Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 RELEASE THREAD

[Oberon]

I don't think clerics have been good as anything other than spellcasters in D&D games. In IWD2 you could exorcise a ghost as a cleric, though.

Clearly you've never actually played D&D and especially haven't played 3.5 edition. Clerics with the 3.5E feat bloat became god tier because ALL the restrictions on them from 2E were removed. So they were what in MMOs are commonly known as "Tank Mages".

Wear full plate armor? Check.
Dual Wield Bladed Weapons? Check.
Dual wield TWO HANDED weapons, one handed? Check. (Monkey Grip feat, Oversized Weapons feat)
Cast fireballs and lightning bolts while wearing full plate? Check. (Domain Abilities)
Heal self to full health? Check.

So I can nuke better than the wizard, tank better than the fighter, output rogue levels of damage by dual wielding two handed swords, and then heal myself to full mid battle. Right... definitely not OP at all.

Not to mention...

Divine Power​

Evocation​

Level:	Clr 4, War 4
Components:	V, S, DF
Casting Time:	1 standard action
Range:	Personal
Target:	You
Duration:	1 round/level

Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level.

​

 

[Lemming42]

See, that's like the subjective part. I had fun with Elminster being that pompous fedora-wearing mumbojumbo-freak using all his vocabulary to impress.

That's fair enough; I did mention that it's subjective. I liked the idea behind the character too but I thought his abrupt appearance and extremely lengthy scene was yet another example of the game slowing to a screeching, tonally-inappropriate halt in order to give a loredump, which sadly happens a few times with the companions (and I also thought Gale's backstory itself was shit, but that's obviously subjective).

I feel like it's not inappropriate for me to respond to a request for examples of bad writing with the stuff I listed. I mean, we rag on Fallout 3 for having bad writing even though, by Emil Pagliarulo's standards, it's a roaring success given that he set out to give the game a surreal comic-book-y tone filled with larger-than-life characters, which the game very much accomplishes. It's just that most people are likely to think "this is shit" when they play it.

 

[Oberon]

They could've just told WOTC to go fuck themselves, it is a game called "BALDURS GATE 3".

You HAVE to become a company advisor.
Your takes are genius and you clearly know how to navigate in a business setting.

This but unironically
Nothing good ever comes from cucking out to corporate suits, especially not woke ESG whore corporate suits.
BG3 is good despite WotC's meddling, but still worse for it.

 

[darkpatriot]

Guys, please. I beg you. All of my brofists if you provided a few example of what you consider extremely bad writing in the game. I'm not disagreeing, but I have to see for myself if I consider the same piece of writing as atrocious as you're saying.

Not going to provide examples, but I am more than willing to discuss it in generalities.

My main complaints aren't with the prose, but with the overall dialog structure.

Now it is partly because I have been trained for like 2 decades on the Bioware/Obsidian style of dialog trees, but I frequently get the feeling from conversations in BG3 that I don't know what my character is actually trying to accomplish with the dialog options presented.

I'll click on some NPC to talk to them, but it is not really clear what my character is trying to accomplish in the dialog.

I think this is maybe because Larian tried more often to disguise the 3 different flavors of saying, "Please continue", as if they were actually different choices that led somewhere different. So they veer back towards whatever the main topic of the conversation is, even though it seemed like the dialog choice I was making was actually going to take the discussion in a different direction.


I think it is also because the NPC in the conversation doesn't strongly identify it with their initial statements and the different dialog options also don't provide a clear context of what the purpose of the conversation is.

I think that could maybe be some attempt by Larian to maybe try to make conversation seem more natural (but in real converstions you know what you are trying to accomplish with a conversation). Bioware/Obsidian conversations can often feel pretty artificial, but they kind of need to be because the conversation needs to convey information to the player in a relatively clear way.

It may also maybe that the writing team aren't native English speakers. So there is a higher frequency of cases were the writer meant one thing by a dialog option, and I took it to mean something else.


But It has stood out to me because I rarely had that feeling in conversations in Bioware or Obsidian games.

Disclaimer: I just finished up Act 1, although still have some act 1 content to do like the creche. So maybe it will be better/different in act 2 and 3.

 

[Konjad]

In every single game that has ever been made, something ends up being cut out in the development process.

Even in Redaxium?

