World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[toro]

First gameplay video will kill any excitement for this game

 

[J1M]

Gehenna is a boring and terrible plot device.

 

[thesheeep]

First gameplay video will kill any excitement for this game

But what if it only kills 50% of the excitement?

 

[Quillon]

First gameplay video will kill any excitement for this game

But what if it only kills 50% of the excitement?

Stand-in boobs character already killed 50% of my excitement

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Will the game be about Gehenna, though.

Tbh in PNP Vampire you always had the option of going it punk-rock, street warfare, or you could present some Elysiums and vampire society's upper echelon. Maybe both, depended on your tastes and the players' expectations.

In fact even the Sabbat were a bunch of lowlife thugs, but had their people of power.

The pnp always had kind of a problem that it had a *very* overbearing metaplot. Any look at the splats would make it clear that the street stuff is basically utterly irrelevant and the White Wolf standard in modules was that at the end the PCs get to watch an NPC do something important. Another aspect is that without enforcement you could never truly have a mechanical link to the street level because Generation 5-dot was basically mandatory background if you weren't deliberately gimping yourself or a very inattentive reader. That's one thing V5 is aiming to be an improvement on, both by culling the number of mega-NPCs, shaking the status quo in ways beyond just general imminent doom and gloom (as mentioned, there's a Second Inquisition going on, albeit I don't really like calling it that since it sounds kinda corny so I call it FIRSTLIGHT like the CIA/NSA secret joint operation calls itself), and by making it explicit that the default intent in basic book is for players to be 13th Gen or Thin-Blooded, while adding Blood Potency and redoing various other mechanics (Hunger incidentally is a p huge improvement to old manabar) to provide a power-scaling that's in the "relevant to players" end decoupled from Generation and works with greater degree of flexibility.

 

[Zombra]

First gameplay video will kill any excitement for this game

where is the "fabulously pessimistic" button

 

[Herumor]

(Also Lasombra are defecting to join the Camarilla)

Which I wouldn't mind as much if they'd just decided to hire a competent writer to handle the transition.

As it is, in the Chicago By Night blurb released on the OPP website, we see that for every Lasombra joining the Camarilla, an Elder Lasombra must be sacrificed. This doesn't sound like something anyone would ever agree to, let alone as a wholesale Clan. Amici Noctis agreeing to this would again make no sense, given that most of them are Elders. Taken the way the Lasombra were written as a stereotype in the past editions of Vampire, their shtick of being these edgy social Darwinists with focus on survival of the fittest and strongest, why would said strongest sacrifice themselves for the weaker ones?

And I'm still wondering why they're meshing together Obtenebration with Necromancy, making it into Oblivion - the signature discipline of the Lasombra as of V5. Why would the Lasombra ever bother with that?

The Abyss of Obtenebration has nothing to do with Wraith.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Well it's not exactly like that, it's not a matter of Camarilla asking things as a whole, it's individual domains being known to ask such terms and conditions. Thing is, Lasombra want to get out of Sabbat in large numbers due to the whole thing with Gehenna Crusade, Sabbat leaning even harder on Tzimisce end of embrace the Beast screw Humanity spectrum, and Sabbat in general being much more prone to drawing in Second Inquisition attention that they are feeling it's about time to get out while the getting is good.

The bit itself really makes sense, Camarilla knows they have the edge in the bargaining and they want the harsh terms to weed out those who defect to just the ones they really want, but it's not like the Lasombra in the blurb are just taking it straight, they're already considering how they can play the angles on even that hardest term some Domains want (especially since as they say, they want in on those ones making the hard demands, the strongest and most influential Camarilla domains, they don't want to rub elbows with a place where half the locals are Anarch riff-raff), sacrificing elders. And an important thing to remember there is that being an elder doesn't quite necessarily mean that you are the strongest or the fittest, or that you ever were. Or even an elder in the first place, it's not like there are ways to verify this for certain (that's literally the veiled suggestion made at the end of the letter, that "hey, don't you have some childer you can just throw in as an 'elder'").

For those curious, the preview blurb in regard, The Deal:

Spoiler

The Deal
Malenkov

I know it grates the balls of one such as yourself to consider bending to the Cam, but it’s time to face facts: we need to take it like a trooper just this once or prepare for a permanent filleting. I know which option I favor.

