World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Ismaul]

Oh come on, my gimmick

Wait a minute what is going on here?

A comma followed by a space?!

Who are you and what have you done to fantadomat's gimmick?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

There's a loose connection between Clan Disciplines and the Second Generation ancestry of a given Clan. This doesn't work out quite exactly however. In case of Celerity this is further complicated by the wibbly-wobbly status of Temporis in what's official and not, since someone at White Wolf didn't like ZA WARUDO and the entire True Brujah was retconned. Then again, not like a PC was ever going to get the chance to use ZA WARUDO, since it was another example of White Wolf's prolific "fuck you players this is for our precious GMPCs only!" problem.

If you want the real explanation, it's because Toreadors are the Anne Rice vampires, and those twinks codified the whole super-fast vampire thing.

Why do Toreador have a high speed ability though? Obsessive artists and aestheticians being super fast doesn't sound that intuitive to me. Can someone explain this setting-/lore-/rp-wise to a non-expert?

No idea why, but they've always had celerity (the bullet time super speed power) as far as I know. The other original celerity clan was the Brujah who are the philosopher guys. There's probably some dumb lore explanation for everything but I think ultimately it was just so the arty talky clans would be able to actually contribute if a fight broke out without being too overpowered. They can take a lot of actions in order to make up for their inability to really do too much with them.

They have auspex so they're good with guns even without celerity, at least in bloodlines.

Auspex doesn't provide any direct benefit for guns in PnP (unless one counts negation of things like very low lighting as the benefit), until V5 where as I mentioned there's an amalgam ability for Celerity and Auspex (Celerity 4/Auspex 2, so it's far more in the former). EDIT: Although I suppose before V5 changes to damage and health systems you could also use Auspex 2 to be able to know when you might as well throw the gun away since you aren't shooting at a puny human. I suppose it's a improvement to guns since it lets you know when not to waste bullets shooting at vampires?

 

[Zer0wing]

Those who concerned about thinned and generalized discipline pool, it's not just VTMB2s thing. The whole VtM V5 is like that. Tremere's thaumaturgy is thinned to blood sorcery, which is free for the taken now. We wuz kangz Setites lost serpentis, assamites lost quietus, lasombra lost obtenebration.
And yet, devs wave off the V5.

 

[fantadomat]

Oh come on, my gimmick

Wait a minute what is going on here?

A comma followed by a space?!

Who are you and what have you done to fantadomat's gimmick?

I see that you too are in need of upgrading your version.....pink bag of mostly water.

 

[True Ukrainian]

The streamlining is actually a good thing, especially for the Tremere. Some of the magic schools were super popular like Movement of the Mind and Path of Flames while others just sort of languished with no players wanting them. Cutting the fat is certainly welcome, though it can be argued that it went a bit too far.

 

[Goral]

New screenshot leaked:

Spoiler

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

The streamlining is actually a good thing, especially for the Tremere. Some of the magic schools were super popular like Movement of the Mind and Path of Flames while others just sort of languished with no players wanting them. Cutting the fat is certainly welcome, though it can be argued that it went a bit too far.

Also emphasises the often forgotten bit that IN THEORY it should always be Path of Blood that gets taught first, which is what Blood Sorcery starts at. But honestly, the question isn't really in streamlining or trimming down disciplines. It's in the focus being somewhere very different than rulesets. The V5 development was headed by former big-time LARPers, and it shows in the splat focus shifting dramatically to wordswordswords.

The core book is bretty gud (LARPer photos and lack of comics stylized art aside) and has a lot of great new or replaced systems, but the splats are clearly much more (much much more) let's say "content poor" than ye olde splats that White Wolf released as a flood, there's very little rules ( and instead lots and lots of wordswordswords. I'd say this is rather questionable given that I feel you need at least a 60/40 split between rules and wordswordswords for the price of admission, I'm not that interested in devs just jerking it to their setting. The V5 splat split between rules and wordswordswords is somewhere around 1/99, and I am not very happy about that. Thankfully it's fairly easy to just dive back and ransack the old catalogue due to how simple the Storyteller systems are; not like I'd use any ruleset as written anyway when I run a game.

That's probs again the takeaway I'd give to people: You are under no obligation to follow any ruleset or "canon" slavishly. Anything you don't like, change it.