 

[Takamori]

The companions are typically quite annoying. People make the comparison to Critical Role and I think that's a good starting point of reference. Everyone in your party is super-special and most of them have utterly ridiculous special backstories.

That's not writing, that's character design. A lot of people here confuse bad writing, bad story, bad character design and so on. The writing here is mostly solid with some occasional bad stuff. The character design is what some have problems with and later on with the story.

The backstories, and the way they're presented, can surely be classed as "writing". I'm talking stuff like Gandalf popping up to loredump Gale's crap backstory, Karlach just overwhelming you with her story of how she became Major Colonel Sargent General of the entire universe as soon as she meets you, stuff like that.

Don't know about Gandalf, but the example with Karlach is a good one, that was indeed bad writing. But for the most part, its actually pretty good, froggie, shadowheart, the vampire, various conversations with Gale.

Frog, Shadowheart and Astarion have the most complete experience regarding storytelling and content. Given that you are playing the game in their quests at creche, shar temple and cazador hideout. Those are the three characters that I felt something.

Now Karlach just feels rushed, she got that strong cheerful personality but the content around her is so raw. Dammon you expect him to come out with something or just say shit is fucked but at act 3 he just stay there saying yeh yeh gonna figure out something, so feels like they didn't have time to finish her content. Also Gortash dialogue with her was awkward as shit besides his pathetic fight that I took a huge dump on his face.

Gale feels buggy and slightly schizo they wanted to make him lusting for Karsus power but he never managed to express that darker side and just have a superficial exposition simping for Mystra. I mean you can convince him to go for Karsus powers but it feels so artificial with all the standard dialogues the character expose.

Minsc I have no fucking idea what he is doing in game besides being a prize for Jaheira quest?

Jaheira its all right I guess besides the weird power loss, nostalgia fan service but has content to back it up and given previous games you don't need much to acknowledge this character existence

Halsin lose any purpose after act 2, he just tag along because fucking reasons?

Wyll I gave some thought at first I had a bad impression but someone here in this thread said that he is a noble character but a dumb fuck at the same time and thats true that made me sympathize more with this character felt believable many instances of idiots thinking they are doing the right thing by selling themselves and get fucked in the end. At least the game lets you make him see this failure.

Minthara as people said seems like its bugged as fuck and you can't even enjoy whatever the fuck content it has.

 

[Reinhardt]

All of my brofists if you provided a few example of what you consider extremely bad writing in the game.

literally EVERYTHING related to karlach?

 

[Fedora Master]

It's funny in retrospect, how basement connoiseurs screeched that there is no reactivity to being Drow in the Emerald Grove area, but when you go into Grymforge as a Human, everyone comments on your race.

They got the Duergar completely wrong. Even for mercenaries they're much too friendly.

 

[Fedora Master]

It's funny in retrospect, how basement connoiseurs screeched that there is no reactivity to being Drow in the Emerald Grove area, but when you go into Grymforge as a Human, everyone comments on your race.

There is almost no reactivity for halflings outside of jokes about being short. Drow got a lot, comparatively.

Also basically none for Dragonborn but the entire race is an afterthought.

 

[Fedora Master]

I'm talking stuff like Gandalf popping up to loredump Gale's crap backstory

See, that's like the subjective part. I had fun with Elminster being that pompous fedora-wearing mumbojumbo-freak using all his vocabulary to impress.

Don't compare my people to that fucker, you bigot

 

[Sunri]

It's funny in retrospect, how basement connoiseurs screeched that there is no reactivity to being Drow in the Emerald Grove area, but when you go into Grymforge as a Human, everyone comments on your race.

There is almost no reactivity for halflings outside of jokes about being short. Drow got a lot, comparatively.

Also basically none for Dragonborn but the entire race is an afterthought.

There are multiple unique dialogues for lizards

 

[gurugeorge]

The companions are typically quite annoying. People make the comparison to Critical Role and I think that's a good starting point of reference. Everyone in your party is super-special and most of them have utterly ridiculous special backstories.

That's not writing, that's character design. A lot of people here confuse bad writing, bad story, bad character design and so on. The writing here is mostly solid with some occasional bad stuff. The character design is what some have problems with and later on with the story.

