Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Parabalus]

The fact is that the attributes actually make very little difference in how you play. Dumping Might to 3 only results in -21% damage. 18 Might means +24% damage.

That's almost a 50% divide, though, so it isn't that small of a difference.

That's the difference between 3 and 18 though. In Icewind Dale a 3 STR Fighter isn't even allowed, and even a 9 STR Fighter is completely non-viable.

That's not a good thing, as it is they might as well have removed attribute allocation from the IE games.
They just exists for flavour.

 

[Grunker]

In Icewind Dale a 3 STR Fighter isn't even allowed, and even a 9 STR Fighter is completely non-viable.

i.e. less choice. you might like this better, but it is irrefutably less choice

it's also a weird thing to say right after you talk about poe's attribute system resulting in 'little difference to how you play'. how exactly does the ad&d attribute system result in differences to how you play two different fighters except one being just a better version of the other

 

[Butter]

IWD2 and PST got it right by using a point buy system instead of allowing you to roll endlessly. Josh's attempt to make all attributes useful to all classes was valiant, but his big sin wasn't in making Might affect spell damage and gun damage, but rather in making each point have low impact. He must have felt constrained by D&D's 3-18 range, but a narrower range with each point making a bigger difference would've worked better (e.g. AoD's 4-10 range). It's hard to give a shit about the points you're spending when you know it mostly doesn't matter and all builds will end up working anyway.

 

[Lacrymas]

We've talked about this before and the conclusion is attributes in the IE games are pointless because of the strict requirements and the fact most of your attributes are worthless for the class/es you chose.

If you dump resolve you are extremely squishy and prone to interrupts, something to the tune of 30-40 less deflection compared to Eder at lvl 2.

That's purely theoretical, you don't actually feel the squishiness all that much. And as for Eder vs you, where do you get 30-40 less deflection from? The difference is 1 Deflection per point of Resolve.

 

[Lyric Suite]

You can still make a dumb Barbarian, there are just consequences for doing so. You know, like roleplaying is supposed to involve?

Yeah, consequences in the world (to wit: how dumb characters were handled in Fallout), not as far as the archetype of the class goes.

While Conan was fairly intelligent in the books the underlying idea of his character was that he was a force of nature. In his duel with Zaporavo we are told flat out that the pirate captain was the more skilled fencer, but he was still no match for Conan because the vitality of the barbarian was something beyond the level of any civilized man.

Of course there's the whole Nietzschean undertone in all of this but that's besides the point really as the important thing here is that the idea of the barbarian as was defined by Howard is what shaped all subsequent conceptions of this archetype.

What makes a barbarian is his primal character, his superior vitality and endurance. There's nothing necessarily preventing him from being highly intelligent, as Conan was, but it is not intelligence that defines his archetype, it is his primal nature. And as intelligent as Conan was, he was certainly neither learned nor cerebral, as those are traits associated with civilization, traits which his archetype exclude by definition.

So with that said, how can intelligence be a primary stat for this class?

It would make more sense if Sawyer had gone with a classless system. From the look of it it seems he very nearly did.

 

[Parabalus]

We've talked about this before and the conclusion is attributes in the IE games are pointless because of the strict requirements and the fact most of your attributes are worthless for the class/es you chose.

If you dump resolve you are extremely squishy and prone to interrupts, something to the tune of 30-40 less deflection compared to Eder at lvl 2.

That's purely theoretical, you don't actually feel the squishiness all that much. And as for Eder vs you, where do you get 30-40 less deflection from? The difference is 1 Deflection per point of Resolve.

In-game values from my barb run, 10 difference from RES, 10 from class and 10ish from shield.

You def do feel it until you're overleveled.

 

[Lady Error]

Bland itemization and progression are a 1000 times bigger faults of the first game than attributes ever were

Both get better in White March.

 

[Lacrymas]

In-game values from my barb run, 10 difference from RES, 10 from class and 10ish from shield.

You def do feel it until you're overleveled.

Then you would necessarily have 20 less Deflection than Eder baseline if you don't use a shield either way, so that's not tied to dumping RES in any way.

 

[Desiderius]

So with that said, how can intelligence be a primary stat for this class?

If you don't like INT mattering for Barb then you'll love Deadfire.

 

[Lacrymas]

So with that said, how can intelligence be a primary stat for this class?

But it's not? The game recommends you to have high int because of how Carnage works, but it in no way suggests it's a "primary stat".

 

[Desiderius]

In Icewind Dale a 3 STR Fighter isn't even allowed, and even a 9 STR Fighter is completely non-viable.

i.e. less choice. you might like this better, but it is irrefutably less choice

it's also a weird thing to say right after you talk about poe's attribute system resulting in 'little difference to how you play'. how exactly does the ad&d attribute system result in differences to how you play two different fighters except one being just a better version of the other

Because there are a myriad of other factors that go into it. Having STR matter isn't the same as STR is all that matters.

 

[Grunker]

In Icewind Dale a 3 STR Fighter isn't even allowed, and even a 9 STR Fighter is completely non-viable.

i.e. less choice. you might like this better, but it is irrefutably less choice

it's also a weird thing to say right after you talk about poe's attribute system resulting in 'little difference to how you play'. how exactly does the ad&d attribute system result in differences to how you play two different fighters except one being just a better version of the other

Because there are a myriad of other factors that go into it. Having STR matter isn't the same as STR is all that matters.

there are vague non-answers and then there's what you just wrote

 

[Parabalus]

In-game values from my barb run, 10 difference from RES, 10 from class and 10ish from shield.

