Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Shadenuat]

Kinda meh dungon even though boggarts are funny guys. Same problem as cyclops - area with boggarts is just boggarts.

 

[Desiderius]

After you get keen
And outflank
And seize the moment and build party composition appropriately (combat reflexes, improved crit and what bab? +8?) it all can work

But killing 150 hp wolves on Unfair early is a lot easely done with giant friggin axe and 3d8 base damage + full STR modifier etc.

Level 5 pal gets keen weapon divine bond for a few rounds, so that’s where I was seeing it first. The big outflank/seize chains really come together around Season. I don’t like taking improved crit because you never know when it’s just going to come on the weapon itself.

 

[Desiderius]

Kinda meh dungon even though boggarts are funny guys. Same problem as cyclops - area with boggarts is just boggarts.

Obv rushed area. Nothing hidden behind perception checks, no interesting gear other than the nunchucks at beginning. No quests. Reminds me of Dead Marshes on LOTRO when they’d run out of money to pay devs.

It is actually a difficulty level or so above surrounding areas if you’re not targeting will effectively yet.

 

[Lawntoilet]

After you get keen
And outflank
And seize the moment and build party composition appropriately (combat reflexes, improved crit and what bab? +8?) it all can work

But killing 150 hp wolves on Unfair early is a lot easely done with giant friggin axe and 3d8 base damage + full STR modifier etc.

Level 5 pal gets keen weapon divine bond for a few rounds, so that’s where I was seeing it first. The big outflank/seize chains really come together around Season. I don’t like taking improved crit because you never know when it’s just going to come on the weapon itself.

Magus also gets easy access to Keen enchants at level 5. But at lower levels your base weapon damage dice do matter more, plus Enlarge is only a level 1 spell so you can take advantage of big-dice weapons early on and then choose to critfish when you have more options to improve crit range and more abilities/team feats triggered on a crit.

 

[Desiderius]

Would agree but still can’t figure out how to rate comments.

 

[Desiderius]

Would agree but still can’t figure out how to rate comments.

That was fast.

 

[smaug]

Would agree but still can’t figure out how to rate comments.

That was fast.

How does it feel to brofist?

 

[Desiderius]

After you get keen
And outflank
And seize the moment and build party composition appropriately (combat reflexes, improved crit and what bab? +8?) it all can work

But killing 150 hp wolves on Unfair early is a lot easely done with giant friggin axe and 3d8 base damage + full STR modifier etc.

Level 5 pal gets keen weapon divine bond for a few rounds, so that’s where I was seeing it first. The big outflank/seize chains really come together around Season. I don’t like taking improved crit because you never know when it’s just going to come on the weapon itself.

Magus also gets easy access to Keen enchants at level 5. But at lower levels your base weapon damage dice do matter more, plus Enlarge is only a level 1 spell so you can take advantage of big-dice weapons early on and then choose to critfish when you have more options to improve crit range and more abilities/team feats triggered on a crit.

You learn to love the crit chain when you’re praying the Cacophanus Call gets through the SR on the big angry Owlbear in Season before it mauls poor Val and all of a sudden it’s dead.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

You need to at least buff to get your AB, damage, and AC high enough to matter. Mix things up too so you can target Touch AC, deny certain defenses to enemies (Shatter Defenses, Prescient Attack, etc.), That's part of the math of the system.
Same with making sure your CC actually lands and matters, you have to debuff and target the right saves on the right enemies. If you're going to ignore these huge pieces of the system (which seems like basically you're ignoring all magic) then you'll obviously struggle on higher difficulties.

I do some slight buffing, like Bless and the Bard's song, but I don't want to do more than that. Buffing is extremely uncool lore-wise for classes not based around that. Cool fighters from movies/book/etc aren't cool because they buffed themselves or had others do so, they are cool because of their own inherent skills. If you are role-playing a fighter, your power should come from your fighter abilities (AB, damage, AC, hps, feats, etc), not some bullshit buffs applied to you by some other suckers. If the latter is the case, to make things simple for you tools, you can take any couch potato, and buff him enough, and he will be just as tough as the best fighter. That is NOT what RPGs are about.

lol git gud

My good man, you confuse munchkinism for skill. Just because you rolled a 10 class munchkin char, and cast every single spell in the book every single fight, and drank every single potion, that doesn't mean you have skill. Only that you have no taste.

Stat inflation is a natural way of fighting an issue of a system where player characters stat inflation, due to absolute freedom of character building, where one character can do 70 damage and another 750 damage per hit will turn low stat monsters into bloody paste in unlimited numbers.

So your argument is basically: they fucked up on balance and allowed munchkinism, so to balance that out (no pun intended), they then fucked up on monster difficulty? What is this, i don't even ...

