Warhammer Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[rusty_shackleford]

What if Owlcat were developing a Starfinder game, but after losing a licensing deal with Paizo due to political reasons they had to rebrand it as a standalone project?

It would be an improvement, Starfinder's setting is junk.

 

[Saravan]

Do we know if the woke stuff came from Owlcat or the source material? Paizo is notoriously woke.

A lot of it right from the source.
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...ompilation-thread.140072/page-23#post-7591377

A lot but by no means all. During the AMA a year or so ago, one of their character writers made a point of saying she tried to push diversity/inclusion wherever possible. I assume that's where we get things like the Storyteller suddenly being gay, etc.

I don't really care, tbh, but it would help if the writing quality hadn't also nose-dived as they further focused on appeasing Biodrones.

Don't really care that game writers try to push woke shit indiscriminately but is bothered by writing quality taking a nosedive???

Character diversity is good but it must be made with some sense of logic with the gameworld. Not just shoved in haphazardly. In WotR you get a single human companion in a city where the majority are humans. How does that make sense? In total you get 2 (ofc they both had to be black as well but that's beside the point). What's this obsession to make everyone "speshul". I'm not even talking about having to make half the clown crew homos as well, just the fantasy races.

In the original BG I & II games the vast majority of companions are humans sprinkled with a few half-elves, elves and dwarfs etc. When it comes to more exotic races there is just a single Drow and Tiefling. Percentage wise they maintain a logical ratio to the gameworld.

 

[Mortmal]

Do we know if the woke stuff came from Owlcat or the source material? Paizo is notoriously woke.

A lot of it right from the source.
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...ompilation-thread.140072/page-23#post-7591377

A lot but by no means all. During the AMA a year or so ago, one of their character writers made a point of saying she tried to push diversity/inclusion wherever possible. I assume that's where we get things like the Storyteller suddenly being gay, etc.

I don't really care, tbh, but it would help if the writing quality hadn't also nose-dived as they further focused on appeasing Biodrones.

Don't really care that game writers try to push woke shit indiscriminately but is bothered by writing quality taking a nosedive???

Character diversity is good but it must be made with some sense of logic with the gameworld. Not just shoved in haphazardly. In WotR you get a single human companion in a city where the majority are humans. How does that make sense? In total you get 2 (ofc they both had to be black as well but that's beside the point). What's this obsession to make everyone "speshul". I'm not even talking about having to make half the clown crew homos as well, just the fantasy races.

In the original BG I & II games the vast majority of companions are humans sprinkled with a few half-elves, elves and dwarfs etc. When it comes to more exotic races there is just a single Drow and Tiefling. Percentage wise they maintain a logical ratio to the gameworld.

Same in modern tabletop, ton of races ancestries but none of them have drawbacks ,it just a big patchwork of everything , everyone is special so no one is. Good roleplayers when they want to be special play dwarves ,all from the same clan...

 

[Roguey]

In WotR you get a single human companion in a city where the majority are humans. How does that make sense?

You and your crew are ultra special persons, not normies.

 

[Saravan]

In WotR you get a single human companion in a city where the majority are humans. How does that make sense?

You and your crew are ultra special persons, not normies.

If this argument held any bearing you would see tieflings, drows and other exotic races in RPG:s where the main population are humans appear as companions in the same ratio as humans. This isn't the case, BG being a prime example of presenting these races in their proper light, as rare individuals and having those races carry some actual weight.

In DA:O the qunari is practically as rare as tieflings should be. There is only one such companion. The majority are humans with some elves and dwarves.

WotR makes the classic mistake of compensating shit writing with an overabundance of non-humans and focusing solely on "I'm special because of my race" or other external features.

 

[Roguey]

If this argument held any bearing you would see tieflings, drows and other exotic races in RPG:s where the main population are humans appear as companions in the same ratio as humans. This isn't the case, BG being a prime example of presenting these races in their proper light, as rare individuals and having those races carry some actual weight.

There are people who find BG a bore compared to Torment, where you and every companion is some kind of weirdo. If you want a crew of all humans, make them.

 

[Saravan]

If this argument held any bearing you would see tieflings, drows and other exotic races in RPG:s where the main population are humans appear as companions in the same ratio as humans. This isn't the case, BG being a prime example of presenting these races in their proper light, as rare individuals and having those races carry some actual weight.

There are people who find BG a bore compared to Torment, where you and every companion is some kind of weirdo. If you want a crew of all humans, make them.

These RPG:s aren't comparable for this purpose and highlights that you are missing the point entirely. It makes sense that all your companions are a bunch of weirdos in PS:T because both the gameworld and the story sets up for it. It also helps that those companions are well-written and the "external features" serves more as an added flavor.

It makes no fucking sense that in Kenabres where 95% are humans you meet one human companion and then: elf, half-elf, kitsune, aasimar, tiefling, 2 mongrelmen and a dwarf. Literally the clown crew. It's obvious this was shoehorned in a desperate attempt to make them stand out.

