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Why is Gothic series so culty?

Humanophage

Arcane
Joined
Dec 20, 2005
Messages
5,138
I remember it being an enjoyable, but bad and flawed game that required a tolerance for clunky action adventure games. Funny that people cared about the "lore" and "worldbuilding" of an open-air prison. That it's tiny as well and only has 3 towns, and makes you run back and forth everywhere to make it seem larger than it really is (until the end of the game with purchasable speed potions). The C&C boils down to being able to use a powerful spell vs. getting the best armor, since the story melds into the same path eventually.
I remember being shocked when I discovered that Gothic isn't regarded as a total RPG AAA classic by normies outside Central and Eastern Europe. I think those regional differences put things in perspective. For instance, I thought of Call of Duty as some trashy console shooter that no normal person would pick over Quake, Unreal Tournament, and Counterstrike. No one I knew knew CoD, it wasn't really in the magazines either. But it turns out it was a major mainstream success in the US. Same for Halo, which to me seemed like something akin to Zero Tolerance, an FPS on a platform not intended for it.

Gothic did not appear any more clunky than other games. Certainly Fallout is fairly clunky with the trading system or the long enemy turns. Final Fantasy is megajanky as a console port. Morrowind with some bizarro incomprehensible spawn system and a Wiki in place of dialogues is also clunky.
 
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Gastrick

Cipher
Joined
Aug 1, 2020
Messages
1,710
I remember it being an enjoyable, but bad and flawed game that required a tolerance for clunky action adventure games. Funny that people cared about the "lore" and "worldbuilding" of an open-air prison. That it's tiny as well and only has 3 towns, and makes you run back and forth everywhere to make it seem larger than it really is (until the end of the game with purchasable speed potions). The C&C boils down to being able to use a powerful spell vs. getting the best armor, since the story melds into the same path eventually.
Gothic did not appear any more clunky than other games. Certainly Fallout is fairly clunky with the trading system or the long enemy turns. Final Fantasy is megajanky as a console port. Morrowind with some bizarro incomprehensible spawn system and a Wiki in place of dialogues is also clunky.
I think the combination of RT combat and that the clunkiness affects it the worst, which makes the jank worse than in those other games. Them opting for tank controls was a large part of it.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,986
I think the combination of RT combat and that the clunkiness affects it the worst, which makes the jank worse than in those other games. Them opting for tank controls was a large part of it.
You got used to the control scheme by the time you reached the Old Camp. At least it was the case for me.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,339
To the OP: sit your dumbass self down and let Porky educate you about Gothic games.

Gothic games were inspired by Ultima 7: The Black Gate, the ORIGINAL open world RPG. Now, that's not a big deal, many gaming lineages were, for example Elder Scrolls, Larian's Divinity games as well. But the other games took the less important stuff from U7, Sven for example deduced that the greatness of U7 lay in all the boxes and crates you could have in your world, while Todd made the same assumption with cutlery.

Piranha Bytes, otoh, correctly understood that the real greatness of U7 lay in the believable and immersive world (for its time) that the game created. Towns and villages weren't just a collection of houses with merchants and quest givers, they were real communities with lifelike NPCs, who had real behavior, like going to the tavern in the evening or coming home for lunch from work.

So when they released Gothic in 2000/2001, PB adopted the same approach, except now it was in glorious 3D and in third person perspective, which made it EVEN MORE immersive and interesting. The real star of the game was its world, which was meaningful to a degree other games/franchises couldn't even dream about. Each settlement had its own theme (from the general ideology of it to the unique armors/clothing of its NPCs to the way houses were made). Creatures in the wild had complex behavior, e.g. some could hunt the others, NPCs had REALLY complex behavior (they had a day/night cycle, would grow aggressive if you entered their home, would do cool stuff like cook and sit around campfires in the evening, piss behind the house, etc). Settlements had hierarchies with many levels that the player could rise up in. The world also allowed cool vertical exporation via climbing/mantling in addition to great horizontal exploration (tons of hand-placed unique content to find). To this day, most open world games either look completely dead (e.g. Morrowind) or have placeholder NPCs/crowds to appear alive but these are not real NPCs (e.g. Witcher 3 or Ubisoft open worlds). Gothic 1/2 had the best of both, with a living breathing world made up of actual NPCs you could interact with.

