Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 RELEASE THREAD

[notpl]

What do people think about 5e as a whole?

Solasta and Baldur's Gate 3 would both be much better games without suffering from the restrictions of "D&D 5th edition" --- especially Solasta, which did not actually have a license to use D&D but pointlessly imposed the rules on themselves anyway.

The single worst aspect is the limitation to 4 party members, given the inherent value to turn-based, tactical combat in having a larger number of characters for more class variety and tactical options.

"D&D 5th edition" attempts to compensate for the small number of party members by turning from heroic fantasy into the superhero genre, where all characters, regardless of class, quickly accrue various zany abilities, which however are arbitrarily limited to one use per battle, short rest, or long rest.

There is the idiocy of the "short rest" mechanic, in which characters inexplicably recover half their hit points and certain abilities, by taking a quick break, which for some reason can only be performed twice in between a "long rest".

The concentration mechanic means that a large portion of spells (and non-spell abilities) are exclusive to each other, in that a caster can only have one spell/ability requiring concentration active at one time. This inevitably results in nearly all concentration spells/abilities being disregarded in favor of one or two that are most powerful for a given class and level.

Characters are nonsensically allowed to level up in any class, meaning a character can suddenly gain all sorts of abilities associated with another class by taking one level in it, which permits all sorts of overpowered, game-breaking combinations.

Both Solasta and BG3 would have been far superior if they had simply relied on a home-brewed combination of the six TSR editions of D&D/AD&D.

"Concentration" is the only mechanic in your post from D&D 5th edition. And I don't believe there are any "non-spell abilities" that require concentration, but I could be wrong on that one with supplement bloat being what it is.

Fly Trap from Nature Sense staff (proc on hit) did (and would break pre-existing Concentration) but no longer does. Same with Wood Woad Shield Bonus Action Ensnare (DC is low on that one so not STR-based). Pretty sure Shield of Faith from Tyr Pal Greatsword still does require Concentration, but Heroism proc from Bracers (when you use Channel ability) doesn't.

Looks like procs don't require it but abilities you have to activate do. Elixirs don't however, or pots. Smites with lingering effects do, which may be a subtle nerf.

The way to manage concentration is to have an option for attacking each save (or other vulnerability) on enemies and to shore up each weakness of your party and apply as appropriate. If you do that effectively you don't need many.

My point was that BG3's idiosyncracies are Larian's own decisions, nothing to do with 5th edition.

 

[Desiderius]

Larian keeping up with the Owlcats:



Looks like they never did decide what exactly to do with non-lethal damage.

 

[DemonKing]

Both Solasta and BG3 would have been far superior if they had simply relied on a home-brewed combination of the six TSR editions of D&D/AD&D.

Not sure if that's how licensing D&D works (either via an officially licensed project or via the OGL).

To be honest for better or worse it's probably best for computer games to stick to the current version of D&D available on store shelves, as that's going to have the most cross-over appeal.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

Wizards takes the shots of everything D&D you'll use and how you'll use it. OGL is basically D&D without D&D copyrighted stuff, like illithids.

 

[MerchantKing]

Personally, I was secretly hoping that Mizora could replace Wyll. I even have a feeling it was possible in an earlier iteration of the character...which 90% of players would have done and his writer would have had to write another series of angry tweets.

How did you ever get this impression?

Doc Mitchell's animation was better.

What do people think about 5e as a whole?

The streamlined approach to builds as a whole is fine with me. I enjoy build porn and theory crafting as much as the next guy but even in a game like pathfinder the builds can get samey. Every martial damage dealer take a vivisectionist dip. Every dex tank take a sacred monk dip. So I don't mind a streamlined approach and more emphasis on roleplay.

With that emphasis on role play, I really don't like all the restrictions being removed on classes. Paladins being human only gave that class a lot of flavor. I don't see how rangers could be evil, bards shouldn't be Lawful, monks should be Lawful, ect... You're removing defining features of these classes

The best kingmaker build was

scaled fist 2/paladin 2/archeologist 2/Dragon disciple 4/two handed fighter 3/thug 4/viv 3

What do people think about 5e as a whole?

Solasta and Baldur's Gate 3 would both be much better games without suffering from the restrictions of "D&D 5th edition" --- especially Solasta, which did not actually have a license to use D&D but pointlessly imposed the rules on themselves anyway.

