Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[FreeKaner]

D&D paladins are explicitly modeled after Charlemagne. The problem is that faux-D&D and other RPGs turned them into fighters with healing that pay lip service to some god, and frequently they don't even do that anymore. No code, no ethos, no fealty, no chivalry.

No they are not. Paladins in DND are essentially a combination of medieval knights-errant tales and religious military orders such as Knights Templar or Knights Hospitaller. Charlemagne's Paladins were not a religious military order like the crusader orders are. They were an order of sworn knights. While following code of chivalry and aspiring to be good Christians they were fundamentally a military caste who swore fealty to Charlemagne. A Paladin order thus should follow a code of principles, as well as swear fealty to a person or organization, while being religious is part of their morality it wasn't what distinguished them particularly. Paladins were not mere knights holding small fiefs or what not as the crusaders were, they were very high up in the ladder too. In that regard the "Paladin" should be akin to western version of how "Daimyo" (thus generally samurai as represented in media) would be, as duty-sworn, bound by code of morals, loyal and representing in-cultural virtues, the latter which was shaped by their religious character.

 

[Lacrymas]

But they use religious names for their abilities! Sick and wrong! This is why Western civilization collapsed.

 

[Delterius]

Being trained to do something is inconceivable and wrong.

Worse than that. It's a worldview where human ideals cannot fundamentally alter someone's essence. An outlook in life that is so devoid of soul and is tragic to the extreme.

 

[pomenitul]

Well, I never!

 

[Anonymous Wife Scholar]

No they are not. Paladins in DND are essentially a combination of medieval knights-errant tales and religious military orders such as Knights Templar or Knights Hospitaller. Charlemagne's Paladins were not a religious military order like the crusader orders are. They were an order of sworn knights. While following code of chivalry and aspiring to be good Christians they were fundamentally a military caste who swore fealty to Charlemagne. A Paladin order thus should follow a code of principles, as well as wear fealty to a person or organization, while being religious is part of their morality it wasn't what distinguished them particularly. Paladins were not mere knights holding small fiefs or what not as the crusaders were, they were very high up in the ladder. In that regard the "Paladin" should be akin to western version of how "Daimyo" (thus generally samurai as represented in media) would be, as duty-sworn, bound by code of morals, loyal and representing in-cultural virtues, the latter which was shaped by their religious character.

It is obscurity anon that Dungeons Dragons Paladin is pattern after famous fictional Danish cuckold Holger Carlsen anon! It is true anon! It is! He did lose cute swan wife anon to random farmer anon! It is true anon! It is! Do not worry anon it is okay anon because Paladin can be cute heterosexual human male BIG PENIS Law of Good wife scholar anon! Thank you anon! You are a good anon!

 

[rusty_shackleford]

A Paladin order thus should follow a code of principles, as well as wear fealty to a person or organization, while being religious is part of their morality it wasn't what distinguished them particularly.

uhhh you mean like this?

 

[Delterius]

while being religious is part of their morality it wasn't what distinguished them particularly.

uhhh you mean like this?
*describes someone who is distinguished by being religious and swearing fealty to a god*

i don't think so?

 

[vazha]

So how did that 7 con pally turn out? Did he rage-quit already?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

uhhh you mean like this?

clearly not since those Paladins are still distinguished by swearing fealty to a deity

Lords are a valid choice for pledging fealty to, as are deities.

 

[Delterius]

uhhh you mean like this?

clearly not since those Paladins are still distinguished by swearing fealty to a deity

Lords are a valid choice for pledging fealty to, as are deities.

Which do you think is the norm in D&D? Paladins serving a worldly lord or Paladins serving a church? It is clear that the former is closer to the actual IRL Paladins, that D&D didn't really follow that line at the beginning, and that it's creators wanted to make a cool game. It's fine that they had some holes in their historical knowledge. It was the 1820s after all.

 

[Blutwurstritter]

 

[Lyric Suite]

Well, obviously that cannot be the case, unless you are going to tell me "patriotism" or "business contracts" have become self conscious divine entities like the chaos gods in Warhammer 40k or some shit.

