Blizzard announced "Classic" World of Warcraft

[rusty_shackleford]

It's not complex, it's tedious.

 

[Delterius]

It's tedious because its complexities do not achieve much.

 

[Avarize]

Wishing for a single button rotation tells more about your own lack of ability than the state of class design. If anything it was better during MoP when the gameplay was even more "tedious".

 

[rusty_shackleford]

if I wanted to mash 500 buttons to do a single attack I'd go play a fighting game

 

[Avarize]

Sounds like Auto Chess is more your speed.

 

[J1M]

I'd rather see a focus on tactical decisions over dexterity tests. The most enjoyable moments in WoW are when things go wrong and you scramble to recover by using your entire toolset.

 

[Avarize]

That's more of a thing in M+ or PvP. Raids don't really have margin for error. If something goes wrong it's a wipe.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I thought the problem with retail is that everything is automated so there's not a whole lot of interaction, either with the world or with people.

My last expansion was Wrath so all i know of retail is from people bitching about it.

 

[Avarize]

The open world is dead and boring, grouping is impersonal unless you play at the very top level, there are almost no server communities, loot/reward systems never quite give the same satisfaction they used to. I think that's most of it when compared to to Vanilla-Wrath era. Then there's the complaints about class design being simplistic and inferior to MoP (true) and mythic+ never quite replicating how good the dungeons were in its first iteration in Legion (true).

 

[[UCHIHA]XxDarkSasuke420xX]

retail only has 8 dungeons and one raid
if they expect people to grind an endgame for two years the end game needs to have more than 8 short dungeons and 1 raid
I was bored of the dungeons a week after the xpac released

 

[Avarize]

Obviously each new patch is going to have a raid and some of them will have dungeons. The real problem isn't that there's only eight of them but that they are the same type of linear bullshit as in BFA. They need to return to Legion dungeon design. Something like Eye of Ashara or Lower Karazhan were always a pleasure to run because there were so many different routes. Those principles combined with interesting bosses like in Seat of Triumvirate would have made for perfect dungeons. But they'd rather design tunnels instead.

 

[Ravielsk]

Obviously each new patch is going to have a raid and some of them will have dungeons. The real problem isn't that there's only eight of them but that they are the same type of linear bullshit as in BFA. They need to return to Legion dungeon design. Something like Eye of Ashara or Lower Karazhan were always a pleasure to run because there were so many different routes. Those principles combined with interesting bosses like in Seat of Triumvirate would have made for perfect dungeons. But they'd rather design tunnels instead.

Ironically this is more or less how dungeons functioned in Vanilla. Especially BRD which was effectively the size of an entire zone and had a metric crap ton of quests associated with it(you even had to go there to make the hand of Ragnaros) so not only could each run follow a different route but each run would be happening for different reasons. Some would be about getting attunement, some just to farm gold, some for leveling, some to make the hand of Rag. There were so many things and reasons to do those things that effectively one dungeon had more content that all the dungeons in BfA.

Spoiler

Granted if you were serious about raiding it was a tad too time consuming but that is a easy problem to fix and not inherent to the design philosophy in and of its self.

The only reason why shorted dungeons had such positive reception in TBC was because there were so many and the introduction of heroics(which meant something back in the day). Only in later expansions with the added emphasis on farming emblems did it become obvious why designing dungeons in this way was a dead end design philosophy. Then again I highly doubt anyone at Blizzard still has the capacity to realize this.

 

[[UCHIHA]XxDarkSasuke420xX]

8 is still I think the smallest number of dungeons in any xpac, like half the number of dungeons that we'd get in earlier xpacs. Also I've said this before but I think this xpac will be a total dud. They'll put out one mega dungeon and 2 new raids (MAYBE 3 if one raid is like one boss), say something like "LOL COVID LIFE HAS BEEN SO DIFFICULT WE ALL WORK FROM HOME NOW PLS UNDERSTAND WE'LL GET THRU THIS TOGETHER" and skip to the next xpac.

IDK if non-linear dungeons are even possible anymore with the M+ system, the devs know that most people will just download a crazy taxi arrow to tell them exactly what route to take every time and now they just design everything around this fact. If they're gonna continue with the M+ speedrun epic MLG e-sport gamer design theory the only way to increase dungeon variety is to literally just make more dungeons, which really shouldn't be too difficult they just need to lay down some hallways and plop down some trash and a few bosses.