There’s word the Amici Noctis reached out to trusted Keepers, those with reputations for clan over sect loyalty, and the Friends arranged diplomatic missions by these same Keepers to the Anarchs and the Camarilla. At first these representatives are to make solitary offerings of fealty to the Ivory Tower, before petitioning for the entry of the entire clan.

I know what you’re thinking, and I thought the same. The act is going to be far from easy, but get this: some domains are accepting Lasombra “refugees” in exchange for the sacrifice of Lasombra the Camarilla’s Princes deem “unsuitable.”

So understand: we sacrifice our pawns to stand alongside the Camarilla’s kings and queens. In this case, our pawns refer to any Sabbat unprepared or unable to abandon monstrosity or maintain the Masquerade. The Camarilla want those anxious to defect, not those who might cause trouble.

I suspect at least half the Lasombra will remain in the Sabbat, but will lack central authority or direction if the Amici Noctis is going full Ivory Tower. Those of us who held titles of Archbishop in the Sabbat, now attempt to do so in the Camarilla, bringing with us our manipulation of the Catholic Church. Any Lasombra ranked Cardinal are put to the torch as a gesture of good faith. Ironic, I suppose.

Few Kindred will trust us, for our betrayal of the Sabbat highlights fickle loyalties, or so the Degenerates say. The Camarilla will however value our clan’s power, ruthlessness, and sphere of mortal influence. The Ventrue despise having to contest praxis with ancient enemies, just as the Toreador loathe sharing roles in Elysium with we latecomers. Despite this, and due to the close eye all clans keep on us in their domains, it seems we Lasombra may yet make tenuous allies of the Camarilla.

I’m not done though, and neither will the Camarilla be. They’ll push and push to see what they can get out of us, and they’re already doing so in a few domains I’ve heard of. The weak cities, the ones who lost half their Kindred population to the Anarchs, they’re the ones saying we just need to deliver the staked bodies of Sabbat troublemakers, Lasombra or not. The conservative domains? The ones we want to get in on? They’ve been known to ask for the following:

• For every Lasombra joining the Camarilla, an elder Lasombra must be presented as sacrifice.
• Lasombra intending on joining the Camarilla must submit to a Blood Bond.
• A maximum of three Lasombra may exist in any one Camarilla domain.
• Lasombra are to receive no warnings regarding the Traditions; just punishment.
• The practice of our particular brand of blood arts is forbidden on pain of final death.
• No Lasombra may hold title in Camarilla domains for at least 50 years.

I could go on. The Camarilla love this new power they have over us.

I say let them. The only deal of the above that troubles me is the talk of our murdering elders to appease our new “allies.” Are the Amici Noctis really going to go for that? How long before we come for them, in that case?

Interesting nights, Mal. I hope we both survive to see the end of this turbulent period, though don’t be surprised if someone labels you a “troublemaker” for being such an infamous war criminal in the Sabbat-Camarilla wars, or an elder ripe for sacrifice. After all, don’t you have childer and younger siblings?

T. Fisk

Basically, they're going to give Camarilla a deal with a bunch of "Cardinals" and "war criminals", hand-picked by the new loyal Camarilla social climbers (it's that social darwinism in action, dog-eat-dog and those who play the game the best come out on top in the Clan, and as far as they are concerned later in the Camarilla). I actually rather like this, another thing that's been kind of missing with Cam is that there isn't a Clan that actively wants to be Ventrue instead of the Ventrue. Adds a nice touch of high-class powerbroker infighting on a Clan level. EDIT: Ideally I would be quite happy with Giovanni hopping in Camarilla too for a nice little Mexican stand-off on who gets to sit at the top of the Ivory Tower.

 

[Herumor]

another thing that's been kind of missing with Cam is that there isn't a Clan that actively wants to be Ventrue instead of the Ventrue.

I'm fairly certain the Tremere at one point were aiming exactly for that, even if they weren't 100% focused on that. Think it might be mentioned in the revised edition of their clanbook.

