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Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (new From Software game)

Discussion in 'jRPG Weeaboo Discussion' started by Matador, Jun 10, 2018.

  1. Talby Arcane Patron

    Talby
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    Sekiro is a quicktime event stretched out into a full game.
     
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  2. cvv Arcane Patron

    cvv
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    Also Dark Souls is a Roll Playing Game and Bloodborne is just a shootan spam.

    Everything is shit.
     
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  3. Black Angel Arcane

    Black Angel
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    :necro:
    Apparently there's a post from DJOGamer PT that somehow eludes me here. I'm gonna sit down, read, and reply to the best of my ability.
    Contrary to what you think, Sekiro does, in fact, gave you the tools to succeed and requires you to effectively read the opponents and react. It only fails for you because you refuse to play Sekiro in accordance to how the devs designed it, and instead try to approach it from the lens of Souls games, and also because you refuse to use the tools they offered you. Why am I confident in saying these? Well, based on your stance that the game is R1-L1 mashing, despite the presence of other mechanics and gameplay features, made me conclude that you haven't even tried to try and use the prosthetics, the combat arts, the consumables, etc etc.

    It would be a different story if you actually have something to say regarding other gameplay features that Sekiro has to offer, but so far the most I see were people taking a glance at the list of tools, and then dismissing them as if they're some kind of waste of space. That all they need are the R1-L1 sword mashing...and then they came here to complain how there's only one way to play the game.

    I doubt PC attack the slowest, there are a couple of enemies out there who're much slower, especially the giant enemies like those Taro Troop, the Juzou variant, and even the Armored Warrior have quite a windup when they attack. They also got substantial poise to them, the more obvious one being the Armored Warrior.
    And there is cancelling animation in Sekiro. In fact, I'm confident enough to proclaim that Sekiro is the game where they've implemented the smoothest animation cancelling by far. And you're not the only one who can animation cancel; enemies can, too. I've so experienced many moments where I press R1 roughly at the same time as my target beginning their attacks (mostly bosses, mini-bosses, and mini-bosses turned mobs like the respawning Samurai General and Lone Shadow Swordsman), but on reflex I pressed L1, cancelling the attack animations, but they did the exact same, so we both just stand there trying to deflect even though none of us were attacking each other. I'm currently too busy with irl stuff, though, so once things got a bit calmer I'm gonna go back and try playing several boss rush and see if I could replicate it.

    And this is the part where my suspicion, that you haven't actually paid attention to the game you're playing, grows even stronger. Once again, it reminded me that you folks, to this very moment, somehow refuse to try and play Sekiro as is, and instead headstrongly insists on playing it like it's Souls.

    Did the visual cues, the big red kanji and the split-second shine, and the audio cues, not clear enough to you? You see, this is actually one of those part where we can argue that Fromsoft are streamlining their game; you know, big red kanji appearing above the PC's head, in addition to those split-second shine and the audio cues when enemies perform perilous attacks, these features reeks some kind of handholding. And yet, here you are, proclaiming out loud that the game made it *impossible to react on instinct*, that some you *can't just look at the enemy to expect their attacks*, despite the big ass red kanji and many other cues. And then that sentence,
    Well, duh? That's why they have those pop-ups tutorial, and even Hanbei the Undying to help you further understand the gameplay mechanics, and help yourself getting used to it. I tried reading this sentence in particular over and over again, and I can't comprehend how the hell is this even an argument?

    What the hell are you talking about here, mate? I can't- what is this?!
    What?! You mean, like, a spear-wielding enemies *can only* be defeated with Mikiri Counter? If so, then, you really haven't paid attention to the tutorial; thrusting attacks CAN be step-dodged, other than being perfectly deflected. So, that's 3 ways to deal with a spear/thrusting attacks. 4 if you count the Umbrella as a stand-in for perfect deflect, 5 if you bother to use the Mist Raven Feather.

    But trying to argue against Sekiro from this angle in the first place, is just retarded, man. Because it's like trying to argue that rock shouldn't defeat scissors because you expect the scissor to be made of adamantium, or that in addition to paper defeating rock it should also be able to defeat scissors or whatever. Once again, with this point it became more and more apparent that you were expecting something like in Souls games.

    Now this is a fair argument. We can also say that the game is overall smaller, in both size and scope, thus not having close to as much enemy types as in Souls games. However
    I'm confident enough to say you're wrong here. As I've personally faced the bosses (mainly Sword Saint) many, many times through the boss rush, and watching a lot of Sekiro videos, I can safely conclude that the boss pattern CAN change depending on how you approach them; it boils down to mostly either approaching a boss aggressively (attacking, either with R1, combat arts, or prosthetics whenever you can, even initiate it instead of waiting for their attacks) or defensively (waiting for enemies to attack, deflect everything that can be deflected, Mikiri counter, jumpkick, etc etc).

