Jagged Alliance 3 from Haemimont Games

[InD_ImaginE]

Just mod it

And modding this game is pretty easy as well. I made some numerical adjustment as well on my own

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Just mod it

The problem with this is that the accuracy model is based on the idea that you can aim bursts, which is a little bit absurd. If you've ever fired an automatic weapon IRL (I have) you'd know that precision aiming with hand-held guns in auto- or burst-fire is nonsense. Hence why autofire is primarily used for suppression (there was a sniper who's preferred weapon of choice was a .50cal machinegun, but only because he could mount it and fire single shots very accurately.)

I prefer the Fallout system, where aiming and auto fire are mutually exclusive. If people mod AR/MGs to deal full damage per shot, they really should cap the accuracy of burst fire to 60-70% and remove the ability to target specific body parts.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Just mod it

The problem with this is that the accuracy model is based on the idea that you can aim bursts, which is a little bit absurd. If you've ever fired an automatic weapon IRL (I have) you'd know that precision aiming with hand-held guns in auto- or burst-fire is nonsense. Hence why autofire is primarily used for suppression (there was a sniper who's preferred weapon of choice was a .50cal machinegun, but only because he could mount it and fire single shots very accurately.)

I prefer the Fallout system, where aiming and auto fire are mutually exclusive. If people mod AR/MGs to deal full damage per shot, they really should cap the accuracy of burst fire to 60-70% and remove the ability to target specific body parts.

There are a lot of range between 50% nerf to full damage, currently I am using mod that boost auto/burst by 1.5 (so I guess 75% vanilla).

I do agree that using accuracy cap instead of damage nerf is probably the better thing to do, but for now I guess this has to do. Game rules seems mallable to be modded enough that I won't be surprised people gonna make mods on accuracy calculation as well.

But doing it this way will also means whole can of balance as well. Frankly if I am gonna hit only 50% of the time using burst fire or auto I might as well use 5 snipers teams instead.

 

[ropetight]

Just mod it

The problem with this is that the accuracy model is based on the idea that you can aim bursts, which is a little bit absurd. If you've ever fired an automatic weapon IRL (I have) you'd know that precision aiming with hand-held guns in auto- or burst-fire is nonsense. Hence why autofire is primarily used for suppression (there was a sniper who's preferred weapon of choice was a .50cal machinegun, but only because he could mount it and fire single shots very accurately.)

I prefer the Fallout system, where aiming and auto fire are mutually exclusive. If people mod AR/MGs to deal full damage per shot, they really should cap the accuracy of burst fire to 60-70% and remove the ability to target specific body parts.

In the bursts you can aim first bullet, while others will spread around.
One technique is to try to predict where bullets will go based on recoil of the used weapon.
With the AK's it is viable to aim stationary target's legs at the distances 250-300m; remaining two shots of the burst will go up hitting the target's chest area.
You don't have to be sharpshooter to hit the target, it is easier than hitting target with single bullet at 100m.

So, some sort of realistic system will use short bursts as means to increase hit chance of one bullet of the burst; hits with multiple bullets should be exception.
Longer the burst, bigger the spread.
But it would probably be complicated to present it to the player visually.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

So, some sort of realistic system will use short bursts as means to increase hit chance of one bullet of the burst; hits with multiple bullets should be exception.

Aka how XCom handled it.

 

[ArchAngel]

Just mod it

The problem with this is that the accuracy model is based on the idea that you can aim bursts, which is a little bit absurd. If you've ever fired an automatic weapon IRL (I have) you'd know that precision aiming with hand-held guns in auto- or burst-fire is nonsense. Hence why autofire is primarily used for suppression (there was a sniper who's preferred weapon of choice was a .50cal machinegun, but only because he could mount it and fire single shots very accurately.)

I prefer the Fallout system, where aiming and auto fire are mutually exclusive. If people mod AR/MGs to deal full damage per shot, they really should cap the accuracy of burst fire to 60-70% and remove the ability to target specific body parts.

Ja2 1.13 does it well, if you want to burst or auto only your first bullet has original accuracy, each additional one loses a lot of accuracy. There are weapon mods that reduce this penalty but not by a lot.

 

[ropetight]

So, some sort of realistic system will use short bursts as means to increase hit chance of one bullet of the burst; hits with multiple bullets should be exception.