 

[smaug]

a TT game translated into a crpg will always involve balance issues, hence the stat bloat

3.5 is unbalanced naturally no?

 

[Yosharian]

To be fair I think it's an issue that Kingmaker doesn't have any automated buffing scripts. Nearly 20 years since Baldur's Gate and the CRPG industry still hasn't figured out how to make buffing less frustrating/time-consuming.

 

[Crichton]

You need to at least buff to get your AB, damage, and AC high enough to matter. Mix things up too so you can target Touch AC, deny certain defenses to enemies (Shatter Defenses, Prescient Attack, etc.), That's part of the math of the system.
Same with making sure your CC actually lands and matters, you have to debuff and target the right saves on the right enemies. If you're going to ignore these huge pieces of the system (which seems like basically you're ignoring all magic) then you'll obviously struggle on higher difficulties.

I do some slight buffing, like Bless and the Bard's song, but I don't want to do more than that. Buffing is extremely uncool lore-wise for classes not based around that. Cool fighters from movies/book/etc aren't cool because they buffed themselves or had others do so, they are cool because of their own inherent skills. If you are role-playing a fighter, your power should come from your fighter abilities (AB, damage, AC, hps, feats, etc), not some bullshit buffs applied to you by some other suckers. If the latter is the case, to make things simple for you tools, you can take any couch potato, and buff him enough, and he will be just as tough as the best fighter. That is NOT what RPGs are about.

lol git gud

My good man, you confuse munchkinism for skill. Just because you rolled a 10 class munchkin char, and cast every single spell in the book every single fight, and drank every single potion, that doesn't mean you have skill. Only that you have no taste.

Stat inflation is a natural way of fighting an issue of a system where player characters stat inflation, due to absolute freedom of character building, where one character can do 70 damage and another 750 damage per hit will turn low stat monsters into bloody paste in unlimited numbers.

So your argument is basically: they fucked up on balance and allowed munchkinism, so to balance that out (no pun intended), they then fucked up on monster difficulty? What is this, i don't even ...

I share your distaste for spending 5 minutes buffing for a 30 second encounter, but the solution is simple; play on a lower difficulty. On Core Rules, the AI is equally stupid but encounters have less absurd stats; you'll only need to pre-buff for 5% of encounters and most of those (ghost-wizard, Demon-father guy) are optional.

 

[Lawntoilet]

I do some slight buffing, like Bless and the Bard's song, but I don't want to do more than that. Buffing is extremely uncool lore-wise for classes not based around that. Cool fighters from movies/book/etc aren't cool because they buffed themselves or had others do so, they are cool because of their own inherent skills... you can take any couch potato, and buff him enough, and he will be just as tough as the best fighter. That is NOT what RPGs are about.

I understand and sympathize but that is a reality of the 3.PF D&D system, not a problem with the game per se. If you consider it a foundation built on sand then fair enough but you are severely gimping your playthrough and I think you'd enjoy the game more if you drop the difficulty a bit to compensate.

My good man, you confuse munchkinism for skill. Just because you rolled a 10 class munchkin char, and cast every single spell in the book every single fight, and drank every single potion, that doesn't mean you have skill. Only that you have no taste.



So your argument is basically: they fucked up on balance and allowed munchkinism, so to balance that out (no pun intended), they then fucked up on monster difficulty? What is this, i don't even ...

Character-building and identifying which buffs to cast at what times, and which enemy defenses to target, are skills in this system- 3.PF encourages and rewards munchkinism. In a DMless CRPG it's the logical result of using 3.PF as a base.

To be fair I think it's an issue that Kingmaker doesn't have any automated buffing scripts. Nearly 20 years since Baldur's Gate and the CRPG industry still hasn't figured out how to make buffing less frustrating/time-consuming.

I realize it's PnP and not a CRPG (yet, until Solasta is released), but this is why I love the Concentration mechanic from D&D 5e. It logically limits buffing and removes so much tedium from important fights.

 

[deuxhero]

On the other hand, concentration renders loads of spells pointless. Anything that needs concentration and isn't the absolute best buff is instant trash.

 

[Lawntoilet]

On the other hand, concentration renders loads of spells pointless. Anything that needs concentration and isn't the absolute best buff is instant trash.

Depends on context and on how many casters are available in your party. Protection from Evil is better than Haste in some situations (good news for Paladins and Eldritch Knights). So is Fly or Invisibility but probably more so in PnP than a CRPG. And sometimes Animate Objects is better than any of the above spells, sometimes not.
Some spells are indeed total shit because they're concentration, but overall I think it is a good mechanic because it removes so much faffing about and it reduces the importance of buffing for martials, therefore allowing them to shine more based strictly on their martial-ness even if nobody casts Stoneskin or Blur on them.