Aside from the world, early Gothic games also featured amazing combat for their time. People don't realize this now, because it's been more than 20 years since G1 released, but at the time, RPG action combat was somewhere between Morrowind/Daggerfall (left mouse button spam) and Arx Fatalis (Hold and Click spam). G1/G2 introduced actual action combat to the genre, with timed blocks, attack combinations, or the amazing way your attack animations actually change as you level up combat skills. Yes, it may look clunky today, but it was really revolutionary back then.

Finally, those games also have a great power curve (you start as a nothing, and slowly, gradually build your way up to a hero), which is one of the great things about a good RPG, and they really nail the atmosphere and dialogue. PB was never as talented at writing/creating lore as say CDProjektRed, but they played to their strengths and released short to the point dialogue that worked really well to flesh out a cruel, difficult world.
 
Joined
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Messages
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P.S. While there is nothing quite like Piranha Bytes games, I would also suggest to anyone who enjoyed Gothics to try Breath of the Wild. It's not exactly the same, but this game is the closest (along with maybe KCD) that other studios have come to replicating SOME of that early PB magic.
 

octavius

Arcane
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Joined
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Bjørgvin
The groundbreaking thing about Gothic was that it got
It simulates life very well. You start off as a nobody, relentlessly bullied by figures of authority. Then you level up and come back to the place where you were bullied and kill everyone.
 

Sunsetspawn

Arcane
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
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Location
New York
Gothic 2 is the best open world fantasy ARPG to this day. That this is even a discussion confuses me.
Alan_Keyes.jpg
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2020
Messages
271
Gothic 2 is the best open world fantasy ARPG to this day. That this is even a discussion confuses me.

This is a discussion about whether Gothic 1 was groundbreaking, not whether Gothic 2 was a good game.
I'm pretty sure this is a discussion about why the series is (supposedly) so culty, not whether it's groundbreaking or a good game.

Anyway, I think the question has been pretty much answered.
 

Jelerak

Literate
Joined
Jan 10, 2023
Messages
14
"Gothic" is a reference to the middle-ages(12th-16th century) because during that time that was the prevalent type of architecture.

Well, I think that an average gamer should rather imagine some Victorian-era world with vampires, ghosts of the poor girls that drowned themselves in mossy pools beside the gloomy walls of cursed grotesgue castles and stuff like this.
At least, being that average gamer myself I look at the title "Gothic" in this way exactly.
 

Konjad

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Nov 3, 2007
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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
And calling my BS he did, quoting years old posts and correcting my 'mistakes', for example explaining that people should write "apt" not "apt-get" because it's shorter and quicker, but probably not being aware few years ago when I wrote the post there was no "apt".

Will check when exactly "apt" was introduced and get back to you in that thread. I am convinced that it was introduced years ago.

As I suspected, the Linux thread is a goldmine of bad advice. You recommended Linux Mint to newbies: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/general-purpose-linux-thread.108219/page-38#post-6812542, a distribution that has a poor safety record because it was hacked several years before your post. At that time hackers added a backdoor to installation ISO images: https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=2994

With a distribution geared towards noobs they would not even have to be creative in hiding the backdoor, they might as well spawn a process named "you-have-been-pwned-by-1337-haxxorz-d" in the background and nobody would notice.

Remember kids, do not install patches, mods or utilities recommended by Konjad if you do not want backdoors on your gaming rigs.

This is hilarious, what else do you advise on apart from RPGs and Linux? Real-estate? Dating? Investments? Cooking?
Indeed you have SLAYED me, DESTROYED my legitimacy and PROVEN WRONG in every regard.

I admit MY DEFEAT after your SMARTASS RETARD RETORT and can do nothing but admire your MENTAL DISABI ACUITY.

:bravo::creamyblood:
 

Konjad

Patron
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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
"Gothic" is a reference to the middle-ages(12th-16th century) because during that time that was the prevalent type of architecture.

Well, I think that an average gamer should rather imagine some Victorian-era world with vampires, ghosts of the poor girls that drowned themselves in mossy pools beside the gloomy walls of cursed grotesgue castles and stuff like this.
At least, being that average gamer myself I look at the title "Gothic" in this way exactly.
You read/watched too much Twilight.
 

Arthandas

Prophet
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
1,437
Fake news. All their games were clunky including ELEX. You can see it in all of their games.
They're making the same game again and again and again since 2001 and still can't get it right.
Even when somehow they manage to make something semi good like Risen 1, they immediately fuck it up with R2 and R3 proving they have no fucking idea what they're doing.
 
