Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[Roguey]

Game economy encompasses more than just buying and selling things. Things like rarity of item drops, crafting recipes, and regularity of health/ammo pickups all fall under the heading of economy. It's actually one of the most important things to get right in a game, as it creates a push and pull with the player. When you have to switch weapons in Doom to better utilize the available ammo, that's economy. When you run through a difficult gauntlet and there's a healing fountain at the end of it, that's economy. It was pretty obvious Tim never cared about economy all the way back in Fallout, but that's not something to be proud of.

Economies matter a little in RPGs but not much. There is no western RPG with a great economy unless we're talking something like Deus Ex which severely limits the ways in which you can engage with it.

I also don't really find it fun to start off as a deadbroke character and to end as a deadbroke character (unless I intentionally made myself deadbroke buying a ton of stuff before the point of no return).

 

[Harthwain]

Economies matter a little in RPGs but not much. There is no western RPG with a great economy unless we're talking something like Deus Ex which severely limits the ways in which you can engage with it.

Space Rangers 2? Starsector? These two are the best RPGs with great economies I can think of. Like, the actual economies.

That said, in pretty much any game you will reach a point when you have enough money to buy top stuff (and more). Even in real life it is possible to keep multiplying money, provided you manage to break free from not having enough money to do so in the beginning. You know, "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer"?

 

[toucanplay]

I want to watch these videos but there's just something about Tim Cain's mannerisms. He's so offputtingly smug and bitchy. Like a lot of poofs who try to emulate bitchy high status women. And he can't tone that down to be informative because like all bum bandits he feels the world simultaneously owes him tolerance just for existing and attacks him for not being straight. It makes him unwatchable for me.

I agree. I've met poofs like him who somehow get positions of power and have a huge grudge against anyone who doesn't think arse buggery is a great pass time. Which manifests as this very petulant bitchy personality that comes out whenever these people feel threatened. Which is all the time. I absolutely get that vibe from some of Tim's videos. Especially when he talks about how people are "allowed" to critique him and his work as if he has any actual power to stop me from saying Outer Worlds was shit that proves Cain was carried by better people.

Evaluation by vibes is classic hairless twink behaviour, so I guess I'll defer to the expert.

 

[Wesp5]

When you have to switch weapons in Doom to better utilize the available ammo, that's economy.

And they messed this up in the new Dooms! You have to keep demons alive because maybe you would later need the completely illiogical items they drop on death...

 

[Jacov]

I agree with Tim that it's hard to balance RPG economies, because RPGs have a lot of variables, and it's really hard to account for all of them. On the other hand, modern developers don't even try. Merchants have infinitely replenishable goods, they have infinite money, and they buy all that crap that you've found in dungeons with no hesitation. In addition, this modern trend of showering players with as much shiny shit as possible to trigger their monkey brain, so that they'll keep «pecking that button» for more dopamine, doesn't help either.

I want to see more games with interesting decisions, like Pathologic 2 (haven't played the first game that much, so can't say how good the economy was there). Yeah, it's not an RPG and it follows a fairly linear plot structure (important events are tied to certain days), but the economy of this game holds solid up until the final days, where all hell let loose. There is money, but most NPCs will only barter with you. At the point when you become more or less rich — BOOM — the army is here and all money is replaced with roblox dollars, so your wealth means nothing now, sorry . Items are rare and are always in demand — you use them for your own wellbeing and to heal other NPCs (you're a doctor). You can go around killing people and robbing houses, but your reputation will tank, and no one will trade with you, when you are lying on the floor, dying from the plague and in need of those oh so sweet pills.

 

[Roguey]

On the other hand, modern developers don't even try. Merchants have infinitely replenishable goods, they have infinite money, and they buy all that crap that you've found in dungeons with no hesitation.

This design has existed since the 80s.

Styg put a bunch of annoying restrictions in Underrail that a lot of people hated, resulting in a parody character of them in the game (the guy overburdened by junk loot who slowly walks from merchant to merchant to offload it). The restrictions were phased out in most games because most people find them annoying and would prefer an economy that favors the player over nuisances.

 

[Trans-Financial-Man]

I want to watch these videos but there's just something about Tim Cain's mannerisms. He's so offputtingly smug and bitchy. Like a lot of poofs who try to emulate bitchy high status women. And he can't tone that down to be informative because like all bum bandits he feels the world simultaneously owes him tolerance just for existing and attacks him for not being straight. It makes him unwatchable for me.

I agree. I've met poofs like him who somehow get positions of power and have a huge grudge against anyone who doesn't think arse buggery is a great pass time. Which manifests as this very petulant bitchy personality that comes out whenever these people feel threatened. Which is all the time. I absolutely get that vibe from some of Tim's videos. Especially when he talks about how people are "allowed" to critique him and his work as if he has any actual power to stop me from saying Outer Worlds was shit that proves Cain was carried by better people.