You def do feel it until you're overleveled.

Then you would necessarily have 20 less Deflection than Eder baseline if you don't use a shield either way, so that's not tied to dumping RES in any way.

RES increases concentration so with the low DEF you will get hit every time, and interrupted every time. Compared to 18 RES the char is a huge glass canon.

In Icewind Dale a 3 STR Fighter isn't even allowed, and even a 9 STR Fighter is completely non-viable.

i.e. less choice. you might like this better, but it is irrefutably less choice

it's also a weird thing to say right after you talk about poe's attribute system resulting in 'little difference to how you play'. how exactly does the ad&d attribute system result in differences to how you play two different fighters except one being just a better version of the other

Because there are a myriad of other factors that go into it. Having STR matter isn't the same as STR is all that matters.

Low STR fighters PCs don't exist outside of personal challenges.

 

[Piotrovitz]

The fact is that the attributes actually make very little difference in how you play. Dumping Might to 3 only results in -21% damage. 18 Might means +24% damage.

This is actually 45% dmg of difference, which is huge and actually affects how you play. Especially for wizards, which can be used as a CCers or nukers, depending on which part of the might spectrum he is on.

Sure, single points don't make much of a difference, but min-maxing in PoE actually affect your playing style imo.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Well, this argument is going nowhere.

Let's say i'll play the game even with my misgivings about the system, since i want to at least try it.

Let's move on to my second question: do stats matter in conversations or quests?

 

[Desiderius]

there are vague non-answers and then there's what you just wrote

Finesse for starters. I've led you to the water. Drink or not is no concern of mine.

 

[Desiderius]

Let's move on to my second question: do stats matter in conversations or quests?

Nope. Game has no C&C whatsoever.

 

[Grunker]

I think you've mistaken leading your lack of arguments away from the discussion from leading me anywhere

 

[Parabalus]

Finesse for starters. I've led you to the water. Drink or not is no concern of mine.

That's 3E stuff, everyone's talking about 2E.

The fact is that the attributes actually make very little difference in how you play. Dumping Might to 3 only results in -21% damage. 18 Might means +24% damage.

This is actually 45% dmg of difference, which is huge and actually affects how you play. Especially for wizards, which can be used as a CCers or nukers, depending on which part of the might spectrum he is on.

Sure, single points don't make much of a difference, but min-maxing in PoE actually affect your playing style imo.

INT buff duration is also pretty huge, easy to have a duration difference of >100% for dumped vs pumped INT.

 

[Piotrovitz]

Let's move on to my second question: do stats matter in conversations or quests?

They do, however not in a crucial way - there aren't any gated content related to your stats.

They give you extra conversation options that affect your disposition (aggresive/clever/benevolent etc), but this matters only for Priests and Paladins. If certain dispositions linked to your deity are high enough you get some minor bonuses.

 

[Nano]

I just want to have 18s in all the important stats like I can in BG. Is that too much to ask?

 

[Desiderius]

The fact is that the attributes actually make very little difference in how you play. Dumping Might to 3 only results in -21% damage. 18 Might means +24% damage.

This is actually 45% dmg of difference, which is huge and actually affects how you play. Especially for wizards, which can be used as a CCers or nukers, depending on which part of the might spectrum he is on.

Sure, single points don't make much of a difference, but min-maxing in PoE actually affect your playing style imo.

Yes and no. You can always make the "for want of that last point of damage" argument. And there are other stats where the problem is more egregious. And nobody wants to end up with Diablo3/D:OS2 exponential stat chasing.

There remains a happy medium and PoE is on the unhappy side. Some of us enjoyed Fallen Empires and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth_Collectible_Card_Game. Doesn't mean they're not undertuned.

 

[Lacrymas]

RES increases concentration so with the low DEF you will get hit every time, and interrupted every time. Compared to 18 RES the char is a huge glass canon.

But that's assuming you are going to face tank all the time. If you want to hit hard, AND hit a lot of targets, AND face tank, then you'll dump DEX. You can't have it all, at one point you have to sacrifice an aspect of your character, which for me is a very easy decision to make, especially for a Barb - dump Resolve. Someone else will do the tanking. Well, unless you want to make a barbarian tank, then the situation changes. It's interesting to note a barbarian tank can dump DEX and CON.

 

[Parabalus]

RES increases concentration so with the low DEF you will get hit every time, and interrupted every time. Compared to 18 RES the char is a huge glass canon.
/QUOTE]
But that's assuming you are going to face tank all the time. If you want to hit hard, AND hit a lot of targets, AND face tank, then you'll dump DEX. You can't have it all, at one point you have to sacrifice an aspect of your character, which for me is a very easy decision to make, especially for a Barb - dump Resolve. Someone else will do the tanking.

But that's the point, dumping to glass cannon status is a conscious decision, based on each player's value system. I made the same call.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Resolve is definitely a dump stat for the backline, but for the frontliners it makes a huge difference. Barbs can sort of manage without it because of their massive health pool, but I still wouldn't dump it all the way to 3.