 

[Desiderius]

If this argument held any bearing you would see tieflings, drows and other exotic races in RPG:s where the main population are humans appear as companions in the same ratio as humans. This isn't the case, BG being a prime example of presenting these races in their proper light, as rare individuals and having those races carry some actual weight.

There are people who find BG a bore compared to Torment, where you and every companion is some kind of weirdo. If you want a crew of all humans, make them.

Humans can be special too, Roguey, or even valued for features other than, *gasp*, diversity.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

human lives matter

 

[Roguey]

These RPG:s aren't comparable for this purpose and highlights that you are missing the point entirely. It makes sense that all your companions are a bunch of weirdos in PS:T because both the gameworld and the story sets up for it. It also helps that those companions are well-written and the "external features" serves more as an added flavor.

It makes no fucking sense that in Kenabres where 95% are humans you meet one human companion and then: elf, half-elf, kitsune, aasimar, tiefling, 2 mongrelmen and a dwarf. Literally the clown crew. It's obvious this was shoehorned in a desperate attempt to make them stand out.

Humans have been trying and failing to win that war for a long time. Then the ultra special PC and a crew of ultra special people come along and solve the conflict. They're under no obligation to be human to meet some subjective quota. There are plenty of humans around, they're just NPCs and soldiers, not special. The game also gives you the option to author your own story where everyone you control is a human so you can ignore the special people entirely. The designers had no interest in writing a cast full of mundane people, much like how all those people who paid money to have their characters appear in Pillars of Eternity made most of them godlikes. Neither the designers nor most of the players who like Pathfinder are remotely Gygaxian in their preferences.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

munchkins are the worst kind of people, why would anyone be surprised that they all like to play special snowflake characters?

 

[Roguey]

munchkins are the worst kind of people, why would anyone be surprised that they all like to play special snowflake characters?

I actually played a human fighter in Kingmaker since you can apply your +2 bonus to strength unlike freaking D&D which demands you play a half-orc (or a wood elf in NWN2) for that same bonus.

 

[Saravan]

These RPG:s aren't comparable for this purpose and highlights that you are missing the point entirely. It makes sense that all your companions are a bunch of weirdos in PS:T because both the gameworld and the story sets up for it. It also helps that those companions are well-written and the "external features" serves more as an added flavor.

It makes no fucking sense that in Kenabres where 95% are humans you meet one human companion and then: elf, half-elf, kitsune, aasimar, tiefling, 2 mongrelmen and a dwarf. Literally the clown crew. It's obvious this was shoehorned in a desperate attempt to make them stand out.

Humans have been trying and failing to win that war for a long time. Then the ultra special PC and a crew of ultra special people come along and solve the conflict. They're under no obligation to be human to meet some subjective quota. There are plenty of humans around, they're just NPCs and soldiers, not special. The game also gives you the option to author your own story where everyone you control is a human so you can ignore the special people entirely. The designers had no interest in writing a cast full of mundane people, much like how all those people who paid money to have their characters appear in Pillars of Eternity made most of them godlikes. Neither the designers nor most of the players who like Pathfinder are remotely Gygaxian in their preferences.

And that is precisely why these characters are shit in these games. Believing you can create interesting companions by spamming what are supposed to be increadibly rare races instead of focusing on well-written personalities. It's just pathetic compensation. The tiefling isn't any special when you have 10 others equally super special races as companions. They have never learned the value in restraint.

Also the "just make all your party members humans if you want humans" is a retarded statement. It's not even remotely comparable to written companions.

 

[Orud]

Humans can be special too, Roguey, or even valued for features other than, *gasp*, diversity.

It's difficult to win with this type of thing either way. If Owlcat went the other way, I can easily imagine them being called out as followed: "The game takes places around a hellpit that's threatening the entire world, and only the humans send their troops? Furthermore, we literally go to hell and back, encountering gods along the way, and we just get a thiefling or two to join us?"

While I don't like most of the party members that we end up with, I do understand and agree with Roguey's points.

 

[Roguey]

And that is precisely why these characters are shit in these games. Believing you can create interesting characters by spamming what are supposed to be increadibly rare races instead of focusing on well-written personalities. It's just pathetic compensation. They have never learned the value in restraint.

Wrath fans appear to like 'em though.

Also the "just make all your party members humans if you want humans" is a retarded statement. It's not even remotely comparable to written companions.

You hate the current roster, including the two black humans, what makes you think you'd like other characters any more just because they happen to be human? The solution to "I hate how companions are written in this game" is to not take any of them. Nenio and Greybor and Camellia and so on wouldn't have radically different personalities if they were conceived as humans.

 

[mondblut]

What's this obsession to make everyone "speshul".

That's the mentality of people who joined the hobby from 3rd edition onwards. Everyone's got to be half-dragonborn drow aasimar divine warlock/monk of the pulsating dick. "Human fighter" just doesn't cut it.

 

[Orud]

Creating entire custom parties should be easier, and be made available, for every RPG out there. Owlcat's RPG's aren't the exception to this.

 

[Reinhardt]

The game takes places around a hellpit that's threatening the entire world, and only the humans send their troops?

"surprisingly" only humans send troops.