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Ravielsk

Magister
Joined
Feb 20, 2021
Messages
1,594
"Gothic" is a reference to the middle-ages(12th-16th century) because during that time that was the prevalent type of architecture.

Well, I think that an average gamer should rather imagine some Victorian-era world with vampires, ghosts of the poor girls that drowned themselves in mossy pools beside the gloomy walls of cursed grotesgue castles and stuff like this.
At least, being that average gamer myself I look at the title "Gothic" in this way exactly.
Unfortunately then its the fault of the "average american gamer" for not being historically literate and not of the developers.
 
Self-Ejected

HereticGuy

Self-Ejected
Joined
Sep 11, 2022
Messages
218
Fake news. All their games were clunky including ELEX. You can see it in all of their games.
They're making the same game again and again and again since 2001 and still can't get it right.
Even when somehow they manage to make something semi good like Risen 1 they immediately fuck it up with R1 and R2 proving they have no fucking idea what they're doing.

Are Gothic and Risen development teams consist the same people or they lost some key figure(s) after Gothic 2 - like in old ID Software days-?
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,986
Gothic 2 is the best open world fantasy ARPG to this day. That this is even a discussion confuses me.

This is a discussion about whether Gothic 1 was groundbreaking, not whether Gothic 2 was a good game.
Wrong. The question was "Why is Gothic series so culty?" or (in other words) "What made Gothic games so special?". It's completely different discussion from "Whether Gothic 1 was groundbreaking".
 

Jelerak

Literate
Joined
Jan 10, 2023
Messages
14
Unfortunately then its the fault of the "average american gamer" for not being historically literate and not of the developers.

Well, it's just because 'gothic fiction' and 'gothic rock' are more mainstream and mass-culture-friendly than their historical source of inspiration (i.e. gothic architecture).
 

MasPingon

Arcane
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
1,839
Location
Castle Rock
Maybe not 3D itself but a fully rendered world with a view distance past a few feet away from the character with no loading absolutely was. You need to keep in mind that the standard of 3D around the year 2000 was mostly based off of what you could get out of a PS1 and that was a lot of wobbly polygons with dithered textures and a NPC limit of 2-3 dudes. Reaching the old camp in 2001 and seeing about a dozen NPCs just strolling around was as futuristic as you could get back in the day.

Outcast wasn't half bad in 1999:

outcast99.jpg
Outcast is Gothic prototype. I love this game, still on of the best. As a poor polish kid I bought it at an auction on ebay, it was never released here. Thare was a demo where you could play for about 20 minutes and they gave you whole worlds of Ranzaar and Shamazaar, never made it past that in that time. I was always curious if it was full game with a timer :lol:
 
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jebsmoker

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 17, 2019
Messages
2,620
Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In I helped put crap in Monomyth
the "lol demo discs/free game w/ magazine sub" argument just seems very swarthy. i was exposed to the some the best games i've ever played due to demo discs, and since highly curated demo discs are now a relic of the past, people are less inclined to experiment with their taste in games
 
Joined
Jan 21, 2023
Messages
3,553
If you ask me, Gothic was a media darling from the get go. It was a "hardcore" game, and I do remember gaming media talking about it as the game only "those" people would dare to play (you know what I mean). It never received that much of a coverage among the pc gaming mags I used to read in the late 90s but that air of niche plus hardcore playing stuff always stuck to me. Today I see it as the only game(s) that managed to cook something that felt like a true spiritual successor to Ultima (especially 7).
 

Laz Sundays

Educated
Joined
Jan 12, 2020
Messages
206
Bwahahahah. Gothic is the ultimate EU mirror. Gothic IS the EU, and Elder Scrolls are US. It's such a good metaphor for every difference between these two worlds. Besides that, it is hilarious how western players can only look at Gothic with disbelief/puzzlement, never being able to vibe with it. Very amusing
 

cretin

Arcane
Douchebag!
Joined
Apr 20, 2019
Messages
1,411
Fake news. All their games were clunky including ELEX. You can see it in all of their games.
They're making the same game again and again and again since 2001 and still can't get it right.
Even when somehow they manage to make something semi good like Risen 1 they immediately fuck it up with R1 and R2 proving they have no fucking idea what they're doing.

Are Gothic and Risen development teams consist the same people or they lost some key figure(s) after Gothic 2 - like in old ID Software days-?
Lost not just some key figures but arguably THE key figures.
 

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