Lyric Suite before you start going for the higher level ideas you gotta start with the basic ones. Tell me: In D&D a priest of Oghma can be granted the power to heal grievous wounds. Do all of Oghma's faithful gain such powers?

The logic is not the same because the premise is differrent.

In Christianity, the degree of one's faith is what grants a person special graces, up to the ability to literally perform miracles in the case of some saints. But ultimately it is not the "faith" in and of itself that bestows those graces, but God. A saint doesn't draw anything out of his own person. "Not I, but Christ in me".

Now it is obvious that D&D is partially inspired by Christianity, and that the abilities of priests are "rewards" given to them by the gods.

In the case of Pillars, what you are arguing is that the abilities of the Paladins are the result of the intensity of their faith in and of itself. The object of the faith is irrelevant and could in fact be completely mundane and trivial. It is the act of having this kind of faith as such that grants the Paladins those abilties.

To me, this screams of euphoria. To the euphoric, this is just a brilliant "spin" on the old idea, which was always problematic to them on account of the fact it seemed to give the impression there was anything noble about having faith and having belief in the divine.

 

[Delterius]

The logic is not the same because the premise is differrent.

I already know that Lyric Suite. Everyone does. The problem is that you can't navigate it properly. So we have to start with the basics. Now, answer the question:

In D&D a priest of Oghma can be granted the power to heal grievous wounds. Do all of Oghma's faithful gain such powers?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Again, if you're a fan of chivalrous Paladins in RPGs, I'd recommend picking up or acquiring a copy of the Complete Paladin's Handbook. It focuses heavily on the aspects of paladins that should matter.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Being trained to do something is inconceivable and wrong.

Worse than that. It's a worldview where human ideals cannot fundamentally alter someone's essence. An outlook in life that is so devoid of soul and is tragic to the extreme.

This only seems to be the case because you think there's nothing outside and above the human ego. You find the concept of an actual God "soulless" because you cannot contemplate anything transcending the human order.

 

[Delterius]

Being trained to do something is inconceivable and wrong.

Worse than that. It's a worldview where human ideals cannot fundamentally alter someone's essence. An outlook in life that is so devoid of soul and is tragic to the extreme.

This only seems to be the case because you think there's nothing outside and above the human ego. You find the concept of an actual God "soulless" because you cannot contemplate anything transcending the human order.

So Lyric Suite tell me, in D&D priest of Oghma can be granted the power to heal grievous wounds. Do all of Oghma's faithful gain such powers?

Until you can answer this question you will be unable to realize that this

In the case of Pillars, what you are arguing is that the abilities of the Paladins are the result of the intensity of their faith in and of itself.

was completely wrong.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

reminder that wizards in D&D(multiverse) are technically just clerics in dresses

 

[Anonymous Wife Scholar]

In the case of Pillars, what you are arguing is that the abilities of the Paladins are the result of the intensity of their faith in and of itself. The object of the faith is irrelevant and could in fact be completely mundane and trivial. It is the act of having this kind of faith as such that grants the Paladins those abilties.

It is not argument anon it is fact of Eora setting anon! It is! All Eora ability is SOUL ENERGY anon! It is! You nonsense is irrelevance anon! Do not give me nonsense anon! Do not!

 

[Delterius]

reminder that wizards in D&D are technically just clerics in dresses

real players wear down the DM until they can put on a dress and a set of armor at the same time

 

[rusty_shackleford]

In the case of Pillars, what you are arguing is that the abilities of the Paladins are the result of the intensity of their faith in and of itself. The object of the faith is irrelevant and could in fact be completely mundane and trivial. It is the act of having this kind of faith as such that grants the Paladins those abilties.

It is not argument anon it is fact of Eora setting anon! It is! All Eora ability is SOUL ENERGY anon! It is! You nonsense is irrelevance anon! Do not give me nonsense anon! Do not!

