Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Lyric Suite]

PoE has way better character creation system than DnD. Not even a contest.
You can create many more types of characters.

Not impressed by this argument if the characters in question are nonsensical lol random shit.

I heard the same kind of shit when 3rd edition rolled out and yet all the knewl customizations did nothing but dilute all the archetypes that made the classes what they were. Gygax himself mentioned this.

So from: lol why can't halflings be Paladins/Dragon Disciples we are now at the point where intelligence gives you melee dps and strength gives you better spell casting.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Might/STR has always been too narrow in exactly an MMO oversimplified way so this Soyer innovation was one of good ones.

Lmao the fuck is this shit.

Narrow how? By representing reality and logic? Thank God for Sawyer for adding variety by veering into nonsense.

Strength now makes you better at healing. Also, charisma gives you more melee damage. So many more options now!

 

[Lacrymas]

Oh, but of course, fantasy and RPG systems have always accurately represented the reality and logic of an aging conservative losing the culture war. How dare Sawyer.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Stock answer #61873

Imagine my surprise that the usual suspects would lap up this amorphous, formless nonsense.

 

[Lacrymas]

Desiderius is also an aging conservative, but he also said might governing damage and healing is one of the good things Sawyer did in this franchise, so I'm not sure who you envision these usual suspects to be.

 

[gurugeorge]

I think I may have said this before here, but I was always in two minds about the Might thing. In one way it seems really odd of course, but in another way it's really apt.

The most accurate word for what's meant by it as an attribute would be the French "puissance," which could apply to a physical attribute like great strength OR to force of will OR to force of personality OR to "kung fu" (skill built through repetition). It's an attribute (it's an attribute of the person) but it's neither a specifically mental or physical attribute.

Another concept that's sort of in the same ballpark was the idea of the "super stat" that Champions Online had - you pick one of your stats, a mental or physical one, intelligence, strength, whatever, depending on your "class," and THAT gets an extra multiplier when it comes to damage, and becomes the primary source of your damage.

IOW "Might" as meant in PoE is almost a "floating" attribute that's outside the realm of straight modelling or simulation of mental/physical attributes, yet it's still an attribute of the person.

It is actually the perfect solution, but finding a name for it that satisfies everyone is bound to be really difficult. "Puissance" is the perfect term, but of course not everybody is French "Spirit" would also be appropriate (especially in the Chinese connotation of "shen"), but it sounds a bit too airy-fairy.

 

[Desiderius]

Valor

 

[NJClaw]

Strength now makes you better at healing. Also, charisma gives you more melee damage. So many more options now!

"Might represents a character's physical and spiritual strength".

It's not "Strength now makes you better at healing". You have a single attribute, and it can represent either the character's physical or spiritual strength. Just like any other abstraction, it comes with its merits and flaws. But stop pretending that the standard D&D attributes system is somehow less retarded, because that's just your unconscious bias talking (and if it's true, it's only marginally less retarded).

"Hey look, I'm a priest and I know how to cast spells! That means I can also see and hear better, nice!"

"I'm a skilled leader who can inspire might in his troops! That means I can also sing and dance better, cool!"

 

[Desiderius]

Oh, but of course, fantasy and RPG systems have always accurately represented the reality and logic of an aging conservative losing the culture war. How dare Sawyer.

We once were lost but now are found.

Don’t confuse nihilism with victory. We will win by default.

 

[Desiderius]

Desiderius is also an aging conservative, but he also said might governing damage and healing is one of the good things Sawyer did in this franchise, so I'm not sure who you envision these usual suspects to be.

Im not a conservative, you illiterate, closed-minded, bigoted, small-brained, cramped-soul, unimaginative total fucktard.

Go ahead and cut off those balls, because it’s entirely evident you haven’t used them for years.

 

[Desiderius]

Might/STR has always been too narrow in exactly an MMO oversimplified way so this Soyer innovation was one of good ones.

Lmao the fuck is this shit.

Narrow how? By representing reality and logic? Thank God for Sawyer for adding variety by veering into nonsense.

Strength now makes you better at healing. Also, charisma gives you more melee damage. So many more options now!

Narrow in the way that braindead MMOs use STR to do the same thing for fighter classes that AGI/DEX does for ranged that INT does for Nukers.

Come back with a better attitude, you’re dishonoring your own cause. You’re not talking to imbeciles like Lacrymas here.

 

[Piotrovitz]

Can't you guys read i was only wondering whether Path of the Damned was like Heart of Fury.

It's not - PotD cranks up mobs stats and numbers, but is also very fair and plays very smooth/natura. Only beginning can be tough - once you reach Chapter 2, only particular encounters can be challenging and require save scumming, if it's your first run.

It's nothing like HoF in IWD2 where you have to hide behind your summons in order to survive encounter with 80HP goblin.

 

[Seigneur Locklear]

"Hey look, I'm a priest and I know how to cast spells! That means I can also see and hear better, nice!"

Wisdom is an abstraction meant to portray how in-tune your character is with his senses and intuitions. Someone more aware of self in this capacity can better attune to divine energies and in turn channel powers given by respective patron.

""I'm a skilled leader who can inspire might in his troops! That means I can also sing and dance better, cool!""

Charisma represents a force of one's personality, first and foremost. Even if you were to do a silly dance or a poor singing performance, the force of your personal magnetism will inherently boost your attempt at any and all social interactions.
Besides, it's a moot argument because classes still curtail your ability to perform efficiently in these fields via skill proficiencies.