    And here I once again doubt if you've actually been paying attention. You do know that Sekiro basically elaborate further into the parry mechanics of Souls, right? And that includes the partial parries. Meaning this time, there's the Perfect Parry™

    I might sound like a smartass here, but the truth is I actually only understand about it in practice; I vaguely remembered seeing people discussing how the parries in Sekiro goes even further beyond simple failed parries, partial parries, and perfect parries. Apparently there's a point between failed parries and partial parries, where the damage to HP is prevented, but the ones to posture is not, and thus resulted in posture breaks. Supposedly this discussion was in the video above, but I can't find it. But long story short; failed parries = full damage both to HP and posture goes through, partial parries = only partial damage to posture, chip damage to HP when charmless, will ALWAYS breaks posture if posture bar is filled, while perfect deflect = see above video.
    This is an interesting point; I'd like to dissect the game and see how Sekiro's dodging mechanics works in relation to hitboxes and iframes (if there's even ANY, other than for deflection), but I'm not that much of a savvy in this regard. Still, if I'm allowed to comment on this regardless, based on purely my experience alone, I have a feeling that a LOT of enemies attacks are designed to cover a vast swathe of ground, thus discouraging you from dodging and encourage to deflect instead. And yet, from playing by myself and watching some of the videos, there are instances where it seems that iframes for dodging DOES exists, it's just so brief that it might as well not there at all. However, vertical downward attacks can obviously be step-dodged, and so does attacks committed in a clearly discernible angles (45 degree slashes hitboxes can actually be dodged)
    On half-health, posture regenerate much slower.

    I'm not sure what to say to this. What's actually bad when you can be spotted from (((a mile away))) when standing up (meaning you practically announced your presence for all the world to see), and can calmly move around them while crouched (meaning you reduced your stature as to not be immediately noticeable)? And you said this, without considering the fact that you can stand right behind someone when they haven't reached even yellow indicator, but trying to move in front of them even while crouched will get you detected.

    The only time when *all* enemies know where you are is if you get detected by this guy. If not, it will only be the guy whose indicator turns red; the rest would turns yellow, though I forgot if they saw they guy with red indicator moving they'll follow suit or not.
    As for breaking line of sight; you didn't specify if you actually lose them, or you simply hide behind a wall when someone still got their sight on you.

    I do agree that the stealth system should be more developed; even though you're hanging off a cliff/roof, they should somehow able to see you and not stuck at yellow indicator. Same with when only you got detected by someone who's not a Watcher, I remembered many instances where one guy saw me, the others turns yellow but instead of following the guy with red indicator they just stand there looking left and right.

    Once again: Dragon's Dogma is an action-RPG, while Sekiro is a full-blown action game.

    I'm not forcing you to love Sekiro as much as I do, or even slightly like it at all, no. I'm just saying you should stop judging Sekiro from the lense of Souls games or even the lens of an action-RPG. The only thing that matters is if Sekiro shows a good direction in regards to Fromsoft's true strength, and I'm saying that action-RPG signatures aren't where Fromsoft shines the brightest.
    As for comparison to *other* action games, well, I've conceded this point; I haven't played much action games, so I don't have anything to say when comparing Sekiro to other action games.

    To end my post here, lemme share some stuff

     
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  4. Talby Arcane Patron

    Talby
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    That's a lot of words to say "I have shit taste."
     
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  5. cvv Arcane Patron

    cvv
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    This is Codex not Twitter.

    Absurdly long assplainings are proper etiquette.
     
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  6. Black Angel Arcane

    Black Angel
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    What, you mean this post? I agree

    Show Spoiler
    :troll:
     
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  7. Silverfish Arbiter

    Silverfish
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    The only thing he said in that post that was incorrect was claiming that Sekiro is better than Dynasty Warriors.
     
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  8. Black Angel Arcane

    Black Angel
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    Indeed, Dynasty Warriors sure is better than a game of dodgefest
     
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  9. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    :didntreadlol:
     
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  10. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    Ok...
    Now to be completely serious (almost).

    I ain't gonna reply to all that text point by point, as that goes beyond the scope of my autism (and patience).
    But I've read that fucking walll, and I will adress your points in a general manner.


    For starters, that post you answered to was made shortly afterwards my completition of the game, and at the time I was still trying to process why the game had failed IMO.
    I had this general sense from my experience (both from my experience with Sekiro and playing other brawlers) that something wasn't quite right about Sekiro, and it was by trying to express it in that post (plus reading from other users) that I actually managed to grasp the problem.