The single worst aspect is the limitation to 4 party members, given the inherent value to turn-based, tactical combat in having a larger number of characters for more class variety and tactical options.

"D&D 5th edition" attempts to compensate for the small number of party members by turning from heroic fantasy into the superhero genre, where all characters, regardless of class, quickly accrue various zany abilities, which however are arbitrarily limited to one use per battle, short rest, or long rest.

There is the idiocy of the "short rest" mechanic, in which characters inexplicably recover half their hit points and certain abilities, by taking a quick break, which for some reason can only be performed twice in between a "long rest".

The concentration mechanic means that a large portion of spells (and non-spell abilities) are exclusive to each other, in that a caster can only have one spell/ability requiring concentration active at one time. This inevitably results in nearly all concentration spells/abilities being disregarded in favor of one or two that are most powerful for a given class and level.

Characters are nonsensically allowed to level up in any class, meaning a character can suddenly gain all sorts of abilities associated with another class by taking one level in it, which permits all sorts of overpowered, game-breaking combinations.

Both Solasta and BG3 would have been far superior if they had simply relied on a home-brewed combination of the six TSR editions of D&D/AD&D.

"Concentration" is the only mechanic in your post from D&D 5th edition. And I don't believe there are any "non-spell abilities" that require concentration, but I could be wrong on that one with supplement bloat being what it is.

Fly Trap from Nature Sense staff (proc on hit) did (and would break pre-existing Concentration) but no longer does. Same with Wood Woad Shield Bonus Action Ensnare (DC is low on that one so not STR-based). Pretty sure Shield of Faith from Tyr Pal Greatsword still does require Concentration, but Heroism proc from Bracers (when you use Channel ability) doesn't.

Looks like procs don't require it but abilities you have to activate do. Elixirs don't however, or pots. Smites with lingering effects do, which may be a subtle nerf.

The way to manage concentration is to have an option for attacking each save (or other vulnerability) on enemies and to shore up each weakness of your party and apply as appropriate. If you do that effectively you don't need many.

My point was that BG3's idiosyncracies are Larian's own decisions, nothing to do with 5th edition.

Short rest is a 5e mechanic.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/adventuring#ShortRest

Larian's change was just making it heal half health and limiting it to twice instead of rolling hit die for healing on short rest. Various abilities are already recovered on short rest within 5e such as the channel divinity:

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/classes#ChannelDivinity

As for concentration, the inclusion of "abilities" is a generalization as anyone who knows better wouldn't even want to deal with the 5e ruleset other than in passing. The problem Zed related is still present even without any of Larian's additions.

Since Desi brought up the smites, all of them except branding smite and standard smite are not found in the rules according to this srd site so those would be Larian's additions.
https://www.5esrd.com/spellcasting/spell-lists/paladin-spells/

For multiclassing, there are no rules regarding when you can multiclass other than it's up to the DM as whether or not it is allowed and when; which is Larian in this case. Solasta didn't allow it.

The criticism about character turning into superheroes holds. It's especially epitomized by the ASI in 5e. Warrior are then universally as strong as record holding strongmen being at peak strength, or as enduring as marathon champions with peak endurance all just from leveling up. Then there's the action surge, second winds, cunning actions, etc. that make it even over the top. 3e was just as bad in this regard.

 

[gurugeorge]

What do people think about 5e as a whole?

The streamlined approach to builds as a whole is fine with me. I enjoy build porn and theory crafting as much as the next guy but even in a game like pathfinder the builds can get samey. Every martial damage dealer take a vivisectionist dip. Every dex tank take a sacred monk dip. So I don't mind a streamlined approach and more emphasis on roleplay.

With that emphasis on role play, I really don't like all the restrictions being removed on classes. Paladins being human only gave that class a lot of flavor. I don't see how rangers could be evil, bards shouldn't be Lawful, monks should be Lawful, ect... You're removing defining features of these classes

Build-wise, I'm sure the streamlining works really well for tabletop, I should imagine it's just right not to jam up proceedings and keep things flowing for filthy casuals. And as streamlining goes, it seems to me to be well done and well thought out (at least, in the CRPG context, which is all I know).

But for CRPGs I much prefer more complex systems with more detailed simulation, like 3e and Pathfinder.