 

[toro]

First gameplay video will kill any excitement for this game

where is the "fabulously pessimistic" button

Honestly I don't understand how people can expect anything good from Brian Mitsoda - wearing those gloves makes him look like a clown and insecure as fuck.

His last game Dead State was a borefest ... but tbh he did advertise the game as inducing a dead state.

Also that studio is not ready for prime-time: I've played Blacklight (their first game) for a couple of hours and it was completely uninspired and boring. Also ridden with microtransactions.

Then you have stuff like this:

Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines 2 Takes a Firm Political Stance, LGBT & Mental Illness Representation

The demo that press got their hands on featured two different character creators - one that allowed them to craft a protagonist to their liking, while the second focused on the more vampiric side of things. "Body type, gender pronouns, employment history, and fashion can all be toyed with for a very modular build." In another preview, Rock Paper Shotgun states that you can pick pronouns separate from your body type.

Finally, in an interview with Kotaku, lead writer Brian Mitsoda states that the team has to adjust its perspective following the 15 years since the original. “We have to be very sensitive about how we handle things like mental illness and that was a concern for us and for Paradox, in how we can make a mature story but if we do anything, we do our homework and make sure that we are punching up and not punching down.”

Look like the planets aligned for this game: a shovelware developer, a has been narrative designer, a publisher thirsty for DLCs and a story focused on SJW sensibilities.

Maybe I'm "fabulously pessimistic" (and half drunk) but at least I'm not delusional to believe that the combination above will produce anything ground breaking.

There is a reason why they delay showing any gameplay footage. But hey, maybe they pull off a Kingmaker.

 

[Herumor]

The trailer for the clan reveal scheduled for tomorrow got out, it's Tremere.

Link for those interested.

 

[Theldaran]

Will the game be about Gehenna, though.

Tbh in PNP Vampire you always had the option of going it punk-rock, street warfare, or you could present some Elysiums and vampire society's upper echelon. Maybe both, depended on your tastes and the players' expectations.

In fact even the Sabbat were a bunch of lowlife thugs, but had their people of power.

The pnp always had kind of a problem that it had a *very* overbearing metaplot. Any look at the splats would make it clear that the street stuff is basically utterly irrelevant and the White Wolf standard in modules was that at the end the PCs get to watch an NPC do something important. Another aspect is that without enforcement you could never truly have a mechanical link to the street level because Generation 5-dot was basically mandatory background if you weren't deliberately gimping yourself or a very inattentive reader. That's one thing V5 is aiming to be an improvement on, both by culling the number of mega-NPCs, shaking the status quo in ways beyond just general imminent doom and gloom (as mentioned, there's a Second Inquisition going on, albeit I don't really like calling it that since it sounds kinda corny so I call it FIRSTLIGHT like the CIA/NSA secret joint operation calls itself), and by making it explicit that the default intent in basic book is for players to be 13th Gen or Thin-Blooded, while adding Blood Potency and redoing various other mechanics (Hunger incidentally is a p huge improvement to old manabar) to provide a power-scaling that's in the "relevant to players" end decoupled from Generation and works with greater degree of flexibility.

Indeed. Vampire 1st edition tried to be "a game of personal horror", and that motto was advertised to death. As for Rein-Hagen, it seems he or some other creator liked gangs. The thing is, streetpunk vampires are the scum of vampire society. Like you said, getting into power positions, diableriesing some unsuspecting foes, and furthering your agenda was the core. I mean, you could run into some thugs once or twice, but by the very mechanic you should be ascending to Ancient-level and not stay a thug forever. So, the game was ill-suited to accomodate some of its main themes... not to mention the people who just ran it like some D&D slaughterfest... WW even jested about this making Tremere be looked at in-game like "D&D wizards".

 

[jungl]

I had more fun with blacklight then all these battle royale fps. I always found battle royale fps games boring. It doesn't help its the gacha cancer of fps games.

