weaponized Autism.

Autistic satanists:

 

[Luckmann]

Why does it only apply to supernaturals then? You should be able to disbelieve or force back anyone or anything.

It seems to me that the whole mechanic is a incoherent mess because they wanted to be inclusive after granting priests some faith based powers.

Because supernaturals also skirt the borders of reality and the consensus. Vampires and werewolves, for example, have been described as predators, fast and agile in the waters of reality, but still confined by the flow of belief. It is also possible that True Faith only manifests in supernatural contexts because it contextualizes the power of faith in regards to the surrounding world. It is only in the face of the supernatural that the faith and it's supernatural expression becomes an expected necessity.

It should also be noted that while I don't think there are any rules for it, other aspects of "true faith" absolutely do "exist" in the narrative context of the World of Darkness. While by no means common, faith-healing and oracular abilities do manifest and are part of some stories and/or hinted at in others.

Addendum: Actually, never mind, as I was writing, I checked, and Mage: The Ascension indeed does have rules for things like Faith Healing, Prophetic Visions, and even tur ing water into wine or removing poisons, just to list a few examples. So it' not just implied that True Faith goes beyond protection vs. the supernatural, it's explicit.

 

[Prime Junta]

The World of Darkness is serious business.

 

[Zer0wing]

>Marxism-Leninism
>Renegade Kautsky

'K

Spoiler

Kautsky has in a most unparalleled manner distorted the concept dictatorship of the proletariat, and has turned Marx into a common liberal; that is, he himself has sunk to the level of a liberal who utters banal phrases about “pure democracy,” embellishing and glossing over the class content of bourgeois democracy, and shrinking, above all, from the use of revolutionary violence by the oppressed class. By so “interpreting” the concept “revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat” as to expunge the revolutionary violence of the oppressed class against its oppressors, Kautsky has beaten the world record in the liberal distortion of Marx. The renegade Bernstein has proved to be a more puppy compared with the renegade Kautsky.

Also, I must ask local pseudocommies one trick question that will blow all "comrades" off - what does leninism have to do with marxism?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

and not because anything actually protects you, but because what you believe becomes reality in the face of a vampire

yes, because true faith has consensus altering power
True Faith is absurdly powerful and generally only NPCs ever have it, not PCs.

I think that is the best way to describe it succinctly; "True Faith has consensus-altering power". And for those that know absolutely nothing about World of Darkness (and I mean this not no denigrating way whatsoever), World of Darkness is a "consensus-based reality", which is why mages are able to alter the currents. Most normies are just adrift in this flow of reality, but everyone can nudge it a little by their beliefs; if enough people would believe that vaccines cause autism, congratulations, vaccines are going to start causing autism.

So uhm... my True Faith acts as a mind control power on a vampire (the fucker starts believing he can't hurt me), or I literally alter the makeup of the vampire so he can't hurt me (whatever makes the vampire a vampire is suppressed in the face of my True Faith)?

Well more like your conviction in your belief in the nature of the world allows a person to access the god-like divine spark within them to override "reality" itself (reality being subconsciously determined by other people and their divine sparks) and give themselves powers within the framework of that system of beliefs they have. Or in an interpretation that doesn't account for Mage, your conviction in your belief in the nature of the world manifests itself as a power that affects reality, again within the framework of the user's system of beliefs. The vampire is neither made to believe anything or altered, it is just the power of True Faith.

This should do a bit to also explain why True Faith is no mere "take a level in Cleric" sort of shit, but a major deus ex machina. Even the first two levels are vanishingly rare, even if in theory ANYONE could develop True Faith. It requires a certain kind of unique experience and rigid personal vision of the natural order (and most likely more than a dash of madness) to make a person access their divine spark through will alone. So you have cases like Ferox, who is a Gargoyle with True Faith *nine* which instantly makes him one of the most potentially dangerous beings in World of Darkness (as far as the Camarilla is/was concerned, one of the only thirteen Red List vampires with strict kill-on-sight-with-any-means-necessary policy, tho he seems to have lost his street cred in V20) but also batshit insane (since as mentioned earlier, this guy doesn't even believe he's a vampire).

 

[Sacred82]

and not because anything actually protects you, but because what you believe becomes reality in the face of a vampire

yes, because true faith has consensus altering power
True Faith is absurdly powerful and generally only NPCs ever have it, not PCs.

I think that is the best way to describe it succinctly; "True Faith has consensus-altering power". And for those that know absolutely nothing about World of Darkness (and I mean this not no denigrating way whatsoever), World of Darkness is a "consensus-based reality", which is why mages are able to alter the currents. Most normies are just adrift in this flow of reality, but everyone can nudge it a little by their beliefs; if enough people would believe that vaccines cause autism, congratulations, vaccines are going to start causing autism.