The backstories, and the way they're presented, can surely be classed as "writing". I'm talking stuff like Gandalf popping up to loredump Gale's crap backstory, Karlach just overwhelming you with her story of how she became Major Colonel Sargent General of the entire universe as soon as she meets you, stuff like that.

Don't know about Gandalf, but the example with Karlach is a good one, that was indeed bad writing. But for the most part, its actually pretty good, froggie, shadowheart, the vampire, various conversations with Gale.

Frog, Shadowheart and Astarion have the most complete experience regarding storytelling and content. Given that you are playing the game in their quests at creche, shar temple and cazador hideout. Those are the three characters that I felt something.

Now Karlach just feels rushed, she got that strong cheerful personality but the content around her is so raw. Dammon you expect him to come out with something or just say shit is fucked but at act 3 he just stay there saying yeh yeh gonna figure out something, so feels like they didn't have time to finish her content. Also Gortash dialogue with her was awkward as shit besides his pathetic fight that I took a huge dump on his face.

Gale feels buggy and slightly schizo they wanted to make him lusting for Karsus power but he never managed to express that darker side and just have a superficial exposition simping for Mystra. I mean you can convince him to go for Karsus powers but it feels so artificial with all the standard dialogues the character expose.

Minsc I have no fucking idea what he is doing in game besides being a prize for Jaheira quest?

Jaheira its all right I guess besides the weird power loss, nostalgia fan service but has content to back it up and given previous games you don't need much to acknowledge this character existence

Halsin lose any purpose after act 2, he just tag along because fucking reasons?

Wyll I gave some thought at first I had a bad impression but someone here in this thread said that he is a noble character but a dumb fuck at the same time and thats true that made me sympathize more with this character felt believable many instances of idiots thinking they are doing the right thing by selling themselves and get fucked in the end. At least the game lets you make him see this failure.

Minthara as people said seems like its bugged as fuck and you can't even enjoy whatever the fuck content it has.

Yeah this sounds about right. If the idea is to paint rounded, 3-dimensional character portraits, then Froggy and Astarion definitely feel the most like real beings. Shadowheart is so-so for me, quite well fleshed-out but too much of an edgy goth insert for my personal tastes. The rest as you say.

I don't get the Karlach hate arouind here - I mean apart from the obvious of the utter ridiculousness of female warriors, taking her as given, she's a hearty companion, kind of the equivalent of a hearty dwarf companion - but it sounds like she is a bit unfinished after you get the (quite moving) bit in Last Light Inn.

Gale is definitely a mess. I really liked him until the show-me-the-weave scene, and he's tried to hit on me at least one time that I remember since then. I'm morally certain that the whole interaction between Gale and the player character were designed specifically for female player characters, and they just copied it over to male player characters, hence the cringe-inducing faggoty feeling of male-player-character + Gale interactions. Gale my boy, what did they do to you?

Funnily enough, I think the smith who fixes Karlach up is actually one of the most real-seeming characters in the game too, even though there are only a few interactions with him, the actor is really good - I wish I could take him out with me on adventures, he seems like someone who would have a tale or two to tell

There are also two cuties who I wish could be on my team - the girl you meet in act one who's True Souled (her and her brother go to the owlbear cave with you), and Quartermaster Thali or whatever her name is, in Last Light Inn. It shows you they could have made Shadowheart much cuter if they'd wanted to - instead of the slightly dubious mixed-meat near-monobrow she is.

 

[Grauken]

I'm talking stuff like Gandalf popping up to loredump Gale's crap backstory

See, that's like the subjective part. I had fun with Elminster being that pompous fedora-wearing mumbojumbo-freak using all his vocabulary to impress.

Don't compare my people to that fucker, you bigot

pompous fits the bill though

 

[Rhobar121]

In every single game that has ever been made, something ends up being cut out in the development process.

Even in Redaxium?

I have no idea what it is.

I think the only game that didn't have cut content was pong, although I'm not sure here either.

 

[Fedora Master]

too much of an edgy goth insert

What's edgy about her? She absolutely doesn't do anything appropriately evil and nihilistic for a Shar worshipper.

 

[Jaunty]

Everyone in your party is super-special and most of them have utterly ridiculous special backstories.