Aka how XCom handled it.

Something similar.
And yet players are complaining about not hitting anything in X-Com when they have 95% shot.

I think in one of the dev diaries JA3 developers were talking about believability of to hit systems.
Why did they choose this implementation is beyond me.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

It's been a long time but I'm pretty sure burst fire accuracy in Xcom vanilla was capped to 60%. Still, you were always better off firing a three round burst if you had the AP vs aimed shots since 3x60 was better overall than 1x95, and you only needed to tag an enemy once to kill them most times.

It's kinda why I think it's funny to compare the "hardcore"-ness of JA2 vs JA3, these are both games where your Rambo mercs can shrug off 3-5 shots no problem and heal up in a few days, vs. Xcom where 80% of hits are lethal and surviving still heavily gimps all stats and requires months to heal.

 

[ArchAngel]

It's been a long time but I'm pretty sure burst fire accuracy in Xcom vanilla was capped to 60%. Still, you were always better off firing a three round burst if you had the AP vs aimed shots since 3x60 was better overall than 1x95, and you only needed to tag an enemy once to kill them most times.

It's kinda why I think it's funny to compare the "hardcore"-ness of JA2 vs JA3, these are both games where your Rambo mercs can shrug off 3-5 shots no problem and heal up in a few days, vs. Xcom where 80% of hits are lethal and surviving still heavily gimps all stats and requires months to heal.

Not sure, in my team only Steroid can survive that but he has Bodybuilding that gives him 25% damage reduction and has about 50% armor rating. His task is to enter first into all buildings. He lost half his life in last such attempt with 2 guys waiting inside (only one got reaction before he got into cover) and it took him 6 hours with 2 doctors working on him to get back to 100%.

Also I found my first sniper rifle (well technically 2nd but that 1st one didn't give me any ammo and Bobby is still not selling any for it :D) and got my first one shot head shot with it from a prone markswoman (Raven). Fun :D

 

[ArchAngel]

Fuck! JA2 1.13 has million options to turn off or on but it does not have option to turn off chance of mercs not wanting to renew your contract if it falls within 3 days of ending.. I already lost 3 of them, all in irritating times because I cannot afford to give them 7 day contracts.. Then I hire another 1 day one, waste time waiting to arrive (and need to hold SAM sites in control so it does not come at starting area) and then renew all of them per 1 day when I can afford it.. and I only got 4 AIM mercs, none more expensive than about 2100 $ per day. I am day 16 now, I cannot go back to hiring 800$ crap mercs.. And some of them I have leveled up and trained into exactly what I need and then they just leave.. fuck.
I might need to turn on ability to make more IMP characters and hire more of those, this random chance is needless penalty when you are low on cash at start. I just got 2nd mine working in last few days and I am still waiting for it to get up to speed while wasting money on training militia for 2nd city/mine.

 

[agris]

In the bursts you can aim first bullet, while others will spread around.

The devs flatly said that they removed modeling recoil’s effect on bullet trajectory during auto / select-fire bursts.

 

[pm_675]

Fuck! JA2 1.13 has million options to turn off or on but it does not have option to turn off chance of mercs not wanting to renew your contract if it falls within 3 days of ending.. I already lost 3 of them, all in irritating times because I cannot afford to give them 7 day contracts.. Then I hire another 1 day one, waste time waiting to arrive (and need to hold SAM sites in control so it does not come at starting area) and then renew all of them per 1 day when I can afford it.. and I only got 4 AIM mercs, none more expensive than about 2100 $ per day. I am day 16 now, I cannot go back to hiring 800$ crap mercs.. And some of them I have leveled up and trained into exactly what I need and then they just leave.. fuck.
I might need to turn on ability to make more IMP characters and hire more of those, this random chance is needless penalty when you are low on cash at start. I just got 2nd mine working in last few days and I am still waiting for it to get up to speed while wasting money on training militia for 2nd city/mine.

Yo, ArchAngel why don´t you go to any of the numerous threads about JA2 (1.13 or otherwise) on General RPG discussion like this one here and leave the JA3 thread to Ja3?

 

[ropetight]

It's been a long time but I'm pretty sure burst fire accuracy in Xcom vanilla was capped to 60%. Still, you were always better off firing a three round burst if you had the AP vs aimed shots since 3x60 was better overall than 1x95, and you only needed to tag an enemy once to kill them most times.

