CD Projekt's Cyberpunk 2077 Update 2.0 + Phantom Liberty Expansion Thread

[Mebrilia the Viera Queen]

Where do you see me praising CD Project Red? I also didn't say they didn't try to deceive customers regarding the state on consoles, which is a given. However, I thought we were talking about the game itself? At least in our exchange.

In fact i am answering to you and not others and we are having a conversation despite we think differently.

Now you did not expect an RPG i did. False expectations? Not quite because the info was pretty clear till the first trailer of E3 that got everyone out of guard. I may have judged you badly as you had not expectation and clearly you took this game not expecting what i were expecting when the trailers and the interviews went out. So ill take back any harsh tone i may have used to you.

About the state of the game. COnsole are just part of the problem but there are a lot of people that are lamenting the game is not what they advertised for.

 

[Turjan]

What choice and concequence you have? A fucking line of dialoguye on the ending?

Spoiler alert:
V will die unless it turns completely in to Jhonny.

All different things that lead in the same direction. Is a binary choice determined by one dialogue the ending will be different depending on what quest you made but in the end that's the ending for you. You can change a single mission how you go there but that will be still the ending. Nothing will change.

I think you misrepresent the endings here. Yes, V will die. But guess what: the game deals with the question what it actually means to die. And there's your choice and consequence.

Problem is cyberpunk is not that. In cyberpunk "What makes me human?" as a story is completely outdated because everybody don't give a damn. You get cybernetics because is cool. Because it improves you. It makes you better and in some case is also for Fashion. That kind of plot is more fitting for Deus ex that is pre Cyberpunk.

The story of this game isn't the question of "what makes me human". It's the question of dying and immortality. What does imortality comprise of? And this question is very "Cyberpunky".

Is the same thing if you think about it. What makes me immortal? Alt says herself while jhonny think it dosn't change nothing Alt answer: It change everything.

So in the end is the same thing the plot has great moment but falls flat on this. This is a world where you can swap totally your body and replace it with a total syntethic one. Now the situation with the Relic and even the Soulkiller is different as it drains you in to data. But in the end is still "What makes me human?" scenario.

Will the fact i am converted in a stream of data makes me have a soul? Is the same hollywood shit all over again.

So yes while is not spelling it properly is another of those: What makes me human? Cyberpunk games again.

Putting it in terms of "soul" is a bit old-fashioned, but one knows what is meant. It's the p-zombie problem, which is quite a knotty problem in philosophy, no small thing. The story is actually quite profound, for a mainstream game it's introducing quite highfalutin' topics.

Just to recap the philosophical problem: scientists and philosophers have a rough outline as to how the brain makes the body do stuff (move, flap its gums to make word noises, etc.), and be "aware" of the world in a neutral sense (i.e. not bump into things, etc.). But you can get robots to do that (or you probably will eventually, AI is a bit vaporwareish for the foreseeable future, but it's bound to happen eventually). All that is programming, theoretically uploadable, no in-principle barrier to it - you could either upload it or get a machine to behave similarly.

But would such a thing be conscious? Would there be anybody home? That's what's meant by "soul" here (and it's pretty much what's traditionally meant by "soul" too). It's Consciuosness with a hypoethetical big 'C.'

Hollywood has indeed treated the problem crudely, but this game doesn't - obviously not since it's based on the cyberpunk genre which is generally written by big-brained folks who've thought deeply about uploading, transhumanism and the whole kit and caboodle (i.e. you're quite wrong that this isn't a cyberpunk genre topic, it's quite properly at home in the game).

You can fault the game for many things, but triviality of subject matter isn't one of them.

Indeed, that the gist of it. I really liked the story and those endings, depressing as they may be. At least for me, it's a thought worth thinking, and that's why I give the game a pass.

 

[Pegultagol]

The matter of soul and immortality and whatnot in games has been done before, and 'Soma', for one, deals with the subject matter with much more impact than this game, and without Keanu, which is a big plus.

 

[Mebrilia the Viera Queen]

The matter of soul and immortality and whatnot in games has been done before, and 'Soma', for one, deals with the subject matter with much more impact than this game, and without Keanu, which is a big plus.

Yes but again you have to consider what the source material is about. People don't waste their time in morality stuff like this in cyberpunk (the pen and paper) nobody gives a fuck about spirituality or soul. This is why the ending felt out of place. That argument could had been perfect in Deus Ex. But again Deus Ex is a whole different setting whit a whole different lore behind.

I may even add.
Cyberpunk the source material is supposed to be High Tech Low life. But still in the whole game seems they left out the cyber par and cranked up the Punk part.