EDIT: I have no tears for loss of Quietus tho, it was probably the dumbest discipline with Thanatosis as the runner-up.

 

[Orma]

Mitsoda?

 

[Mikeal]

One thing puzzle me, why Brian doens't have account on codex?

 

[Roguey]

One thing puzzle me, why Brian doens't have account on codex?

Why would he post here, we're awful. His crazy wife doesn't even like us anymore.

 

[RickOmbo]

By the way

 

[Infinitron]

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/20...lked-to-brian-mitsoda-on-the-new-clan-reveal/

Malkavians confirmed for Bloodlines 2: we talked to Brian Mitsoda on the new clan reveal

“I actually wish we had started with Malks,” said Brian Mitsoda, “Because honestly the number one thing I think people ask is, ‘Are malkavians in the game?’” I had a chat with Mitsoda, narrative lead on Vampire: The Masquerade — Bloodlines 2 and lead designer on the original Bloodlines, for the new Clan reveal. Yup, the Malkavians are back, baby. There will be comments.

If you’re not already a Vampire: The Masquerade fan, or indeed a Bloodlines fan, let me give you some context, because you need to know why the Malk is a hot little potato. Every vampire belongs to a Clan that was started by a very ancient vampire thousands of years ago, so every subsequent member of that Clan has, sort of, a bit of that original vampire in them. Like a family tree, but more direct and kind of yuckier. Each Clan has a thing: Toreador are flouncy art appreciators who feel closer to humanity; the Ventrue are, basically, the man (as in damn the man, eat the rich). The Malkavians’ thing is, insert scare quotes, insanity.

A moment to talk shop first. The Malks are the fifth full clan that will be in Bloodlines 2 from launch, the others being Brujah, Venture, Toreador and Tremere. If you’re thinking of joining the Malkavians, then you’ll get two shiny new abilities, neither of which are Masquerade violations.



“The Malkavians, I think first and foremost, they’re all about dementation. Dementation not only has dialogue implications, but of course it’s got combat applications, but not in the way that the Brujah might where it’s just very much direct damage,” Mitsoda said. “With the Malkavians it’s basically about sowing chaos.”

Dementation’s first effect is Haunt, which basically makes people run away. Levelled up, it can become Beserk, which makes the target attack anything nearby, or, failing something to attack, the air. Malkavians can also use Auspex, which allows you to use Aura Sense to see NPCs through walls, mark individuals and read their weaknesses. Levelled, Auspex provides Psychic Projection, letting you scout around in astral form (whilst also using Aura Sense). While projecting, you can sometimes overwhelm NPC senses with the power of your big sexy brain. Paradox are talking more about the Malks in a Twitch stream later today, 17:00 UK time, but we have an NPC image and teaser video embedded below.


The Malkavian NPC, clearly playing some kind of clout game.

Even in the tabletop game, the clan is the subject of some debate. There’s even a specific term, “fishmalk”, referring to the sort Malkavian whose player interprets the clan insanity as wackiness, as a kind of comic relief, as the sort of person who would talk lovingly to a dead fish — or perhaps hit you in the face with it and run away giggling.

“A lot of people do interpret the first game as being closer to the fishmalk interpretation,” said Mitsoda, “Just because of the way we were approaching the malks trying to make them different, they did sometimes have the options that were kind of funny.”

This links to the million dollar question, which is “Will playing as a Malkavian be a different experience with unique dialogue?” and yes, yes it will, in a similar way to the original Bloodlines. “Because it is the expectation,” said Mitsoda, “We cannot deviate from the expectation of what the Malkavian experience is.”





The Malkavian player character had moments like, perhaps most famously, having a shouting argument with a stop sign in the street, which is probably more on the fishmalk end of the scale. But they were also one of the most popular Clans because they had an entirely different set of dialogue to any other player character, and got different responses from NPCs. This was written (mostly by Mitsoda) towards the end of the production. He explained to me that the nature of development meant that would probably happen again on Bloodlines 2 because the Malkavian character is almost a reskin of the game, and it has to be mostly finished “before you do the Malkavian pass on it.”