    Second you assumed from the beggining that I was judging Sekiro comparatively to jARPG's like DS, BB, Nioh and DD.
    While in fact, I've always judged Sekiro comparatevely to the standards I've developed from playing other Brawlers.
    And besides the distinction isn't that great since those Japanese Action RPG's all have Action Combat derived from the Brawler subgenre - and therefore can be analysed with the same general "lenses".



    Now for the actual problem of Sekiro - I'll try to keep it simple and short.

    Obsiously there's no set formula to make a Action Combat Gameplay System (of cource the same can be said of any type of gameplay system).
    But a few aspects that should be universal is - consistency and clarity.
    Now Sekiro does both these things, however it's in what follows that the game fails and makes the combat an anthesis of what a Brawler should strive to be.

    I am have not invested much in my Speech Skill, and neither did I read a neatly defined manual on the design of Action games, so you'll have to give me some slack on the following text...

    In their essence, Action combat is making the best decisions in the moment-to-moment gameplay. As such, their appeal lies not only on the challenges of combat, but also the process of mastery and the "tools" with which the player can make use of in those cenarios (here in the latter, the quality of "versatility" is highly important).
    All of this to say that Action Combat should also possess:
    • There should be "depth" to the actions the PC can perform in combat - attacks/defenses should have multiple intentions and applications (hence why "versatility"); in the best designed combat systems, some failed actions can even have advantageous purposes.
    • Connected to the above, there should be a good balance between risk/reward in regards to the player's actions - this can break the combat if handled poorly, but if well done it can "hook up" players for years.
    • Learning should be engaging by itself, and mastery shouldn't be definitive (as in, there should always exist room for improvement) - this point is highly dependant on the "depth" referred in the previous point (and of course the way devs introduce mechanics).
    • The player should have the agency to engage challenges the way they please, even if it's wrong - now don't go misunderstanding this point, I am not saying that every "approach" should be equal; after all "every job has the right tool", as such for every challenge the game presents there should exist a more effecient action/"tool" and a less efficient one; and it up to the devs not to only craft a cool set of actions, but also design challenges to facilitate and emphasize a certain playstyle; devs shouldn't however stop players from tackling the challenge in ways contrary to their intended design by restricting player's agency with artificial barriers (a simple example of this are "color-coded enemies", and mechanics like cooldowns and "item" restricted actions can also be as bad if devs are not careful).
    • Challenge - now of course this varies from person to person, but in general there should exist difficulty options that push both beginners and veterans without becoming tiresome or enraging (this depends on the quality of the above points, plus the challenges own design quality).
    • Replayability, which can only come when all of the above is in good shape.


    When you look at how Sekiro performs in these areas, you see how it's combat fails so hard (and honestly, sometimes it even seems these flaws are intentional).

    All of the player's actions are very limited. Attempts to use them outside the devs intention is restricted.
    All of it's enemies are meant to be defeated in specific ways that must be memorized by heart. Attempts to change tactics or improsive are highly discouraged.

    Did the enemy sweep? Jump.
    Did the enemy thrust? Mikiri-counter.
    Is the enemy airborne? Throw shuriken.
    Is the enemy attempting a grab? Run away.
    Is the enemy using a shield? Break it with the axe.
    Do you want to dispatch though enemies as fast as possible? Perfect deflection timing to break enemy Posture.

    These are the main "nuances" of Sekiro's combat. There may indeed be other mechanics to it, but this is still the principal stuff that players will learn and make use of for the next 30 hours of gameplay, and I've just described it in 6 lines.
    Once you get this, there's almost no sense of progression to the learning.
    Combat Arts could spice things up, but most of them don't have purposes other than big damage and looking cool. The few that do have, serve very minor utility and are usually restricted by item requirements. And to further limit their usefullness, the player can only use 1 of them at a time.
    Oh and lest I forget, there's no skill demanded in their execution - the player just presses the dedicated awesome button.
    There's no other tools to play with aside from the Combat Arts and Prosthetics (which again, don't give much in the way of agency thanks to their poor versatility and the restricting enemy design), and the sword offers nothing to master (no combos of any kind).
    Risk/Reward is extremely simplistic and further reduces player's agency. If you try to improvise, the risk is high but the reward small. If you play by the devs rules, it's mostly: you either fail and get buttraped or succeed and have the opportunity to perform high damage ownage. There's no in-between.
    Most of regular enemies, don't even require the use of the more "advanced" combat mechanics since they can easily be spam-clicked to death, and the game offers no incentive to do otherwise.
    Bosses are the most restrictive of enemies, as they require the most exact and complex playstyles from the player. The biggest challenge they pose to players is their muscle memory, as opposed to actual mechanical understanding and gameplay mastery (inb4 muscle memory is gameplay mastery).
    And because of a lack of proper difficulty modes (and no buffed stats aren't proper difficulty), there's no incentive to push players behind the main combat mechanics.

    This is pathethic for a Brawler.