In fact for being a game based in a source material so centered in cybernetics there is little cybernetics to be had.

 

[TheEntitledOne]

Just finished.
It was *ok*.

But so disappointing. Being unfinished and glitchy... ok, we are kinda used to that. But there are so many missed opportunities and terrible design decisions.

Cyberware in this game must be one of the blandest implementations I've seen, most of it only adds some numerical variables to the game. No thermal vision, no camo...
The itemization, scaling, HP bloat, whateverthefuck... kills all sense of progression. Silencers are useless until you get a piece of handheld piece of artillery (how the fuck does a silencer drop 30% of damage?).
Most choices are just flavor

And I *still* enjoyed it. Looks great, models are mostly great, animations too (when they aren't t-posing), writing, plot, etc is passable-good (is not like we get MCA level games every year). Combat can sometimes be enjoyable (when hp bloat doesn't ruin it, mostly for all the extras like quickhands + 'nades).
But I'm not going to rush to replay this.
I expect that mods and turboenhaced edition will improve it a lot, but at best it won't be even half as good as Witcher 3.

 

[DeepOcean]

Johnny seems like a real soul and the game doesnt try to hint there is something defective and inhuman about him, he emotes, he gets angry, he gets sad, he changes and want redemption, that soul thing sounded hollow for me, is he just the engram program trying to manipulate you? Maniipulate you and your emotions? Are those real emotions or simulated ones? An emotion caused by an human brain is different from one simulated by a computer? The game barely touches that, never really builds on that, the soul thing on the game remains way too much woo woo mystical for me. If SoulKiller makes a perfect copy of you, then that soul thing discussion is moot, it is copying your soul. If it just copies the memories and tries to simulate an Ai aproximation based on those memories and isnt actually capable of making a copy that can truly emote and get out of the script of the simulated parameters? If that is the case, we have a problem because that isnt a soul.

However, the game doesnt build on that as the Prologue is just a build up to Keanu Reeves entrance, then Act 2 is is just a quick lets gather the means section with a bunch of disconnected pieces that barely evolve the plot, then, there you go, lets talk about woo woo soul on the very last quests of the game. You never have that sinister feeling of you may be talking with something you truly dont know if it is human but it surely think it is like in SOMA or on Blade Runner where the replicants are stripped out versions of human beings designed to exercise a function with serveral mental parts that were considerated redundant missing, basically human robots and the movie is about that instinct of survival and desperately wanting to live including saving the guy that wanted to kill you to not die alone.

With the way they depict Johnny, there is no real reason to be afraid of being digitalized. The Arasaka ending is indeed the best one if it wasnt for that Arasaka enslavement part. I didnt expect any deep discussion on AAA dumb shooter game about what it means to be a human but when Im there with the game acting all profound while I listen what is the equivalent of a stoner asking "What about the soul, dude?" and woo woo mysticism, well, there are a few prior chapters discussions we missed game to truly reach this point. what were you doing? Oh... sucking Keanu's cock as much as possible.

Besides, Arasasaka is selling the basic version of the Relic, was too much to have a few quests about the limitations, ethical concerns and problems caused by that technology?

 

[CyberWhale]

 

[JustMyOnion]

Cyberpunk is in this weird spot where it's a setting from the 80s so it has to entertain the musings from that time and basically ignore all the advances and findings from neuroscience, psychology etc that have been made in the past decades. So you just have to accept that there's a "soul" and a "cyberspace" and what not.

 

[Mebrilia the Viera Queen]

Cyberpunk is in this weird spot where it's a setting from the 80s so it has to entertain the musings from that time and basically ignore all the advances and findings from neuroscience, psychology etc that have been made in the past decades. So you just have to accept that there's a "soul" and a "cyberspace" and what not.

It has?....WHy it has?..

 

[gurugeorge]

Johnny seems like a real soul and the game doesnt try to hint there is something defective and inhuman about him, he emotes, he gets angry, he gets sad, he changes and want redemption, that soul thing sounded hollow for me, is he just the engram program trying to manipulate you? Maniipulate you and your emotions? Are those real emotions or simulated ones? An emotion caused by an human brain is different from one simulated by a computer? The game barely touches that, never really builds on that, the soul thing on the game remains way too much woo woo mystical for me. If SoulKiller makes a perfect copy of you, then that soul thing discussion is moot, it is copying your soul. If it just copies the memories and tries to simulate an Ai aproximation based on those memories and isnt actually capable of making a copy that can truly emote and get out of the script of the simulated parameters? If that is the case, we have a problem because that isnt a soul.