 

[entr0py]

To be fair I think it's an issue that Kingmaker doesn't have any automated buffing scripts. Nearly 20 years since Baldur's Gate and the CRPG industry still hasn't figured out how to make buffing less frustrating/time-consuming.

TBH at least thats something that Deadfire did right with the scripts that you can fully customize. Every buff you gonna use in each fight will get applied right away pretty much automatically if you took the time and set it up once.

Very different topic: I see you guys really dig bards and say they are a staple of every good party. Thing is I love bards but in Pathfinder what is their niche so that they are kind of a must? Is it just the bard song which gives +1/2/3/4 to AB/dmg and the useful buffs or am I missing something? +2-3 AB is nothing to scoff at, but I don't think that alone worth a party slot and the magical buffs can be covered by wizards/alchemists so I feel like I'm missing something. Do you guys mix them with other classes? Does an eldritch knight get bard progression, or what? Thanks in advance for enlightening me!

 

[Desiderius]

I do some slight buffing, like Bless and the Bard's song, but I don't want to do more than that. Buffing is extremely uncool lore-wise for classes not based around that. Cool fighters from movies/book/etc aren't cool because they buffed themselves or had others do so, they are cool because of their own inherent skills... you can take any couch potato, and buff him enough, and he will be just as tough as the best fighter. That is NOT what RPGs are about.

I understand and sympathize but that is a reality of the 3.PF D&D system, not a problem with the game per se. If you consider it a foundation built on sand then fair enough but you are severely gimping your playthrough and I think you'd enjoy the game more if you drop the difficulty a bit to compensate.

My good man, you confuse munchkinism for skill. Just because you rolled a 10 class munchkin char, and cast every single spell in the book every single fight, and drank every single potion, that doesn't mean you have skill. Only that you have no taste.



So your argument is basically: they fucked up on balance and allowed munchkinism, so to balance that out (no pun intended), they then fucked up on monster difficulty? What is this, i don't even ...

Character-building and identifying which buffs to cast at what times, and which enemy defenses to target, are skills in this system- 3.PF encourages and rewards munchkinism. In a DMless CRPG it's the logical result of using 3.PF as a base.

To be fair I think it's an issue that Kingmaker doesn't have any automated buffing scripts. Nearly 20 years since Baldur's Gate and the CRPG industry still hasn't figured out how to make buffing less frustrating/time-consuming.

I realize it's PnP and not a CRPG (yet, until Solasta is released), but this is why I love the Concentration mechanic from D&D 5e. It logically limits buffing and removes so much tedium from important fights.

There’s actually some play in the mechanics for pure fighter types if you take advantage of the flanking and intimidate line of feats. Freebooters can accentuate that approach nicely. Weapon and armor training are also somewhat underrated if still underpowered in the grand scheme.

Making Crane Wing’s +4 a shield bonus would cut out so much of the bullshit.

 

[Lawntoilet]

I do some slight buffing, like Bless and the Bard's song, but I don't want to do more than that. Buffing is extremely uncool lore-wise for classes not based around that. Cool fighters from movies/book/etc aren't cool because they buffed themselves or had others do so, they are cool because of their own inherent skills... you can take any couch potato, and buff him enough, and he will be just as tough as the best fighter. That is NOT what RPGs are about.

I understand and sympathize but that is a reality of the 3.PF D&D system, not a problem with the game per se. If you consider it a foundation built on sand then fair enough but you are severely gimping your playthrough and I think you'd enjoy the game more if you drop the difficulty a bit to compensate.

My good man, you confuse munchkinism for skill. Just because you rolled a 10 class munchkin char, and cast every single spell in the book every single fight, and drank every single potion, that doesn't mean you have skill. Only that you have no taste.



So your argument is basically: they fucked up on balance and allowed munchkinism, so to balance that out (no pun intended), they then fucked up on monster difficulty? What is this, i don't even ...

Character-building and identifying which buffs to cast at what times, and which enemy defenses to target, are skills in this system- 3.PF encourages and rewards munchkinism. In a DMless CRPG it's the logical result of using 3.PF as a base.

To be fair I think it's an issue that Kingmaker doesn't have any automated buffing scripts. Nearly 20 years since Baldur's Gate and the CRPG industry still hasn't figured out how to make buffing less frustrating/time-consuming.

I realize it's PnP and not a CRPG (yet, until Solasta is released), but this is why I love the Concentration mechanic from D&D 5e. It logically limits buffing and removes so much tedium from important fights.