Evaluation by vibes is classic hairless twink behaviour, so I guess I'll defer to the expert.

I've been around long enough to know if someone is getting pissy and insecure about what you said about a completely different person it's because they feel they have similar traits. I'm not a poo picker though so I have no clue what you people think in between bouts of arse pain.

 

[Bulo]

Game economy encompasses more than just buying and selling things. Things like rarity of item drops, crafting recipes, and regularity of health/ammo pickups all fall under the heading of economy. It's actually one of the most important things to get right in a game, as it creates a push and pull with the player. When you have to switch weapons in Doom to better utilize the available ammo, that's economy. When you run through a difficult gauntlet and there's a healing fountain at the end of it, that's economy. It was pretty obvious Tim never cared about economy all the way back in Fallout, but that's not something to be proud of.

I felt this during my foray into The Outer Worlds. I began to buy lockpicks whenever I saw them at a vendor but discovered very quickly that there was no point in actively trying to collect them because those vendors' stock replenished infinitely and I would never be at a loss as a result. I realise that from a design perspective it's a balancing act between the sort of half-absent slack-jawed tongue-poking casual player and people who actually want to play pretend but I dislike it when games incentivise me to stop thinking. It's a real turn-off

 

[Jacov]

On the other hand, modern developers don't even try. Merchants have infinitely replenishable goods, they have infinite money, and they buy all that crap that you've found in dungeons with no hesitation.

This design has existed since the 80s.

Styg put a bunch of annoying restrictions in Underrail that a lot of people hated, resulting in a parody character of them in the game (the guy overburdened by junk loot who slowly walks from merchant to merchant to offload it). The restrictions were phased out in most games because most people find them annoying and would prefer an economy that favors the player over nuisances.

And it didn't work. I'm a loot goblin at heart, and even with minimal strength and no mercantile skill I always have thousands of charons.

What I'm saying is I think RPG economies should be more restrictive (if it's appropriate). It can be beneficial for the overall design. Look at these hypothetical situations:
1) An opportunity to backstab your employer for more money, but you lose reputation.
2) A hard fight, where you can use a certain consumable to make it easier, but this consumable is rare and can be useful in other, harder fights.
3) A trapped chest that has treasure inside, but requires you to waste resources to open it and not die.

Mundane stuff. However, if you are broke and in constant need of money, the decision making process while dealing with these situations will be more engaging for you. You'll need to think more about what you do.

 

[Roguey]

Mundane stuff. However, if you are broke and in constant need of money, the decision making process while dealing with these situations will be more engaging for you. You'll need to think more about what you do.

Not really.

1) If I don't care about the group I'll lose the rep, otherwise I won't.
2) Almost everyone hoards consumables and will never use one under any circumstance.
3) Open the chest of course, there's stuff inside.

Most developers are against "you should be able to brickwall yourself and not be able to complete this game if you make too many poor decisions." VD does that with his games, and now one of his big concerns is how he'll have to close shop if Colony Ship doesn't sell a lot more copies than it has been.

 

[Jacov]

Mundane stuff. However, if you are broke and in constant need of money, the decision making process while dealing with these situations will be more engaging for you. You'll need to think more about what you do.

Not really.

1) If I don't care about the group I'll lose the rep, otherwise I won't.
2) Almost everyone hoards consumables and will never use one under any circumstance.
3) Open the chest of course, there's stuff inside.

Most developers are against "you should be able to brickwall yourself and not be able to complete this game if you make too many poor decisions." VD does that with his games, and now one of his big concerns is how he'll have to close shop if Colony Ship doesn't sell a lot more copies than it has been.

It's up for interpretation of course. One can come up with numerous other situations like that.

I just like games that actually punish me for making poor decisions (it's not a kink, I promise) and reward me for being smart. I obviously can't expect this from AAA — everyone is smart and special in those games. So I get my dose from indies.

As for VD, I'm forever grateful to him and his colleagues. AoD is one of the best modern RPGs I've played. And if he dies of starvation even despite our efforts to not let him do so, he will be remembered

 

[mindx2]

I want to watch these videos but there's just something about Tim Cain's mannerisms. He's so offputtingly smug and bitchy. Like a lot of poofs who try to emulate bitchy high status women. And he can't tone that down to be informative because like all bum bandits he feels the world simultaneously owes him tolerance just for existing and attacks him for not being straight. It makes him unwatchable for me.

I agree. I've met poofs like him who somehow get positions of power and have a huge grudge against anyone who doesn't think arse buggery is a great pass time. Which manifests as this very petulant bitchy personality that comes out whenever these people feel threatened. Which is all the time. I absolutely get that vibe from some of Tim's videos. Especially when he talks about how people are "allowed" to critique him and his work as if he has any actual power to stop me from saying Outer Worlds was shit that proves Cain was carried by better people.