However, the game doesnt build on that as the Prologue is just a build up to Keanu Reeves entrance, then Act 2 is is just a quick lets gather the means section with a bunch of disconnected pieces that barely evolve the plot, then, there you go, lets talk about woo woo soul on the very last quests of the game. You never have that sinister feeling of you may be talking with something you truly dont know if it is human but it surely think it is like in SOMA or on Blade Runner where the replicants are stripped out versions of human beings designed to exercise a function with serveral mental parts that were considerated redundant missing, basically human robots and the movie is about that instinct of survival and desperately wanting to live including saving the guy that wanted to kill you to not die alone.

With the way they depict Johnny, there is no real reason to be afraid of being digitalized. The Arasaka ending is indeed the best one if it wasnt for that Arasaka enslavement part. I didnt expect any deep discussion on AAA dumb shooter game about what it means to be a human but when Im there with the game acting all profound while I listen what is the equivalent of a stoner asking "What about the soul, dude?" and woo woo mysticism, well, there are a few prior chapters discussions we missed game to truly reach this point. what were you doing? Oh... sucking Keanu's cock as much as possible.

Besides, Arasasaka is selling the basic version of the Relic, was too much to have a few quests about the limitations, ethical concerns and problems caused by that technology?

The question of whether V is just a schmuck being manipulated by a clever program permeates the whole game, and it's not resolved in any of the endings except the one with Johnny riding off into the sunset in V's body. But even that could be looked at as a victory for the engram, it's best victory.

It's a bit like the movie Ex Machina.

Is Johnny a real person (a conscious being with a soul) who's seeking redemption or is he just a program taking over someone's brain with insectile efficiency and making them feel at ease with the gradual takeover by simulating a real human being seeking redemption? I think the devs intend you to feel a cold hard creeping thought at the possibility you might just be being manipulated in many of the dialogues with Johnny, even the grave site scene. Even things like the dog tags, the jolly stuff re. playing with Kelly in the band, all that could just be the engram manipulating you into submission, into sacrificing your brain and body to it.

After all it's established that right at the beginning that that's what the engram is and is doing - it's taking over your brain.

 

[Mebrilia the Viera Queen]

To then the point that Alt tells you basically twice... One at the wodoo boy phase and then to the ending that swapping you in a engram in order to be redownloaded in your body change everything. Alt basically tell you that her soulkiller lives up his name. Meaning: Transfer you in to data killing you as an individual and doing so killing your soul.

What you written sounds very thrilling however is far on how the game presented it. The game basically imply. Oh no you are data now you are a soulless machine!

And that is not in line with the source material at all.

 

[orcinator]

The matter of soul and immortality and whatnot in games has been done before, and 'Soma', for one, deals with the subject matter with much more impact than this game, and without Keanu, which is a big plus.

Soma is just a dime store version of the Spiderman clone saga.
I assume that got referenced in one of the games.

 

[Mefi]

Game comes down on the idea that if it feels pain then it's alive, and with some of the rest of this it's tucked away and I suspect the full arc doesn't get seen by too many even in a haphazard order. For Johnny (or his engram) the pain is in revisiting his fuck-ups. 'This is the only thing I've not fucked up', he tells V. There is the obvious creep of V becoming Johnny, seen in dialogue choices and even the silver arm V starts to sport, but it doesn't seem to be driven by Johnny. He's positive he could take control of V's body far quicker if he chose to, and there's some evidence to support that when he takes over V's body to pull her somewhere safe but doesn't head off out to party for the most part.

The problem with the soul prison is that it isn't a digitised retreat but an attempt to manipulate engrams while they are stored. Why Lizzy Wizzy flips on her husband. What Johnny calls the worst possible thing left for the corps to do to people. So one of the questions I have is how Johnny has been altered while in there because I've not come across anything where he (or someone else) talks about why Arasaka were trying to bring this version of him back to life.

It worked for me as an arc on a longer play through where Johnny doesn't bounce from trying to kill V to being best friends forever within a gig or two. Thought it also played nicely with other themes of control, manipulation, and agency which run through the game on a few levels.

 

[DalekFlay]

What I meant is that, other than the main quest, there wasn't much C&C in FO4. I can't recall any sidequests that had significant C&C. If there were any, they weren't very memorable.

Yeah it was definitely main quest only for the most part. I think your faction of choice had some minor impact on other quests here and there, and some kill or spare type shit, but that's about it. Just saying Cyberpunk has even less outside of the ending, despite a lot of opportunity for more setting/story wise. How this game's gangs and corporations didn't scream "IN DEPTH FACTION SYSTEM" to the designers I have no idea.