 

[Lacrymas]

You can come up with whatever explanation you want, so these points are all moot. What is important is how these stats interact with the gameplay and character building. Even though Sawyer tried to make all attributes useful, he still couldn't avoid dump stats, so maybe one of the stats should've been done away with. I suggest Resolve.

 

[Lyric Suite]

So what you are saying is that there is no roleplaying in this game, it's all meta.

In BG2 dual wielding was usually a better option than two-handed weapons as far as melee dps went, but i still went with two-handed weapon skill because that's the kind of character i wanted to play.

In this game, i have to play Arnold Schwarzenegger Wizard because the meta tells me that muscles help with magic.

See my problem with this?

Even in a game like Icewind Dale the "archetype" always came first, by which i mean roleplaying always came first. Thus for instance i never went below 10 or 8 int on a character even if it made no difference in the game to just set it down to 3, and conversely, i never went above 10 if it didn't fit my idea of what the character should be (it actually happened once that i rolled such an high total score, over 100 i think, that i had enough points to raise int on my fighter to 15 with all the other stats near at max. I then used dalekeepr to lower it lmao).

In Pillars however, i cannot make decisions like that because everything has some mechanical purpose. I cannot make a dumb Barbarian without making sure the skills i'm going to pick don't actually require an high int first.

Perhaps once i get to play the game i'll see the wisdom of all this but my first impression is that this is like the modern art of RPG systems. It reeks of conceptual relativism.

 

[Butter]

The fact is that the attributes actually make very little difference in how you play. Dumping Might to 3 only results in -21% damage. 18 Might means +24% damage. Wizards will always be good at dealing damage, and targeting the right enemy defense matters a lot more than what attributes you chose.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Well, like i said, i'll just wing it. If i want my sword and board Paladin i'll just make one and fuck min/maxing.

 

[NJClaw]

In this game, i have to play Arnold Schwarzenegger Wizard because the meta tells me that muscles help with magic.

I think you are giving too much importance to the attributes. Aloth has Might 12 and is a perfectly viable wizard even on Path of the Damned.

In Pillars however, i cannot make decisions like that because everything has some mechanical purpose. I cannot make a dumb Barbarian without making sure the skills i'm going to pick don't actually require an high int first.

You're clearly talking about this game without having ever played it. The system was literally designed to make it almost impossible to get a non-viable build.

Well, like i said, i'll just wing it. If i want my sword and board Paladin i'll just make one and fuck min/maxing.

A sword and board paladin works perfectly. I don't understand what makes you think otherwise.

 

[Lacrymas]

The fact is that the attributes actually make very little difference in how you play. Dumping Might to 3 only results in -21% damage. 18 Might means +24% damage.

That's almost a 50% divide, though, so it isn't that small of a difference.

I cannot make a dumb Barbarian without making sure the skills i'm going to pick don't actually require an high int first.

You can still make a dumb Barbarian, there are just consequences for doing so. You know, like roleplaying is supposed to involve? As for sword and board Paladin, that's the worst way to build one imo. It's not that it isn't viable or not possible, but its usefulness is suspect compared to any other kind of build.

 

[Parabalus]

I cannot make a dumb Barbarian without making sure the skills i'm going to pick don't actually require an high int first.

Dumb barbarian will hit harder, but potentially hit fewer foes. It's a good example of the system giving you a choice.

 

[Lacrymas]

Tbh, the worst aspect of this attribute system is that it's actually quite possible to hit harder and hit more foes. You just dump Resolve and a bit of Constitution, especially since Barbarians have the highest baseline health/endurance either way.

 

[Parabalus]

Tbh, the worst aspect of this attribute system is that it's actually quite possible to hit harder and hit more foes. You just dump Resolve and a bit of Constitution, especially since Barbarians have the highest baseline health/endurance either way.

If you dump resolve you are extremely squishy and prone to interrupts, something to the tune of 30-40 less deflection compared to Eder at lvl 2.

 

[Butter]

The fact is that the attributes actually make very little difference in how you play. Dumping Might to 3 only results in -21% damage. 18 Might means +24% damage.

That's almost a 50% divide, though, so it isn't that small of a difference.

That's the difference between 3 and 18 though. In Icewind Dale a 3 STR Fighter isn't even allowed, and even a 9 STR Fighter is completely non-viable.

 

[Desiderius]

The fact is that the attributes actually make very little difference in how you play. Dumping Might to 3 only results in -21% damage. 18 Might means +24% damage. Wizards will always be good at dealing damage, and targeting the right enemy defense matters a lot more than what attributes you chose.

Exactly. Which is why Lyric Suite bitching about some shit he picked up from the spoiled kids on the Steam Forums is so counterproductive. Soyer Bergeroned his own game and Lyric Suite is too busy with his Hello Fellow Redditors act to offer a cogent critique.

 

[fork]

The fact is that the attributes actually make very little difference in how you play. Dumping Might to 3 only results in -21% damage. 18 Might means +24% damage.

That's almost a 50% divide, though, so it isn't that small of a difference.

That's the difference between 3 and 18 though. In Icewind Dale a 3 STR Fighter isn't even allowed, and even a 9 STR Fighter is completely non-viable.

Exactly. Which also makes a lot more sense.