Disagree. I've actually met the man and he was very pleasant during our conversation even when Codexian questions were asked. Never came across as anything but passionate about his craft. Even his short time back here on the Codex was nice and wish he would have stuck around.

 

[Infinitron]

I talk about the design and coding of the system I use to structure and implement quests in role playing games.

 

[Wesp5]

Tim never cared about economy all the way back in Fallout, but that's not something to be proud of.

I felt this during my foray into The Outer Worlds. I began to buy lockpicks whenever I saw them at a vendor but discovered very quickly that there was no point in actively trying to collect them because those vendors' stock replenished infinitely and I would never be at a loss as a result.

That's not the worst thing about TOW. As far as I remember lockpicks and hackitems were lying around all over the place, no need to buy anything! It would do a lot for my immersion when stuff could only be found in logical places.

 

[Cohesion]

I want to watch these videos but there's just something about Tim Cain's mannerisms. He's so offputtingly smug and bitchy. Like a lot of poofs who try to emulate bitchy high status women. And he can't tone that down to be informative because like all bum bandits he feels the world simultaneously owes him tolerance just for existing and attacks him for not being straight. It makes him unwatchable for me.

I agree. I've met poofs like him who somehow get positions of power and have a huge grudge against anyone who doesn't think arse buggery is a great pass time. Which manifests as this very petulant bitchy personality that comes out whenever these people feel threatened. Which is all the time. I absolutely get that vibe from some of Tim's videos. Especially when he talks about how people are "allowed" to critique him and his work as if he has any actual power to stop me from saying Outer Worlds was shit that proves Cain was carried by better people.

Disagree. I've actually met the man and he was very pleasant during our conversation even when Codexian questions were asked. Never came across as anything but passionate about his craft. Even his short time back here on the Codex was nice and wish he would have stuck around.

This. Tim is a cool dude, why are you piling on him ?
He is not dangerhair nor promotes globohomo. He is just a coder wishing to be left alone.

 

[cdx]

I want to watch these videos but there's just something about Tim Cain's mannerisms. ...

Tim doesn't annoy me, but similarly I've noticed that I find this guest repulsive due to his mannerisms. It's more about unpleasant experiences I've had than about the person himself, he's reminding me of unpleasant people who behaved similarly. "This guy behaves like that other shitty person, probably he's shitty, too".

A tip for NwNgger and anyone who can't watch stuff because of the way people talk, at double speed you can still get all the useful info while any mannerisms a lot less noticeable.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Making fun of someone because of their mannerism is so unnecessary mean.

 

[Infinitron]

I talk about the pros and cons of levels caps in role playing games.

 

[Roguey]

"Interestingly though, from the same camp of people who hate level caps and really want unlimited advancement, those are often the first people who complain about level scaling."

Cain is obviously a level cap guy. A couple of people in the comments note that he doesn't mention soft caps, when the xp requirement to reach the next level becomes so large that you would have to grind for an incredibly long time to reach it (if the game even allows for grinding; you could simply run out of content that gives xp). And Bloodlines was an RPG with no levels whatsoever, but gaining xp was not systematic, so you couldn't reach a point where you had five dots in everything (unless you're cheating).

 

[Trans-Financial-Man]

"Interestingly though, from the same camp of people who hate level caps and really want unlimited advancement, those are often the first people who complain about level scaling."

Cain is obviously a level cap guy. A couple of people in the comments note that he doesn't mention soft caps, when the xp requirement to reach the next level becomes so large that you would have to grind for an incredibly long time to reach it (if the game even allows for grinding; you could simply run out of content that gives xp). And Bloodlines was an RPG with no levels whatsoever, but gaining xp was not systematic, so you couldn't reach a point where you had five dots in everything (unless you're cheating).

I'm a level cap guy too. As someone who's dabbled in games design I understand that design is finite. As a designer you will reach a wall in CRPGs where you just can't think of or anticipate an outcome. So it's sensible to have a cap. I can predict what a tenth level paladin from 3.5 might do. But I will very rarely be able to predict what a twentieth level paladin/tenth level ranger dual class will do. I think it's good to design an RPG for a level range and keep the player to that. You'll always have them do unintended things no matter what but you can at least limit that.

 

[0sacred]

you want level caps if characters get interesting stuff on level up, like D&D and other class based systems.

 

[Morgoth]

Tim just really got an opinion on everything.


Kinda wished he would do a weekly rather than a daily on his vlog, but in exchange go

 

[v1c70r14]

He is not dangerhair nor promotes globohomo.

He is and does, but videos of that nature are censored and no discussion of them are allowed. If I posted his globohomo video here I'd probably get banned.

 

[__scribbles__]

I talk about what a generalist is and why having fewer of them in the game industry is causing some issues.

 

[Roguey]

As a generalist himself who worked with teams full of generalists naturally Tim misses them.