I don't think the sameyness comes from the systems, but from hard difficulty modes in CRPGs, where you're kind of funnelled into ultra min-maxing and boring builds (hence "required" things like Vivi dips, although they aren't actually required necessarily, just often optimal), and just by the nature of CRPGs there isn't so much use for a lot of abilities that would otherwise find use in a tabletop context (which is why the storybook segments in work so well in the Owlcat games and POE - what you can't represent so well in graphics and assets, can be represented in a description in a storybook segment, and you can then have a use for odd little abilities that would otherwise be a waste in combat, and make more rounded and interesting characters).

What I do really like about 5e is the combat flow, particularly the way reactions are done. I also like the way Proficiency has been streamlined into a generalized bonus that just goes up with experience. That makes sense even from a simulationist perspective (experience gives you more proficiency in - whatever you're proficient in).

I dunno, I could see a re-complexification of 5e that satisfies the buildfag itch more, while still retaining the core streamlining ideas in 5e. I feel with 5e, the system has been stripped down in a way that makes sense, but I'd like to see it built up again and incrementally given a bit more simulation from that basis. (I don't know if that makes sense, but I'm sure some people understand what I'm saying.)

The one big annoyance is concentration. I do think there should be something like a split concentration ability, going up to 3, but only wizards should have it - wizards these days seem to me to be weak compared to sorcerers generally, even in terms of versatility, unless the game is set up for being able to con mobs before you encounter them, so that you can prepare appropriate spells from the bigger arsenal. Being able to have split concentration would suit the "big brained" notion of wizards perfectly.

 

[notpl]

Personally, I was secretly hoping that Mizora could replace Wyll. I even have a feeling it was possible in an earlier iteration of the character...which 90% of players would have done and his writer would have had to write another series of angry tweets.

How did you ever get this impression?

Doc Mitchell's animation was better.

What do people think about 5e as a whole?

The streamlined approach to builds as a whole is fine with me. I enjoy build porn and theory crafting as much as the next guy but even in a game like pathfinder the builds can get samey. Every martial damage dealer take a vivisectionist dip. Every dex tank take a sacred monk dip. So I don't mind a streamlined approach and more emphasis on roleplay.

With that emphasis on role play, I really don't like all the restrictions being removed on classes. Paladins being human only gave that class a lot of flavor. I don't see how rangers could be evil, bards shouldn't be Lawful, monks should be Lawful, ect... You're removing defining features of these classes

The best kingmaker build was

scaled fist 2/paladin 2/archeologist 2/Dragon disciple 4/two handed fighter 3/thug 4/viv 3

What do people think about 5e as a whole?

Solasta and Baldur's Gate 3 would both be much better games without suffering from the restrictions of "D&D 5th edition" --- especially Solasta, which did not actually have a license to use D&D but pointlessly imposed the rules on themselves anyway.

The single worst aspect is the limitation to 4 party members, given the inherent value to turn-based, tactical combat in having a larger number of characters for more class variety and tactical options.

"D&D 5th edition" attempts to compensate for the small number of party members by turning from heroic fantasy into the superhero genre, where all characters, regardless of class, quickly accrue various zany abilities, which however are arbitrarily limited to one use per battle, short rest, or long rest.

There is the idiocy of the "short rest" mechanic, in which characters inexplicably recover half their hit points and certain abilities, by taking a quick break, which for some reason can only be performed twice in between a "long rest".

The concentration mechanic means that a large portion of spells (and non-spell abilities) are exclusive to each other, in that a caster can only have one spell/ability requiring concentration active at one time. This inevitably results in nearly all concentration spells/abilities being disregarded in favor of one or two that are most powerful for a given class and level.

Characters are nonsensically allowed to level up in any class, meaning a character can suddenly gain all sorts of abilities associated with another class by taking one level in it, which permits all sorts of overpowered, game-breaking combinations.

Both Solasta and BG3 would have been far superior if they had simply relied on a home-brewed combination of the six TSR editions of D&D/AD&D.

"Concentration" is the only mechanic in your post from D&D 5th edition. And I don't believe there are any "non-spell abilities" that require concentration, but I could be wrong on that one with supplement bloat being what it is.

Fly Trap from Nature Sense staff (proc on hit) did (and would break pre-existing Concentration) but no longer does. Same with Wood Woad Shield Bonus Action Ensnare (DC is low on that one so not STR-based). Pretty sure Shield of Faith from Tyr Pal Greatsword still does require Concentration, but Heroism proc from Bracers (when you use Channel ability) doesn't.