IRONICALLY the most fun way to play retail WoW right now is as f2p, because you cap at 20 and have access to something like 40 dungeons between all of the previous expansions. Also making f2p level 20 twinks is hilarious right now because of how broken gem slots and some enchants are at low levels

 

[rusty_shackleford]

non-linear dungeons aren't possible anymore because people don't go into dungeons to explore and complete quests but to complete them as fast as possible for whatever bullshit dungeon finder rewards they give out now

If you want good dungeons, go play DDO, nothing else even comes close.

 

[Avarize]

IDK if non-linear dungeons are even possible anymore with the M+ system, the devs know that most people will just download a crazy taxi arrow to tell them exactly what route to take every time and now they just design everything around this fact. If they're gonna continue with the M+ speedrun epic MLG e-sport gamer design theory the only way to increase dungeon variety is to literally just make more dungeons, which really shouldn't be too difficult they just need to lay down some hallways and plop down some trash and a few bosses.

I just gave examples of non-linear dungeons during the era of M+. If anything it would help their esports dreams as well because the teams wouldn't all be repeating the same routes.

 

[Ravielsk]

non-linear dungeons aren't possible anymore because people don't go into dungeons to explore and complete quests but to complete them as fast as possible for whatever bullshit dungeon finder rewards they give out now

That is a simple problem to fix. The whole reason why people are treating every dungeon as a speed run is because of the emblem system. Remove that system and there will be no longer any reason to treat dungeons as speed runs. Instead as a catch up mechanic they could gradually roll out quests that require you to clear once dungeon from previous patches to get some "catch up dungeon set" or simply roll out such sets as cheap crafting recipes so that players could either craft or buy them on the auction house. There is a lot of ways to solve this problem and go back to large sprawling dungeons but that, and I am repeating myself here, means you have to accept that some people will struggle more than others. Which Blizzard has shown to be incapable off.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

non-linear dungeons aren't possible anymore because people don't go into dungeons to explore and complete quests but to complete them as fast as possible for whatever bullshit dungeon finder rewards they give out now

That is a simple problem to fix. The whole reason why people are treating every dungeon as a speed run is because of the emblem system. Remove that system and there will be no longer any reason to treat dungeons as speed runs. Instead as a catch up mechanic they could gradually roll out quests that require you to clear once dungeon from previous patches to get some "catch up dungeon set" or simply roll out such sets as cheap crafting recipes so that players could either craft or buy them on the auction house. There is a lot of ways to solve this problem and go back to large sprawling dungeons but that, and I am repeating myself here, means you have to accept that some people will struggle more than others. Which Blizzard has shown to be incapable off.

The problem is that many of the people who want such large, sprawling dungeons no longer play the game. The people playing it now want dungeons that let them race through and get their goodboy points so they can get shiny epic gear from a vendor.

 

[Ravielsk]

The problem is that many of the people who want such large, sprawling dungeons no longer play the game. The people playing it now want dungeons that let them race through and get their goodboy points so they can get shiny epic gear from a vendor.

Yes, but if the success of classic proved anything then it proved that even game design not tailored for the modern ADHD goodboy farmer is still viable. I am sure that if Blizz made even one or two dungeons in the Vanilla style it would bring (back) more people than it would chase away. Fundamentally big dungeons are better than short speed run ones and I have no doubt that the community would eventually recognize that, the only problem is that first Blizzard needs to recognize that, implement it and then stick with it. Not reluctantly make a half-assed experiment that they will abandon at the first moment the forums stop fellating them.

 

[Absinthe]

WoW's pivoting away from the things people liked in classic was by design. Most of the good things of WoW classic were coincidental and largely taken from EQ.
EQ was always about the journey and the community. It wasn't a race to max level to go sit in a queue to get gear to sit in another queue to get gear ad infinitum.

Why do you think they relented on having a classic server for so long? The designers legitimately don't like the part of classic that actually appeals to people.