So uhm... my True Faith acts as a mind control power on a vampire (the fucker starts believing he can't hurt me), or I literally alter the makeup of the vampire so he can't hurt me (whatever makes the vampire a vampire is suppressed in the face of my True Faith)?

Well more like your conviction in your belief in the nature of the world allows a person to access the god-like divine spark within them to override "reality" itself (reality being subconsciously determined by other people and their divine sparks) and give themselves powers within the framework of that system of beliefs they have. Or in an interpretation that doesn't account for Mage, your conviction in your belief in the nature of the world manifests itself as a power that affects reality, again within the framework of the user's system of beliefs. The vampire is neither made to believe anything or altered, it is just the power of True Faith.

yeah yeah, I alter reality, that much has been brought across.

And I've already cited the three possibilities there are:

1.) my True Faith somehow makes me vampire-proof, literally, because I'm altering reality. Maybe my skin turns to iron (at least where vampires are concerned?) or I smell to them like a clove of garlic, whatever

2.) my True Faith persuades the vampire via mind control that I'm invincible and that there's no use for him to try and attack/ bite me;

3.) my True Faith makes the vampire not a vampire for the time being, by creating an anti-vampire magic zone around me

it must be one of those 3 things, so which is it?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

yeah yeah, I alter reality, that much has been brought across.

And I've already cited the three possibilities there are:

1.) my True Faith somehow makes me vampire-proof, literally, because I'm altering reality. Maybe my skin turns to iron (at least where vampires are concerned?) or I smell to them like a clove of garlic, whatever

2.) my True Faith persuades the vampire via mind control that I'm invincible and that there's no use for him to try and attack/ bite me;

3.) my True Faith makes the vampire not a vampire for the time being, by creating an anti-vampire magic zone around me

it must be one of those 3 things, so which is it?

None, it's 4) my True Faith repels the vampire and its powers.

 

[Rahdulan]

yeah yeah, I alter reality, that much has been brought across.

And I've already cited the three possibilities there are:

1.) my True Faith somehow makes me vampire-proof, literally, because I'm altering reality. Maybe my skin turns to iron (at least where vampires are concerned?) or I smell to them like a clove of garlic, whatever

2.) my True Faith persuades the vampire via mind control that I'm invincible and that there's no use for him to try and attack/ bite me;

3.) my True Faith makes the vampire not a vampire for the time being, by creating an anti-vampire magic zone around me

it must be one of those 3 things, so which is it?

We have a hard check list of what True Faith can do and how it affects supernaturals in WoD.
https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/True_Faith

You also have to take into account availability. Any ST who gives ranks or Miracles willy-nilly as power ups is asking for trouble. Not to mention dramatic license.

 

[Sacred82]

yeah yeah, I alter reality, that much has been brought across.

And I've already cited the three possibilities there are:

1.) my True Faith somehow makes me vampire-proof, literally, because I'm altering reality. Maybe my skin turns to iron (at least where vampires are concerned?) or I smell to them like a clove of garlic, whatever

2.) my True Faith persuades the vampire via mind control that I'm invincible and that there's no use for him to try and attack/ bite me;

3.) my True Faith makes the vampire not a vampire for the time being, by creating an anti-vampire magic zone around me

it must be one of those 3 things, so which is it?

None, it's 4) my True Faith repels the vampire and its powers.

in that case it's still either 1.) because I've become inedible or 3.) anti-vampire magic zone around me.

yeah yeah, I alter reality, that much has been brought across.

And I've already cited the three possibilities there are:

1.) my True Faith somehow makes me vampire-proof, literally, because I'm altering reality. Maybe my skin turns to iron (at least where vampires are concerned?) or I smell to them like a clove of garlic, whatever

2.) my True Faith persuades the vampire via mind control that I'm invincible and that there's no use for him to try and attack/ bite me;

3.) my True Faith makes the vampire not a vampire for the time being, by creating an anti-vampire magic zone around me

it must be one of those 3 things, so which is it?

We have a hard check list of what True Faith can do and how it affects supernaturals in WoD.
https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/True_Faith

You also have to take into account availability. Any ST who gives ranks or Miracles willy-nilly as power ups is asking for trouble. Not to mention dramatic license.

ok, so True Faith buys you:

1) trying to push the vampire back or sear their flesh if close

2) spending Faith points to protect yourself from mind control

3) sensing vampires nearby

4) not getting turned into ghoulash

5) causing fear in vampires

and this is brought about by altering reality. Yeah, definitely magic.

Causing someone's flesh to burn by altering reality is what we'd call magic, and it's not even attributed to a higher power.

 

[Vibalist]

Holy fuck guys. ten pages of this shit.

 

[Herumor]

This is what happens when there's nothing (new) about the actual video game to discuss. Consider now that there won't be anything of the sort until either E3 or Paradox Con. So that's ranging anywhere from 2 to 6 months more of this. Unless someone 'leaks' gameplay footage that the journalists were shown. Then we'd get some new stuff to talk about.