The entirely different point of view is partly because Malkavians have what the game calls “insight”. They hear voices and know things about the future or other people, but not necessarily what those things mean. In the first Bloodlines, the Malkavian’s dialogue references betrayals that haven’t happened yet or secrets that NPCs have. From a story point of view they’re a gift, and were a huge reason to play the original game more than once. In tabletop games you have a divide between player knowledge and character knowledge, i.e. you the player might know things that your character doesn’t. In Bloodlines the character knew things that you the player didn’t, which was amazing, and could never happen in the tabletop version. But the problem is that this is explicitly tied to the character being insane, from rules that were written in the 90s, and a video game in the early 2000s. We’ve all changed since then, even vampires.



Mitsoda says that this time their approach to the Malks will be thinking more about their insight and how it would affect a person who had it, and not presenting it as hilarious. “I think in general we kind of are going to be approaching the Malks in Bloodlines 2 as more playing up the kind of darker aspect of having that network of voices and that insight, and almost a little bit of paranoia,” he said. “I think there will be things that people will like about the Malks, the same things that they liked about the first one in that they said things that were very strange.”

He said that, since Malkavians are vampires, they’re not going to be a direct one-to-one with human mental illness, but they have been doing a significant amount of research. They looked into a lot of different mental illnesses, read medical papers, as well as looking at the experience from the point of view of people who actually do hear voices. And, because this is a work of fiction, they’ve been looking at how mental illness is portrayed in other works of fiction (Mitsoda was unimpressed by the majority of portayals in films, for example). “I think in general we can’t focus on any one mental illness, so we have to keep the Malks to our kind of interpretation of their experience as far as their insight, their network, the tragedy of it.” Malkavians are also an uncommon Clan in Seattle, so there’s already an inherent bias against them in vampy society that you’ll be dealing with.



It should be fairly obvious, then, that the Malkavians are going to be a challenge for the team. On the one hand, a few loud voices in the community are convinced that the Malks won’t be in Bloodlines 2, and if they are they’ll be ruined by political correctness gone, ahaha, mad. On the other, there’s a very good argument that in 2019 a character whose signature trait is mental illness is probably not going to come off well. As I write this, it seems to me that Malkavians are very much like a simulated nuclear war, in that the only winning move is not to play. But that doesn’t sound like it was an option.

I asked if they always knew they wanted the Malks to be one of the main clans, and Mitsoda said they determined very early on that not having a Malk would result in pitchforks and torches, which isn’t exactly the same as saying yes. And I, a person who am excited for Bloodlines 2 and liked the Malkavian in Bloodlines, but am also, y’know, 15 years older now and an ess jay doubleyou, am part of the problem. The character hasn’t even been written yet, so I’m just going to wait.

Mitsoda, meanwhile, seems to be under no illusions, and is remarkably prescient. “I’m actually glad we’re finally announcing it so we can go. ‘Okay guys, there you go. Stop freaking out about not having Malks, we have Malks. Now you can freak out about how we’re presenting Malks.’”

Disclosure: Cara Ellison, who used to write for RPS and was also Alice O’s flatmate, is a senior writer on Bloodlines 2.

 

[infidel]

Dementation’s first effect is Haunt, which basically makes people run away. Levelled up, it can become Beserk, which makes the target attack anything nearby, or, failing something to attack, the air. Malkavians can also use Auspex, which allows you to use Aura Sense to see NPCs through walls, mark individuals and read their weaknesses. Levelled, Auspex provides Psychic Projection, letting you scout around in astral form (whilst also using Aura Sense). While projecting, you can sometimes overwhelm NPC senses with the power of your big sexy brain.

Very Dishonored 2. Did they talk in some depth about the dialogue system yet?

 

[Infinitron]

The Tremere have Auspex also so that's not new.

This links to the million dollar question, which is “Will playing as a Malkavian be a different experience with unique dialogue?” and yes, yes it will, in a similar way to the original Bloodlines. “Because it is the expectation,” said Mitsoda, “We cannot deviate from the expectation of what the Malkavian experience is.”

[...] Mitsoda says that this time their approach to the Malks will be thinking more about their insight and how it would affect a person who had it, and not presenting it as hilarious. “I think in general we kind of are going to be approaching the Malks in Bloodlines 2 as more playing up the kind of darker aspect of having that network of voices and that insight, and almost a little bit of paranoia,” he said. “I think there will be things that people will like about the Malks, the same things that they liked about the first one in that they said things that were very strange.”