 

[DeepOcean]

The question of whether V is just a schmuck being manipulated by a clever program permeates the whole game, and it's not resolved in any of the endings except the one with Johnny riding off into the sunset in V's body. But even that could be looked at as a victory for the engram, it's best victory.

It's a bit like the movie Ex Machina.

Is Johnny a real person (a conscious being with a soul) who's seeking redemption or is he just a program taking over someone's brain with insectile efficiency and making them feel at ease with the gradual takeover by simulating a real human being seeking redemption? I think the devs intend you to feel a cold hard creeping thought at the possibility you might just be being manipulated in many of the dialogues with Johnny, even the grave site scene. Even things like the dog tags, the jolly stuff re. playing with Kelly in the band, all that could just be the engram manipulating you into submission, into sacrificing your brain and body to it.

After all it's established that right at the beginning that that's what the engram is and is doing - it's taking over your brain.

Spoiler

I'm aware of all you said but that isnt an answer to my problem with the soul thing. The game implies on just quick three conversations this interpration you mentioned but the word here is imply and leaves alot of room in there because if the game didnt let room for interpretation, the only logical thing was to say fuck Silverhand and refuse to cooperate with him at all so there wouldnt be a choice in there. Also, Johnny offers a suicide run against Arasaka if you are friendly with him, what would be a strange thing for the engram to do because if you died inside fucking Arasaka, there would be no reconstruction, no magical reboots( it would be an one way journey to Mikoshi of what was left of you after Adam Smasher cut you in half), what supposedly go against the goal of the engram that is replace you with Johnny. Also, this theory doesnt hold up because being hostile to Johnny or being cooperative doesnt increase the hold of the engram and accelerates the process what would be the supposedly objective of the engram. You could to the very end, just say fuck it and ride to the sunset with Panam or go with Arasaka. Johnny only really complains if you go to the Arasaka route.

I dont care or want exactly an explanation, I care about exploration, on MotB, you get to know the story of Akachi, the creation of the wall of the faithless,meet its creator, meet those that oppose to its existance and you can choose how to deal with your curse, it was all about the curse that is the main thing on there, side characters are involved too on the way you deal with the curse and react to your choices, this is good storytelling that offers extensive exploration of the main story issue on a game. The game didnt even needed to tell the truth, only offer enough meat for me to think about it and played with the whole thing before reaching for a final decision.

It felt like the main issue of the game, your predicament and the Johnny situation thing that are the crucial thing in the game were shoved aside in favor of a series of things that didnt go anywhere anyway. The Voodoo boys vs NetWatch (You choose which of the two gets fucked but that has zero consequences on the story), remember Yorinabu was trying to sell the Relic to Netwatch... yeah, the game forgets about that pretty quickly, Evelyn dies anyway, sure, it was a cool story but it doesnt evolve the main plot beyond revealing Brigitte, honestly, it should had been a secondary mission, the Panam interception of the transport, in the end, the only thing you win is an explanation that is pratically a repeat of what was already said by Viktor, the Goro missions, they are nice and all but all of that just to meet Hanako. The game needed another entire act or had an act 2 about your problem and the differents sides and interpretations of it, the way it does, feels like they had to take some rabbit out of the hat to not making you wishing to live the only logical end to the story.

This is supposedly to be a game (who am I kidding, it is a movie pretending to be a game), so there is this cool theory that sounds so profound is nice for a movie but really doesnt impress me the least on a video game, especially one with storyfag pretentions. Let's pretend this game actually cares into being a game, on the newest CoD, there is a section on the main campaign where there is some guy telling you the events that happened on your life, if you follow the path the game indicates, everything happens as he says but if you move on another direction, he keeps complaining and demanding you return to the path while the scenery keeps changing and getting weirder and weirder until you discover you had implanted memories. Fucking CoD did this, indie games like Stanley Parable and etc but CDPR cant let you explore the nature of your condition. The only moments they even try to insinuate the whole unreliable narrator thing with Johnny is on the Flashback section but even there, I had a feeling they insinuated that more as an ass cover in case people questioned those sections because they didnt include the whole story of them because the unreliable narrator thing disappears on the rest of the game.

I suspect, for them to do what was right for the story they were making, they would need to go way overboard on keanu's lines and that would mean a few more millions of dollars so they shipped what they felt was good for what it was. The game, to me, ended feeling like a linear movie in the begining followed by walking in circles and then a rush to the end trying to do what it should had done on Act 2, so I felt meh about it . Are individual moments on the three acts that are really well done? Sure, there are (just wish CDPR didnt spoiled half of them) but it doesnt convince as a complete coherent narrative much less one that is for an interactive medium. It was far from being the worst story ever but if you ask me if that compensated the gameplay problems the game has? Nope.