Actually, a lot of it has to do with the fact that most of the Blizzard development staff left sometime before launch, iirc. It's unclear whether they left of their own accord or because of "restructuring" but a lot of Blizzard devs left to Arenanet to make Guild Wars 1 (and left before GW2 was made, which tried to be a fucking WoW clone) or the Hellgate: London team.

So shortly before release, Blizzard ceased to be Blizzard, and the main people left in charge were the likes of Furor, Tigole, and Enoyis who were "hardcore" guild leaders in Everquest. They wasted no time shitting up the game for their idealized raiding endgame, making excessive grind a part of damn near everything, and shitting up classes. The biggest reason why Dire Maul was a better dungeon than most shit that they came up with later is because it was already designed for the most part by old Blizz back when the WoW team wasn't just absolute raid-whores and they just slapped finishing touches on it for release.

The image doesn't go far enough to explain Tigole (and unmentioned, Furor)'s butthurt, btw. They used to purposely crash EQ servers when they didn't get their way.
If you want an example of what kind of whiner he was, here you go: https://web.archive.org/web/20030610223708/http://www.legacyofsteel.net/newspro/archives/arc27.html
It starts with this and goes on about how you'd expect

(hey, it's almost exactly like the part from the image)

They're also responsible for the Paladin class being utter garbage. Something like a week before launch, in the WoW beta, they completely savaged the entire Paladin class so it would only be a healer in plate and removed all of its offensive abilities. Why? Because they hate hybrids. I'm not joking. Furor actually staged server-crashing protests in EQ because he got colossally butthurt that a Paladin could outtank his Warrior.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

because he got colossally butthurt that a Paladin could outtank his Warrior.

The real problem was that EQ warrior just wasn't well designed. It was a good raid tank and... that's it. EQ classes had a lot of good and interesting designs, but warrior sure wasn't one of them. One instance where I definitely prefer the WoW incarnation(essentially a smashed together EQ berserker/warrior) over the EQ one.

 

[Cromwell]

Wishing for a single button rotation tells more about your own lack of ability than the state of class design.

no rotation at all would be best. You use what the situation requires and instead of having two situations (ae / fewer than 3 mobs) you have more of those.

 

[Gregz]

I wish I had waited for TBC. I sperged Classic hard for about 7 months and I’m still burned out from it.

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

So... no one is talking about Burning Crusade coming out?



I have to admit, nostalgia hit me pretty hard when I saw this. Zangarmarsh, Nagrand, Blade's Edge, inspecting ore for blue gems there, that Amani War Bear from Zul'Aman... And all the Heroic dungeons, Coilfang Reservoir, Auchindoun, Tempest Keep, hell, I still remember the Shattered Halls exact layout lmao.

And of course, Karazhan >>> all of Vanilla group content basically.

Anyway I'll stick with ESO, a game in an infinitely more interesting fantasy setting, which makes so many things better than WoW it's not even funny. (starting with past content being valid all the time, avoiding this thread's very issue as of now)

https://www.pcgamer.com/world-of-warcraft-classics-return-to-the-burning-crusade-has-entered-beta/

World Of Warcraft Classic's return to The Burning Crusade has entered beta


By Natalie Clayton a day ago

Through The Dark Portal once more.

(Image credit: Blizzard)
World Of Warcraft Classic is returning to Outland—and if you're particularly eager to return to The Burning Crusade, you can now opt-in to Blizzard's closed beta for the throwback expansion.

Spoiler

Beta testing for WoW Classic's first expansion began this month, Blizzard revealed over on the game's forums (via Wowhead). While still a closed beta, you can sign up to be chosen for beta testing by hitting opt-in over on the expansion's store page, adding your name to the pool of players randomly chosen to receive testing invites.


revealed at BlizzCon earlier this year, though we still don't know when The Dark Portal will reopen for Blizzard's nostalgic client. Technically, it'll be a whole new branch of WoW Classic—servers for just the vanilla experience will remain, alongside those that push forwards into WoW's first expansion.

While unconfirmed, we reckon The Burning Crusade will eventually launch later this summer or fall. You'll be able to boost one existing Classic character to 60 to jump into Outland immediately, with post-launch updates to drip in over the coming months.

 

[Fedora Master]

What's the point if they're going to re-iterate the addon cycle again?

 

[Ninjerk]

Woo, badge grinding and daily quests. No thanks.