Looks like procs don't require it but abilities you have to activate do. Elixirs don't however, or pots. Smites with lingering effects do, which may be a subtle nerf.

The way to manage concentration is to have an option for attacking each save (or other vulnerability) on enemies and to shore up each weakness of your party and apply as appropriate. If you do that effectively you don't need many.

My point was that BG3's idiosyncracies are Larian's own decisions, nothing to do with 5th edition.

Short rest is a 5e mechanic.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/adventuring#ShortRest

Larian's change was just making it heal half health and limiting it to twice instead of rolling hit die for healing on short rest. Various abilities are already recovered on short rest within 5e such as the channel divinity:

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/classes#ChannelDivinity

As for concentration, the inclusion of "abilities" is a generalization as anyone who knows better wouldn't even want to deal with the 5e ruleset other than in passing. The problem Zed related is still present even without any of Larian's additions.

Since Desi brought up the smites, all of them except branding smite and standard smite are not found in the rules according to this srd site so those would be Larian's additions.
https://www.5esrd.com/spellcasting/spell-lists/paladin-spells/

For multiclassing, there are no rules regarding when you can multiclass other than it's up to the DM as whether or not it is allowed and when; which is Larian in this case. Solasta didn't allow it.

The criticism about character turning into superheroes holds. It's especially epitomized by the ASI in 5e. Warrior are then universally as strong as record holding strongmen being at peak strength, or as enduring as marathon champions with peak endurance all just from leveling up. Then there's the action surge, second winds, cunning actions, etc. that make it even over the top. 3e was just as bad in this regard.

Yes, short rests are a 5e mechanic. They are not meant to be limited (hence the HD restriction on healing to introduce an element of resource management) and there are no "per combat" abilities in 5e, they recover either with a short rest or a long rest. The former makes perfect sense - if anything, the traditional long rest is nonsense and always was. There are lots of things human beings are only capable of doing after taking a short breather - sprinting, ejaculating, making deep dives underwater - but I can think of almost nothing that recharges when we sleep, except the amalgamated concept of fatigue itself.

Multiclassing has attribute requirements, meaning a multiclass build needs to be planned from the get-go. Kind of takes the wind out of the "anyone can take any class" criticism when a multiclass fighter/mage has to be planned as such from level 1 and statted out correctly.

Also, am I understanding you correctly? You take issue with characters getting stronger when they level up? Do you like RPGs, broadly?

 

[MerchantKing]

Also, am I understanding you correctly? You take issue with characters getting stronger when they level up? Do you like RPGs, broadly?

They should be better at performing in the skill sets they're using, not getting attributes that represent absurd increases in a physical or mental ability/potential simply from using their class' skill-set.

Multiclassing has attribute requirements, meaning a multiclass build needs to be planned from the get-go. Kind of takes the wind out of the "anyone can take any class" criticism when a multiclass fighter/mage has to be planned as such from level 1 and statted out correctly.

And you had to do that in every version of dungeons and dragons. However, when the requirements are so low in 5e for multiclassing, other than a small set of classes, anyone can take any class. Moreover, alignment restrictions are no longer in effect such as those for paladin, barbarian, or bard, resulting in a paladin/bard/barbarian/rogue/ranger/monk/warlock/etc. It's also egregious because there is no connection to what your character has been doing at this point. Suddenly your second level paladin pics up a bard or sorceror level out of nowhere for no reason even though there is no reason to suspect he advanced any prerequisite skills or had the training to be those classes. Do you think a random plumber can become a doctor just because they got enough experience as a plumber?

 

[Sunri]

 

[MerchantKing]

 

[Desiderius]

This Belgian New Math has me scratching my head.

 

[Desiderius]

The best kingmaker build was

scaled fist 2/paladin 2/archeologist 2/Dragon disciple 4/two handed fighter 3/thug 4/viv 3

Lol. Lmao.



Git Gud

 

[sebas]

So, Sazza being voiced by Shaniqua at the Mall makes this game anti-woke, right?

 

[Desiderius]

Gobs are MAGA caricature.

 

[Lagole Gon]

Gobs are MAGA caricature.

The last true nationalist gobbo is a prisoner held in cage.