 

[Quillon]

I think the devs intend you to feel a cold hard creeping thought at the possibility you might just be being manipulated in many of the dialogues with Johnny, even the grave site scene. Even things like the dog tags, the jolly stuff re. playing with Kelly in the band, all that could just be the engram manipulating you into submission, into sacrificing your brain and body to it.

And you actually think that would be cool if its the case? If you refuse its just content you miss out on because the narrative doesn't change either way. But go ahead and try to find ways to glorify their linear story.

 

[I ASK INANE QUESTIONS]

Come to think of it... Can we say that "F" is the awesome button of Cyberpunk 2077?

I dunno about that, but what I do know is that there's a special F button in Cyberpunk 2077. A button custom-made for some of the more prestigious codexers.

Spoiler

 

[Twiglard]

Come to think of it... Can we say that "F" is the awesome button of Cyberpunk 2077?

I dunno about that, but what I do know is that there's a special F button in Cyberpunk 2077. A button custom-made for some of the more prestigious codexers.

Spoiler

How about this as a button? We have "you have issues" but still.

 

[Haplo]

The game is not even an RPG. It has a super short mainquest and a staggering low ammount of sidequest you can count them using your fingers. No decision making. A progression like a mediocre looter shooter with watchdog elements.

Do you have a pic of your hands? There are 92 side quests in the game, not including gigs or the NCPD stuff, however counting races, boxing quests or Epistrophy separately. Your hands must look amazing .

Yeah, I also found that statement jarring.
It might not be a very long game, but "super-short" and "staggering low ammount"? Really?
Also makes me question whether that person actually played the game.

 

[Haplo]

Silencers are useless until you get a piece of handheld piece of artillery (how the fuck does a silencer drop 30% of damage?).

Not that I want to defend the itemization in general... but Silencers are actually pretty great. Some of them (available from the start) only drop 15% of base damage.
Meanwhile doing 2 - 2,5 TIMES damage from Stealth. Furthermore, Stealth perks increase these numbers further. And boost headshot damage too. Even crappy silenced revolvers found 10 levels earlier one-shot every enemy vulnerable to headshots from stealth.
Clearing whole areas under Stealth isn't entirely trivial at first, but it soon becomes much easier with a few Perks. Or quickhacks.

 

[Pegultagol]

Spoiler

One of the endings that allows you to decide the fate for who takes over V's body in the end actually puts the player in the role of Johnny, who we aren't sure whether he is in fact real or merely sets of data out to take control. I take that to mean that either
1. The game is even attempting to fool the player, after having convinced V, to achieve the purpose of the engram program
2. The game is indicating that by giving you the control, the engram can transcend its usual assignment with the 'soul' part (you) redeeming the character of Johnny.
It leaves up to the player to interpret the role by giving you the chance to define who Johnny is to you. But already by giving up control to the player, it removes some ambiguity to give more credence to second option, with your journey with Johnny's vessel a testament of sorts.

 

[Bliblablubb]

are 92 side quests in the game

Hold your horses there kiddo. Calling all of those gigs "sidequests" is preem PR department bullshittery.
The majority of those are "after looting a message from a corpse go to X and loot a bawx."
Or Mama-san calling: "V, spend 5 mins going in that house shoot everyone and get me that item. Are you married to doctor yet?"
No sneaking needed, even if you do it might only get you 1k €$ extra.
Just because they get an entry in the quest log, does not make them "side quests". Shit, that number probably even includes purchasable cars.

20-30 is a more realistic number here.

 

[Terenty]

There's fuck all about Johnny being an unreliable narrator and there's zero ruminations on the whole "nature of soul" thing. Stop pulling crap out of your ass and have some standards.

Black Mirror episodes about all that stuff were more interesting than anything in here

 

[Haplo]

20-30 is a more realistic number here.

Which is still far from "staggering low amount".

 

[Haplo]

There's fuck all about Johnny being an unreliable narrator and there's zero ruminations on the whole "nature of soul" thing. Stop pulling crap out of your ass and have some standards.

Black Mirror episodes about all that stuff were more interesting than anything in here

Did you pay attention to the Alt convo at all? She/it very clearly emphasizes that what you saw was only Johny's version of the story and it probably has little in common with what really happened. I was actually surprised how blatantly she/it said that.