 

[Jenkem]

LOL the footage of the Tremere exploding someone looks even worse than the earthquake shit from last week

 

[HansDampf]

 

[Prime Junta]

looks painful

 

[Storyfag]

Sabbat will probably show up too (at least in reference), and probably make retroactively more sense for original Bloodlines (then again, Sabbat has always been super-hard to do because of how many variables have been at work if you try to do more than Shovelheads And Tzimisce style bad guy posse like in Bloodlines) since they operate more like a vampire terrorist organization in V5 when they stopped trying to hold territory and instead go underground (this of course doesn't mean former Sabbat territories aren't very much dangerous no-man's-lands because while they aren't openly holding domain anymore they are still around in the shadows) or go to the Middle-East and North Africa to fight in the Gehenna Crusade they are going to mount against the Antediluvians after they kill and diablerize every Methuselah they can find. (Also Lasombra are defecting to join the Camarilla)

 

[HansDampf]

First gameplay video will kill any excitement for this game

where is the "fabulously pessimistic" button

Honestly I don't understand how people can expect anything good from Brian Mitsoda - wearing those gloves makes him look like a clown and insecure as fuck.

His last game Dead State was a borefest ... but tbh he did advertise the game as inducing a dead state.

Also that studio is not ready for prime-time: I've played Blacklight (their first game) for a couple of hours and it was completely uninspired and boring. Also ridden with microtransactions.

Then you have stuff like this:

Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines 2 Takes a Firm Political Stance, LGBT & Mental Illness Representation

The demo that press got their hands on featured two different character creators - one that allowed them to craft a protagonist to their liking, while the second focused on the more vampiric side of things. "Body type, gender pronouns, employment history, and fashion can all be toyed with for a very modular build." In another preview, Rock Paper Shotgun states that you can pick pronouns separate from your body type.

Finally, in an interview with Kotaku, lead writer Brian Mitsoda states that the team has to adjust its perspective following the 15 years since the original. “We have to be very sensitive about how we handle things like mental illness and that was a concern for us and for Paradox, in how we can make a mature story but if we do anything, we do our homework and make sure that we are punching up and not punching down.”

Look like the planets aligned for this game: a shovelware developer, a has been narrative designer, a publisher thirsty for DLCs and a story focused on SJW sensibilities.

Maybe I'm "fabulously pessimistic" (and half drunk) but at least I'm not delusional to believe that the combination above will produce anything ground breaking.

There is a reason why they delay showing any gameplay footage. But hey, maybe they pull off a Kingmaker.

I'm also losing my optimism as time passes, but just to keep things in perspective: The "firm political stance" is about "themes of art versus commerce and technological advances versus tradition." Not what people would first think of when they read those headlines. And the gender pronouns could be a marketing tool to make more people talk about the game, and to get pushed by game journalists. They probably won't affect anything in the game, and will just be part of your name on your character sheet. Like you could name your character in VtMB, and it never comes up in the game.

 

[Jenkem]

The gender options are Male / Female / Swedish

 

[Cael]

The gender options are Male / Female / Swedish

Male / Female / WTFLOL!

 

[Space Satan]

Finally we'll have a vampire we can relate to

 

[Cael]

Finally we'll have a vampire we can relate to

What I'd like to know is which kinked out psycho Embraced that???

 

[Zer0wing]

'K we all know the other two clans to be revealed at this and the next week are Tremere and Ventrue. This pretty much covers the Warrior/Mage/Thief-smoothtalker trio. A better question is, what are the other two then? Gangrel and Toreador are less costly to make than both Nosferatu and Malkavian (for level designers and Brian Mitsoda himself respectively as they basically require a second game within base game to be made) but seem too redundant (and too emphasize Toris subtleties one must be the 2nd Troika no less) gameplay wise.

 

[Prime Junta]

'K we all know the other two clans to be revealed at this and the next week are Tremere and Ventrue. This pretty much covers the Warrior/Mage/Thief-smoothtalker trio. A better question is, what are the other two then? Gangrel and Toreador are less costly to make than both Nosferatu and Malkavian (for level designers and Brian Mitsoda himself respectively as they basically require a second game within base game to be made) but seem too redundant (and too emphasize Toris subtleties one must be the 2nd Troika no less) gameplay wise.

Torrie because of course they will.

Gangrel to get the furry fanbase.

Nos and Malk for paid DLC.

 

[JDR13]

Nos and Malk for paid DLC.

Sadly, you're probably right about that.