 

[Sunri]

The best kingmaker build was

scaled fist 2/paladin 2/archeologist 2/Dragon disciple 4/two handed fighter 3/thug 4/viv 3

Lol. Lmao.

View attachment 40861

Git Gud

Multicasting more than 2 is retarded and destroys any sens of role-playing in the game.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Reading about this game on more generalist boards will drive me insane.
The amount of "I had to lower the difficulty because this game was kicking my ass so hard" only to learn that they aren't even talking about a challenging boss fight, but about something barely past the tutorial makes very hard to not question them with a "Are you crippled by mental retardation?".

 

[Reinhardt]

What is the best in Wyll?

nothing

 

[janior]

Reading about this game on more generalist boards will drive me insane.
The amount of "I had to lower the difficulty because this game was kicking my ass so hard" only to learn that they aren't even talking about a challenging boss fight, but about something barely past the tutorial makes very hard to not question them with a "Are you crippled by mental retardation?".

There's probably a LOT of people who never played this type of rpg before that are currently going through it so i'm not that surprised.

 

[dukeofwoodberry]

The best kingmaker build was

scaled fist 2/paladin 2/archeologist 2/Dragon disciple 4/two handed fighter 3/thug 4/viv 3

Lol. Lmao.

View attachment 40861

Git Gud

Multicasting more than 2 is retarded and destroys any sens of role-playing in the game.

I kind of agree with that. Taking all those classes feels like number crunching build faggotry versus actually roleplaying. I like theory crafting builds too but I also like utilizing a skill set versus just churning out the biggest number possible. That's what's cool about tabletop DND. Using creative solutions to work your way through programs versus a simulation where you churn out big numbers

 

[dukeofwoodberry]

Reading about this game on more generalist boards will drive me insane.
The amount of "I had to lower the difficulty because this game was kicking my ass so hard" only to learn that they aren't even talking about a challenging boss fight, but about something barely past the tutorial makes very hard to not question them with a "Are you crippled by mental retardation?".

There's probably a LOT of people who never played this type of rpg before that are currently going through it so i'm not that surprised.

Combat gets way too easy after your builds hit their stride and extra attacks and bonus actions are a thing. Personally I feel like extra attacks per round shouldn't be a thing or they should be very limited (fighter only for sure,) definitely shouldn't stack with haste.

 

[janior]

Reading about this game on more generalist boards will drive me insane.
The amount of "I had to lower the difficulty because this game was kicking my ass so hard" only to learn that they aren't even talking about a challenging boss fight, but about something barely past the tutorial makes very hard to not question them with a "Are you crippled by mental retardation?".

There's probably a LOT of people who never played this type of rpg before that are currently going through it so i'm not that surprised.

Combat gets way too easy after your builds hit their stride and extra attacks and bonus actions are a thing. Personally I feel like extra attacks per round shouldn't be a thing or they should be very limited (fighter only for sure,) definitely shouldn't stack with haste.

and what does that have to do with what I said?

 

[volklore]

Gobs are MAGA caricature.

They speak like inbred countryside anglos.
I woss Chessing the chickin innit mate!
Hhmm what did those belgians mean by this 1!!1?

 

[dukeofwoodberry]

Reading about this game on more generalist boards will drive me insane.
The amount of "I had to lower the difficulty because this game was kicking my ass so hard" only to learn that they aren't even talking about a challenging boss fight, but about something barely past the tutorial makes very hard to not question them with a "Are you crippled by mental retardation?".

There's probably a LOT of people who never played this type of rpg before that are currently going through it so i'm not that surprised.

Combat gets way too easy after your builds hit their stride and extra attacks and bonus actions are a thing. Personally I feel like extra attacks per round shouldn't be a thing or they should be very limited (fighter only for sure,) definitely shouldn't stack with haste.

and what does that have to do with what I said?

Commenting on how easy combat actually is especially later. Being new only counts for the beginning

 

[ColonelMace]

Seems to hint that BG3 was one-shot with D&D(I suspect there will be sequel DLC but that's just me), he also says that that he and the main team are now working on another project.

That would be pretty brave, if not a little silly, to just let go of all the work it took to implement the 5E shit in their engine and not consider making at least one other 5E game of sorts with it.
I feel like the main chunk of the coding would be done and it'd be an occasion to give some work to interns and juniors, without bothering them with the load of managing a project from the ground.