The obvious comparison is BG2. The companions don't have a lot going on, but what's there is interesting and ties into the bigger narrative. For example, Keldorn's little companion quest is especially great, because it's so relatable: neglecting your family because of your work is such a mundane yet difficult issue. I also like how it's a genuine moral choice too: you can let him go back to his family to live happily ever after, but you actually lose out on a very good companion.
Meanwhile, all the companions in BG3 except Lae'zel are completely overblown, to the point that they make your character look insignificant. Each and every one of them has a backstory that would make a fine main quest in itself. Yet, there's no reason why all these people with five lifetimes worth of backstory would just randomly choose to follow this absolute nobody they just met - if not for the proverbial sword of Damocles hanging over their collective heads. Which would be fine, except none of them really act like we just banded together for our mutual survival.

Villains typically have no depth.

Again, BG2. Irenicus is immediately introduced, and his character set up during the whole beginning dungeon. You are given plenty of reasons to go after him, and it's all personal. And even if you spend the whole game chasing after him, you keep getting little dream sequences that keep you invested. Imoen getting kidnapped is also a wonderful inciting incident for the plot, because it's concrete enough that you're motivated to pursue it urgently, yet vague enough that going on random adventures to gather dosh and allies actually makes sense.
Meanwhile, BG3 starts with no clear villain, and the tadpoles turn out to be fucking nothing. I actually held off on camping at the beginning, because the way characters talked I assumed we had about a week to remove the tadpoles before we turned. But apparently, there is no danger, and going off to dick around in some cave is fine. Even better, I was actually supposed to spam rests, because that's what triggers all the companion dialogue.

 

[undecaf]

Hey, I haven’t read anything about this game so I still, obviously, don’t know anything about it.
I’m planning to get it at christmas, when the first launch of patches surely have been released.

How much in trouble would the ’dex deem I’m in for going blind on this?

Brain damage? Fun times and brain damage? Something else?

 

[Grauken]

Hey, I haven’t read anything about this game so I still, obviously, don’t know anything about it.
I’m planning to get it at christmas, when the first launch of patches surely have been released.

How much in trouble would the ’dex deem I’m in for going blind on this?

Brain damage? Fun times and brain damage? Something else?

It's designed to be rather accessible for newcomers

 

[Rhobar121]

Hey, I haven’t read anything about this game so I still, obviously, don’t know anything about it.
I’m planning to get it at christmas, when the first launch of patches surely have been released.

How much in trouble would the ’dex deem I’m in for going blind on this?

Brain damage? Fun times and brain damage? Something else?

If you listen to the Codex, you will most likely want to fuck every bear you meet.

 

[perfectslumbers]

Guys, please. I beg you. All of my brofists if you provided a few example of what you consider extremely bad writing in the game. I'm not disagreeing, but I have to see for myself if I consider the same piece of writing as atrocious as you're saying.

Perhaps it's more accurate to say story overall than just writing, since there's lots of issues with plotting and story implementation, and all the cut content surely means that the story of act 3 was mauled to death. It's also hard to accurately criticise dialogue line-by-line without replaying the game which I don't want to do. Here are some things that bothered me:

Spoiler

The decision to write a Marvelesque epic story where the main villains are D&D's main body/eldritch horror monsters, and the main hook being that one of them put a parasite inside of you which is going to devour your brain and turn you into a mindless alien slave, is baffling and seems to have been changed late in development. The tone of the story is simply entirely incompatible with the actual setup of the story. Baldur's Gate 3 should be about corruption and the loss of identity and the violation of your agency because that's how these events have to be written in order to make any sense with what we know of the Illithid.

A weird example was when The Emperor wanted to have sex with me and I called him a freak, then he revealed that Duke Stelmane was his thrall (and seemingly his sex slave). He yells at you and calls you a slave and says you have no choice. He's also the person who put the tadpole in you and is trying to groom you to consent to becoming a mindflayer. When this happened to me I thought it was supposed to be a big reveal about The Emperor and how dangerous and manipulative he is, but it never comes up again. Nobody mentions it and if you side with The Emperor he happily helps you stop the BBEG and you can get rid of your tadpoles and go on your merry way. Perhaps this is a leftover of an earlier version of The Emperor that was rewritten before release? Either way it's an out of place splicing of a darker, more serious, and more thematically appropriate story that is dropped right after.