It's kinda why I think it's funny to compare the "hardcore"-ness of JA2 vs JA3, these are both games where your Rambo mercs can shrug off 3-5 shots no problem and heal up in a few days, vs. Xcom where 80% of hits are lethal and surviving still heavily gimps all stats and requires months to heal.

I could be referring to nuXCom, it was a long time since originals indeed.

JA is great as 80's action movie RPG with slightly more realism than Commando or Rambo (you have to worry about ammo and wounds).
It shifted focus to characters a bit more than XCom, so they are not... Expendables.

 

[ArchAngel]

Fuck! JA2 1.13 has million options to turn off or on but it does not have option to turn off chance of mercs not wanting to renew your contract if it falls within 3 days of ending.. I already lost 3 of them, all in irritating times because I cannot afford to give them 7 day contracts.. Then I hire another 1 day one, waste time waiting to arrive (and need to hold SAM sites in control so it does not come at starting area) and then renew all of them per 1 day when I can afford it.. and I only got 4 AIM mercs, none more expensive than about 2100 $ per day. I am day 16 now, I cannot go back to hiring 800$ crap mercs.. And some of them I have leveled up and trained into exactly what I need and then they just leave.. fuck.
I might need to turn on ability to make more IMP characters and hire more of those, this random chance is needless penalty when you are low on cash at start. I just got 2nd mine working in last few days and I am still waiting for it to get up to speed while wasting money on training militia for 2nd city/mine.

Yo, ArchAngel why don´t you go to any of the numerous threads about JA2 (1.13 or otherwise) on General RPG discussion like this one here and leave the JA3 thread to Ja3?

In that case I would have to leave you all here with your decline thread, at least I insert some talk about a good JA game from time to time and make thread Incline as a result

 

[spectre]

Yo, ArchAngel why don´t you go to any of the numerous threads about JA2 (1.13 or otherwise) on General RPG discussion like this one here and leave the JA3 thread to Ja3?

Eh, I say let him. He's only just discovered the best game in the genre and is trying to score some kool kredits by acting all OG grognard and shet.

 

[ArchAngel]

Yo, ArchAngel why don´t you go to any of the numerous threads about JA2 (1.13 or otherwise) on General RPG discussion like this one here and leave the JA3 thread to Ja3?

Eh, I say let him. He's only just discovered the best game in the genre and is trying to score some kool kredits by acting all OG grognard and shet.

I tried best mod in the genre, I put it off for years listening to all the decliners saying it is too complicated and shit. Then I waited to see if JA3 would be awesome to play that instead of 1.13..
But 1.13 inventory system and whole LBG system is fucking awesome. This is exactly the type of autistic inventory system I always wanted in TTG or RPGs.

 

[PanteraNera]

But 1.13 inventory system and whole LBG system is fucking awesome. This is exactly the type of autistic inventory system I always wanted in TTG or RPGs.

Absolutely.
I really hope that mods bring that into JA3.

I still think it is rather comical that the only other game that does it even better is Escape from Tarkov.

 

[Latro]

Yo, ArchAngel why don´t you go to any of the numerous threads about JA2 (1.13 or otherwise) on General RPG discussion like this one here and leave the JA3 thread to Ja3?

Eh, I say let him. He's only just discovered the best game in the genre and is trying to score some kool kredits by acting all OG grognard and shet.

I agree, we’re no longer a grognard forum. We’re happy consumers eager to wolf down the paltry popamole we once derided.

 

[ArchAngel]

Yo, ArchAngel why don´t you go to any of the numerous threads about JA2 (1.13 or otherwise) on General RPG discussion like this one here and leave the JA3 thread to Ja3?

Eh, I say let him. He's only just discovered the best game in the genre and is trying to score some kool kredits by acting all OG grognard and shet.

I agree, we’re no longer a grognard forum. We’re happy consumers eager to wolf down the paltry popamole we once derided.

And this and BG3 threads unfortunately prove it. At least most people shit on Diablo 4 like we should have.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I agree, we’re no longer a grognard forum. We’re happy consumers eager to wolf down the paltry popamole we once derided.

In fairness, many Codexers still detest the Baldur's Gate games, remaining true to the classic D&D/AD&D Gold Box adaptations, and perhaps also The Eye of the Beholder DM-likes, the two Dark Sun games, and a few other worthwhile games licensed by TSR.