 

[Saravan]

And that is precisely why these characters are shit in these games. Believing you can create interesting characters by spamming what are supposed to be increadibly rare races instead of focusing on well-written personalities. It's just pathetic compensation. They have never learned the value in restraint.

Wrath fans appear to like 'em though.

Also the "just make all your party members humans if you want humans" is a retarded statement. It's not even remotely comparable to written companions.

You hate the current roster, including the two black humans, what makes you think you'd like other characters any more just because they happen to be human? The solution to "I hate how companions are written in this game" is to not take any of them. Nenio and Greybor and Camellia and so on wouldn't have radically different personalities if they were conceived as humans.

Wrath fans also appreciate how empowering it is to have a transgender half-orc as your lieutenant for the majority of the game. I'm sorry was there a point to this statement?

I'm not discussing the solution for me specifically playing with WotR:s clown crew. We are talking more broadly about race presentation and the incessant need to shove in as many different races as possible into the roster, rarity in the context of the gameworld be damned. From this point the "just use custom party" is a nonsensical argument.

 

[Sarathiour]

munchkins are the worst kind of people, why would anyone be surprised that they all like to play special snowflake characters?

Ironically enough, human tend to be one of the best race to pick in pathfinder, a +2 stat to whatever, no string attached, and a free feat drive a hard bargain against different flavor of special snowflake.

 

[mondblut]

Neither the designers nor most of the players who like Pathfinder are remotely Gygaxian in their preferences.

That much is obvious.

 

[Lagole Gon]

Idk someone mentioned but... This game has nothing to do with Paizo. Like at all

And that's a good thing.
IIRC the reason Siroket in the Codex quest is a woman... is Paizo forcing gender quotas. Yes, really.
I suppose it still kind of works as Brenda Romero instead of Robert Sirotek.

 

[Jaedar]

Idk someone mentioned but... This game has nothing to do with Paizo. Like at all

Big step for owlcat. I guess they might still use one of the free d20 rulesets (including pathfinder minus the setting?). I expect it might be kinda garbage, but we'll see.

What's this obsession to make everyone "speshul".

That's the mentality of people who joined the hobby from 3rd edition onwards. Everyone's got to be half-dragonborn drow aasimar divine warlock/monk of the pulsating dick. "Human fighter" just doesn't cut it.

If you want to be a human fighter just buy an axe and go into the woods irl, guaranteed to be way more satisfying than pretending to be one in your basement. But those of us who want be be half aasimar half tiefling red dragon sorceror monk liches don't really have that option!

 

[Cryomancer]

sperges-about-magic posts? Those always get the replies going.

If you really wanna see me talking about magic, check my last thread about exotic spells ( https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/more-exotic-spells-in-rpgs.143143/ ) is not about powerful spells, just exotic.

What if Owlcat were developing a Starfinder game, but after losing a licensing deal with Paizo due to political reasons they had to rebrand it as a standalone project?

It would be an improvement, Starfinder's setting is junk.

OwlCat can also just license a retroclone.

IIf instead of Starfinder, they are making Machinations of the Space Princess AKA LotFP in space, that would be a of epic proportions.

In the original BG I & II games the vast majority of companions are humans sprinkled with a few half-elves, elves and dwarfs etc. When it comes to more exotic races there is just a single Drow and Tiefling. Percentage wise they maintain a logical ratio to the gameworld.

Strongly agreed. Unless we are in underdark, most people in your party should be human.

, ton of races ancestries but none of them have drawbacks ,it just a big patchwork of everything , everyone is special so no one is. Good roleplayers when they want to be special play dwarves ,all from the same clan...

When I played a one shot campaign in Dark Sun(3.5e), we had 3 humans, a mul(half dwarf half human created to be powerful slave) and an elf npc since nobody wanted to play as cleric and good lucky surviving in Dark Sun without a cleric. But also played a fair share of exotic stuff in 3.5E, like a party with a half dragon, a vampire, a tiefling and a drow, I like some exotic races but believe that they should come with huge drawbacks. Dhampirs in PF1e which take damage from positive energy and has some penalties exposed to sunlight for eg.

You and your crew are ultra special persons, not normies.

Makes sense, but why most "special" persons are non humans?

In D&D verse, humans aren't in the bottom of food chain. Even limiting to casters, Karsus, Elminster, the Sorcerer Kings of Athas, the leaders of Thay(....) all are humans.

The game takes places around a hellpit that's threatening the entire world, and only the humans send their troops?

"surprisingly" only humans send troops.

As FriendlyMerchant said, gnomes are too busy producing weapons and scrolls for humans and there are antinanistic conspiracy theories that they are also supporting demons to kill lots of humans and make huge profits. The gnomish fact check institution already proved that this is just a antinanistic conspiration theory. Jokes aside, if you play in the lich path, Geb, a undead magocracy in far south sends undead troops and a vampire advisor to you.

But sure, I don't recall seeing any elf or dwarf kingdom sending troops.

 

[mondblut]

But those of us who want be be half aasimar half tiefling red dragon sorceror monk liches don't really have that option!

Just identify as one, brosis!