The end of the game is underwritten and introduces too many plot twists and plot developments. An hour before the end it's revealed that the Nether Brain has been pulling the strings all along, and it's revealed that one of you has to become a mindflayer to subdue it. It seems like an attempt to suddenly add weight and consequences, but it doesn't fit the Marvelesque fantasy blockbuster that we've been playing up to this point, and it isn't explained, and it isn't foreshadowed. And they even make Orpheus, the fucking chosen prince of the Gith, accept becoming a mindflayer with barely any objection. Clearly Larian was afraid of hurting anybodies feelings and this fanservicey approach to consequence and the subject matter taints the entire game.

The worst lines in the game are probably Dame Aylin's after you save her and she talks about "Succour in bed" with Isobel. Either it's a parody of a terrible attempt at poetic writing or is just a terrible attempt at poetic writing but either way it it's shit.

Jaheira is a good example of a subtle failure in writing. In BG1/2 she's supposed to be a caring authority figure. The Bhaalspawn is young and she looks down on her and nags her with the goal of guiding her along the morally correct path, it's both her duty as a Harper and something personal to her. Now in BG3 obviously that personal connection isn't there but Jaheira's dialogue has a tone of pettiness to it that makes her less complex, less likable, and contrasts with her established personality.

I thought Orin was terrible in every scene she was in. Classic cackling mad character with nothing interesting or noteworthy. Just a lazily written cliche. Sometimes it's a cliche that works, like with The Joker from the Batman comics, but Orin just doesn't have any presence. Her attempts to fuck with you and threaten you are laughable and make her come off as pathetic and weak.

How every companion wants to fuck you is an obvious flaw. In every other RPG romances are limited by your sex, often your party makeup, and they require you to pick specific dialogues. It's fine if one or two companions approaches you romantically but to have every single companion do it so robotically shatters any semblance these characters have of agency outside of the player. Even fucking Halsin says he's madly in love with you because you told him to cheer up and have a drink or whatever. This is a serious flaw that destroys the games sense of camaraderie.

There's other problems. I think the "banter," between companions is dull. I think the companions are mediocre and are unable to properly live up to the melodrama of their insane backstories. I think the game is unable to write dialogue that fits the atmosphere of the actual events (Act 2 for example is very dark, but it never feels that way because the writers can't get that tone across). But I don't feel like talking about every single little thing I can think of.

 

[copebot]

Hey, I haven’t read anything about this game so I still, obviously, don’t know anything about it.
I’m planning to get it at christmas, when the first launch of patches surely have been released.

How much in trouble would the ’dex deem I’m in for going blind on this?

Brain damage? Fun times and brain damage? Something else?

This is not a challenging game on any difficulty. You do not need any special knowledge. Even if you make a mistake in your character build (like making a high charisma low str/dex fighter or whatever) you can correct your mistakes for 200 gold at any time.

 

[processdaemon]

Lae'zel and Astarion are definitely my favourites of the companions, they're interesting without being overwhelming and their side quests are better paced than those of the other companions. Apparently the guy who wrote Astarion also wrote Fane in DOS2, which makes sense as he was one of the few characters I liked in that too (although apparently Lae'zel's writer wrote Wyll as well so clearly having written one decent character is no guarantee of continued quality).

 

[Fedora Master]

Two stories mashed together that do not fit at all. Dead Three/Chosen and Tadpole/Elder Brain got no fucking connection and it clearly shows.

 

[undecaf]

Hey, I haven’t read anything about this game so I still, obviously, don’t know anything about it.
I’m planning to get it at christmas, when the first launch of patches surely have been released.

How much in trouble would the ’dex deem I’m in for going blind on this?

Brain damage? Fun times and brain damage? Something else?

It's designed to be rather accessible for newcomers

Like M&M4-5 accessible or even more?

Hey, I haven’t read anything about this game so I still, obviously, don’t know anything about it.
I’m planning to get it at christmas, when the first launch of patches surely have been released.

How much in trouble would the ’dex deem I’m in for going blind on this?

Brain damage? Fun times and brain damage? Something else?

If you listen to the Codex, you will most likely want to fuck every bear you meet.

So you can sidomize a bear in this game? Count me in right away!

But seriously, well not that much, I know the what to read and skip in the ’dex. :D

 

[perfectslumbers]

Like M&M4-5 accessible or even more?

It had 850k concurrent players. It's Dragon Age accessible.