 

[Lemming42]

Keep trying to come back to this game but something about the combat just feels unsatisfying, and the non-combat parts of the game are more of a hassle than fun.

Love the characters and voice acting so much that I keep trying anyway. MONICA SONDERGAARD MOVING.

 

[spectre]

Keep trying to come back to this game but something about the combat just feels unsatisfying, and the non-combat parts of the game are more of a hassle than fun.

I can feel that. Having to re-do all the starter shit just feels like too much of a bother.

When it comes to combat, I think it's all the little bits adding up.
Stamina is out of the picture, which doesn't sound like a big deal, but in JA2 friendlies and enemies became more exhausted from wounds and as the fight dragged on,
even sometimes collapsing. I think it added that bit of oomph to the way firefights played out. As it is, wounds no longer seem to deteriorate anyone's
performance all that much, unless it applies a status effect.
Then there's no more rushing to get bandaged up because bleeding out is no longer a constant threat and even if you're all shot up, it'll get quickly doctored up.
It's like the stakes are no longer there, they even did away with crows and corpses (I think an npc makes a comment on this),
which isn't terribly important, but still served as that grim reminder that it's not all fun and games.

In fundamental terms, in JA2 you didn't even want to get touched by a bullet because stat loss from critical hits was scary, and here,
you even have a perk (imo, these were a mistake) that lets you dish out more damage by running around wounded.
Correct me if I'm wrong, cause it just occurred to me and I can't be bothered to check, but it seems that the mercs no longer comment about bullets nearly missing them.

Then there's stuff like enemies being conveniently divided into classes, telling you exactly who does what in the next turn - another unnecessarily "gamey" thing.
Also, could be just me, but reaction shots and overwatch all feel very mechanical, it's like somebody else is doing the shooting and not you.
Makes it feel wooden and automatic.

Then there's the matter of sneaking being completely flat (seriously, they're all blind and deaf in Africa, pick a perk and wear camo and it feels like cheating),
night combat not being much different from daytime, etc. I could go on a bit more, but no point.

 

[Beowulf]

In fundamental terms, in JA2 you didn't even want to get touched by a bullet because stat loss from critical hits was scary, and here,
you even have a perk (imo, these were a mistake) that lets you dish out more damage by running around wounded.
Correct me if I'm wrong, cause it just occurred to me and I can't be bothered to check, but it seems that the mercs no longer comment about bullets nearly missing them.

You are right - they don't. Because near misses don't do anything. There is no area suppresion, it is only applied as a status effect from flashbangs, AR's auto-fire and MG's long bursts. And perhaps shooting your enemies in the groin, but I might have mixed it with a different status effect.
That's the biggest mechanical difference from JA2 - the fights in Arulco felt more organic, but in Gran Chien they are more mechanical due to the perks and special statuses usage.

 

[ArchAngel]

In Incline news 1.13 is crazy! I liberated top left SAM site and Mine and game sent a stack of 69 (!) soldiers at me.
And I didn't even get a chance to fill them all with militia. At least I got additional free Merc there that is part of 1.13 mod and it seems I will need to let that mine fall and do some partisan tactics by waiting for the stack to split up. I got a decent 8 man squad now and I can take on 15 or so enemies without casualties unless I get unlucky.

If I can keep this mine I can finally hire a small team of top mercs to start clearing right side of the map south of Dressen.

 

[spectre]

You are right - they don't. Because near misses don't do anything. There is no area suppresion, it is only applied as a status effect from flashbangs, AR's auto-fire and MG's long bursts. And perhaps shooting your enemies in the groin, but I might have mixed it with a different status effect.
That's the biggest mechanical difference from JA2 - the fights in Arulco felt more organic, but in Gran Chien they are more mechanical due to the perks and special statuses usage.

Well, they didn't do that much in vanilla JA2, iirc they actually unlocked in a later 1.13 build, making machineguns actually worth a damn.
But at least it registered in the system. That's tangent anyway, I was more about the overall feel it produced.

That's what you get when your system is based on Firaxis' excom and only very loosely on the game you're allegedly remaking.
Cue: modern gamers wouldn't get it, so that's why we did it like this, I mean ffs, that's almost 25 years ago, most of them weren't even alive.