The same as Bloodlines 1, but "darker". They're trying to find a middle path. But it's good news for people who weren't expecting them to do the "full alternate dialogue" Malkavian at all.

 

[Child of Malkav]

They don't have Obfuscate anymore?

Also is there any stealth? Have they said anything about it? I mean no Obfuscate, no Nos. Getting suspicious.

 

[HansDampf]

Now that we know, these concepts are all NPCs in the game, I have to say, they look relatively bland compared to VtMB.

 

[Sailor Woedica]

The Malkavian NPC, clearly playing some kind of clout game.

Cool hair

 

[Infinitron]

Also is there any stealth? Have they said anything about it? I mean no Obfuscate, no Nos. Getting suspicious.

What do you mean by stealth? If somebody has their back turned to you they can't see you, there's your stealth.

If you're talking about some specialized ability related to stealth, the Thinblood has some of that: https://www.bloodlines2.com/en/thinblood

• Mist Shroud (Blood Cost: 2), Nebulation’s first active power, envelops the vampire with mist for a short time, muffling footsteps and making them slightly harder to notice.

 

[Prime Junta]

Cool.

I hope they'll pull it off. Not gonna be easy if you're as scared of offending someone as they appear to be.

 

[Lord Andre]

Called it!

Here:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...nd-brian-mitsoda.126124/page-222#post-6106991

Here:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...nd-brian-mitsoda.126124/page-222#post-6107185

And Here:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...nd-brian-mitsoda.126124/page-223#post-6107239

Orma you retarded dipshit, you rated those posts Fake News and It was aliens...

Suck my dick faggot!

 

[Child of Malkav]

Also is there any stealth? Have they said anything about it? I mean no Obfuscate, no Nos. Getting suspicious.

What do you mean by stealth? If somebody has their back turned to you they can't see you, there's your stealth.

If you're talking about some specialized ability related to stealth, the Thinblood has some of that: https://www.bloodlines2.com/en/thinblood

• Mist Shroud (Blood Cost: 2), Nebulation’s first active power, envelops the vampire with mist for a short time, muffling footsteps and making them slightly harder to notice.

I meant a stat you can invest in, you know like in Vtmb 1 and a corresponding playstyle.
That ability is....meh, better than nothing I guess.

 

[infidel]

The Tremere have Auspex also so that's not new.

The same as Bloodlines 1, but "darker". They're trying to find a middle path. But it's good news for people who weren't expecting them to do the "full alternate dialogue" Malkavian at all.

Yeah, this powerset just reaffirms my feeling that this will be Dishonored in gameplay. I was talking more about the dialogue system itself. I doubt that they can use full VTMB system to a tee nowadays.

 

[RickOmbo]

Basically, nu malks are creepy sorts, not crazy ones.

 

[glass blackbird]

Also is there any stealth? Have they said anything about it? I mean no Obfuscate, no Nos. Getting suspicious.

What do you mean by stealth? If somebody has their back turned to you they can't see you, there's your stealth.

If you're talking about some specialized ability related to stealth, the Thinblood has some of that: https://www.bloodlines2.com/en/thinblood

• Mist Shroud (Blood Cost: 2), Nebulation’s first active power, envelops the vampire with mist for a short time, muffling footsteps and making them slightly harder to notice.

Yeah, looks like the thinblood powers are all utility shit so they don't have to design as much inaccessible stuff. Every character's gonna get turning into a bat to access different areas, stealth abilities, and moving shit around.

Removing specialization is lame but it makes monetary sense given the desire to avoid making whole gameplay mechanics that only 1 clan can ever mess with

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

The Tremere have Auspex also so that's not new.

The same as Bloodlines 1, but "darker". They're trying to find a middle path. But it's good news for people who weren't expecting them to do the "full alternate dialogue" Malkavian at all.

Yeah, this powerset just reaffirms my feeling that this will be Dishonored in gameplay. I was talking more about the dialogue system itself. I doubt that they can use full VTMB system to a tee nowadays.

You mean dialogue trees??? The only thing unusual about the dialogue system in Bloodlines is that they mixed up the fonts.