There’s actually some play in the mechanics for pure fighter types if you take advantage of the flanking and intimidate line of feats. Freebooters can accentuate that approach nicely. Weapon and armor training are also somewhat underrated if still underpowered in the grand scheme.

Making Crane Wing’s +4 a shield bonus would cut out so much of the bullshit.

Yeah, Fighters can definitely still contribute to the party especially if they take feats like Shatter Defenses, but the point is that they still need buffs (especially on Challenging or above, when enemies have inflated stats).

 

[Desiderius]

To be fair I think it's an issue that Kingmaker doesn't have any automated buffing scripts. Nearly 20 years since Baldur's Gate and the CRPG industry still hasn't figured out how to make buffing less frustrating/time-consuming.

TBH at least thats something that Deadfire did right with the scripts that you can fully customize. Every buff you gonna use in each fight will get applied right away pretty much automatically if you took the time and set it up once.

Very different topic: I see you guys really dig bards and say they are a staple of every good party. Thing is I love bards but in Pathfinder what is their niche so that they are kind of a must? Is it just the bard song which gives +1/2/3/4 to AB/dmg and the useful buffs or am I missing something? +2-3 AB is nothing to scoff at, but I don't think that alone worth a party slot and the magical buffs can be covered by wizards/alchemists so I feel like I'm missing something. Do you guys mix them with other classes? Does an eldritch knight get bard progression, or what? Thanks in advance for enlightening me!

(1) With lingering performance you can have an offensive song and a defensive up at the same time.

(2) The competence bonus provided by the main song is pretty unique so stacks well. Likewise when the fascinate song works it’s nuts.

(3) They get some very good unique spells that no other class has access to.

(4) Still 3/4 BAB class and can cast arcane with shield.

 

[Sykar]

To be fair I think it's an issue that Kingmaker doesn't have any automated buffing scripts. Nearly 20 years since Baldur's Gate and the CRPG industry still hasn't figured out how to make buffing less frustrating/time-consuming.

I never used scripts and never felt the need for them, always turning off the AI. To me a proper setup of the autopause feature, for me that entailed trap spotted, enemy spotted, end of round, heavily injured, target dead and weapon unusable, was sufficient.

 

[Haplo]

Late game their song can also help with defense (+4 dodge AC is potentially very nice!).

Bards are also the only class with access to Good Hope, which is a very convenient party wide buff. Great dispensers of Haste, Blur, Greater Heroism, Improved Invisibility / Displacement.

They also get powerful Enchantment and sonic spells.

But after EE I also greatly value them for Dirge of Doom aoe scare, no save. Dazzling Display has been nerfed to a full round action and is a bit unwieldy now, particularly Turn Based. Bard comes to the rescue with his swift action song! Makes everyone's attacks so much more deadly (including his own with Shatter Defences and a sneak damage dip).

 

[Sykar]

https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderkingmaker/mods/129?tab=description
Can somebody explain to me why the mod manager tries to tell me that it is outdated, despite the description saying that it is updated for 2.0.6 and does not load it essentially?

Edit: Nvm figured it out myself.

 

[Sykar]

Was browsing the Nexus mod page and saw two mods addressing flanking problems. Should I get Proper Flanking or Closer to Tabletop?

Edit: Anyone knows if Eldritch Arcana and Call of the Wild are compatible?

 

[Luckmann]

lol git gud

My good man, you confuse munchkinism for skill. Just because you rolled a 10 class munchkin char, and cast every single spell in the book every single fight, and drank every single potion, that doesn't mean you have skill. Only that you have no taste.

Nigger my main characters have been an Ecclesitheurge, a Paladin, and an Eldritch Archer/Eldritch Magus, and all my parties are always themed if at at all possible, and I rarely sleep more than absolutely necessary. When I said git gud, I meant git gud.

 

[Desiderius]

Late game their song can also help with defense (+4 dodge AC is potentially very nice!).

Bards are also the only class with access to Good Hope, which is a very convenient party wide buff. Great dispensers of Haste, Blur, Greater Heroism, Improved Invisibility / Displacement.

They also get powerful Enchantment and sonic spells.

But after EE I also greatly value them for Dirge of Doom aoe scare, no save. Dazzling Display has been nerfed to a full round action and is a bit unwieldy now, particularly Turn Based. Bard comes to the rescue with his swift action song! Makes everyone's attacks so much more deadly (including his own with Shatter Defences and a sneak damage dip).

My poor pally was already so slow (effortless armor to the rescue - now a fan) but trying to get a Dazzle off is pathetic. Smite + Challenge Evil is hard enough although theoretically doable, but DD is only practical when letting mobs rush your whole team.