Except there are gods who grant people power.
I have endless loathing for whoever wrote that stupid fedora at the end of the game and the fact that people actually think it's a valid argument.

 

[Lacrymas]

In the case of Pillars, what you are arguing is that the abilities of the Paladins are the result of the intensity of their faith in and of itself. The object of the faith is irrelevant and could in fact be completely mundane and trivial. It is the act of having this kind of faith as such that grants the Paladins those abilties.

This concept exists irl, it's chaos magic. Don't latch on too hard to the word "chaos". You get your powers from something that has deep meaning to you. That might be Christ, but if it's not and Christ doesn't speak to you at all, it can be Darth Vader or literally anything else.

 

[Lyric Suite]

And where does soul energy come from?

So Eora is Samsara sans Nirvana.

 

[Lyric Suite]

In the case of Pillars, what you are arguing is that the abilities of the Paladins are the result of the intensity of their faith in and of itself. The object of the faith is irrelevant and could in fact be completely mundane and trivial. It is the act of having this kind of faith as such that grants the Paladins those abilties.

This concept exists irl, it's chaos magic. Don't latch on too hard to the word "chaos". You get your powers from something that has deep meaning to you. That might be Christ, but if it's not and Christ doesn't speak to you at all, it can be Darth Vader or literally anything else.

Except that's total bullshit.

But since we are speaking of "real life", we need to talk about one thing here. That the "classic" image of the Paladin is based on something that is not the fruit of some made up fantasy but is inspired by a concrete reality. The fact that every culture on earth has it's own idea of Chivalric honor and have their own version of the European knight shows that we are dealing with a universal ideal.

D&D has likewise latched on this ideal. The specifics of a particular fantasy stetting are actually irrelevant. What matters is the archetype as such.

This game seems to want to subvert the archetype while hiding behind its own specificity as a fantasy setting. That's my issue with it. The problem is not that i don't understand how the setting works, it's that i don't care. The archetype is what matters to me, because the archetype is reality and the setting is arbitrary fluff.

 

[Anonymous Wife Scholar]

Except there are gods who grant people power.
I have endless loathing for whoever wrote that stupid fedora at the end of the game and the fact that people actually think it's a valid argument.

Priests are devotees of Eora's deities and practitioners of religious magic. While all priests dedicate themselves to specific gods, priests' power is actually derived from their personal beliefs. In contrast to most paladins, priests tend to focus on philosophy, teaching, and the relationship of religious organizations with common folk. The reception of priests in any given part of the world depends largely on how their god is revered - or reviled - by the people who live there.

Do not worry anon it is okay anon if you do not like Sawyer setting anon because Sawyer is WORTHLESS CUCKOLD anon but if you do argument anon on fact of setting anon it does not matter anon if you do not like anon! Does not! If you do not like anon it is TOO BAD anon because that is setting anon! It is true anon! It is!

 

[Delterius]

In the case of Pillars, what you are arguing is that the abilities of the Paladins are the result of the intensity of their faith in and of itself. The object of the faith is irrelevant and could in fact be completely mundane and trivial. It is the act of having this kind of faith as such that grants the Paladins those abilties.

It is not argument anon it is fact of Eora setting anon! It is! All Eora ability is SOUL ENERGY anon! It is! You nonsense is irrelevance anon! Do not give me nonsense anon! Do not!

Except there are gods who grant people power.

For starters, yes there are. The Gods of Eora do grant people power but they do so sparingly. Berath will raise warriors from the grave to protect holy sites and relics. Magran and Abydon will grant their worshipers knowledge through adversity. Wael and Ondra outright alter their followers. There's an entire race of godlikes who are blessed with godly power. It just so happens that divine magic, at it's most basic form, is not defined by direct godly intervention. Gods do most of the time seek to spread their ideals via their followers. The gods' philosophies and customs is at the heart of how most religious organizations steel mortal souls for a given purpose. Paladins are similar to Priests in the sense that their essences can be steeled by divine doctrine, but they can also be steeled by military training combined with religious zeal and philosophical ideals distinct from those of the Gods'.