    And it's inexcusable for a company with FROM's experience, resources and the amount of good examples from the last 20 they could've draw from.
    Blade of Darkness, was made by a studio infinitely smaller, with so few resources they had to cut development short, and they made it at a time when 3D Brawlers were yet to be a thing. Nevertheless, despite how janky, simple and "small" their project was, they still have shown to have possessed a better grasp on those concepts then FROM did with Sekiro.
    Also despite the fact that just 1 game prior, FROM made a combat system that seemed to understand the basics of those concepts (Bloodborne).

    Honestly I have a easier time believing that these flaws are a bit intentional - kinda like they were trying to make a anti-Brawler, (the fact they at least have the consistency and clarity further drives this).



    Not every Action Combat needs to be this complex, "big brain" system to be good.
    Simplicity can be very satisfying and produce great games (for example: Doom), but it still needs to respect those parameters.
    And Sekiro does not...
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2021
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  11. karoliner Arcane Vatnik

    karoliner
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    Stop it with the walls of text you degenerate!
     
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  12. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Nathir Savant

    Nathir
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    "I didn't like the gameplay of Sekiro. Here is a wall of text i spent one hour writing to prove why the gameplay is badly designed and the title is objectively a failure."
     
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  14. cvv Arcane Patron

    cvv
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    "The game is bad because it's badly designed, has artificial difficulty and is bad in general and altogether therefore everyone who liked it is wrong.

    :smug: The world doesn't appreciate me enough."
     
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  15. Cryomancer Arcane Glory to Ukraine

    Cryomancer
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    Why Sekiro is even in JRPG section? Sekiro = Dark Souls - magery, pyromancy, milagres, polearms, axes, halberds, bows, crossbows(...) character development, pvp, coop pve and make everything cool like firearms enemy monopoly while forces PCs to use the most boring weapon ever(swords).
     
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  16. Nortar Prophet Patron

    Nortar
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    I've asked the same question long ago in Troubleshooter thread.
    It turns out that jRPG is, in fact, a (semi)secret place where true connoisseurs can discuss good games without the usual GRPG detractors and distractions.
     
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  17. Cryomancer Arcane Glory to Ukraine

    Cryomancer
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    And almost no magefags. Lets be real. Almost no magefag likes jrpg's. hu3hu3hu3

    Even I, play Dragon's Dogma mostly as an Archer. Longbows are amazing in that game. And in souls series, I downloaded the convergence mod and loved playing as a Cryomancer, was using mostly my axe in that mod.
     
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  18. MajorMace Cipher Patron

    MajorMace
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    I'm Ridin' with Biden I'm Ridin' with Biden
    Sigh
     
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  19. Matador Arcane

    Matador
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    To avoid 5 posts per page in every thread telling "muh weaboo shit, hate anime,etc"
     
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  20. Silverfish Arbiter

    Silverfish
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    You're missing out. Mage (never tried Sorcerer) is the ultimate "be a lazy prick" class. You can get embarrassingly far just hanging back, throwing out heals and buffs, and letting your pawns do the heavy lifting while you collect the rewards. It's like roleplaying Master Shake.
     
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  21. Black Angel Arcane

    Black Angel
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    But this is what you said before?
    Show Spoiler

    Also, this:
    Show Spoiler

    Not long after, you were asked to put up a list of games that's better than Sekiro/Fromsoft's games at melee action combat, and you came up with this:
    Show Spoiler

    What, should I dig deeper and see if you truly were judging this game from your standards, which was developed from playing (((Brawlers)))? Unless by 'Brawlers' you meant action games, in which case why not just call it that? Because when thinking "Brawlers" I'm thinking those arcade fighting games like Street Fighters, Tekken, and hell even Smash Bros etc etc.
    But the way I see it, completely ignoring countries of origin/certain Earth's hemisphere's influence on the design philosophy for some of these games, these games are just action games, no? Heck, the bolded&underscored ones are action-RPGs even, and like I said before (although I wasn't quite clear about it, which was my bad), Dragon's Dogma's melee action combat got nothing on Sekiro, although it does has RPG mechanics that's quite involved with its action gameplay, which made it better than Soulsborne. And that actually speaks volume for Sekiro's achievement, don't you think? Because my point since ever is that with Sekiro, Fromsoft is trying to move forward from their mostly barebones melee action combat gameplay, while implementing gameplay features that were previously executed in roundabout way, in a more direct manner now (stealth and jumping, but most importantly, their parry mechanics).

    But anyway, why bring this up? Haven't I conceded when it comes to discussing Sekiro in regards to action games in general? Hence why I'm trying to keep this discussion mostly in context of what Fromsoft were doing, regardless of what everyone else in the industry has done.


    Is it? I've come to find the distinguishing of video games based on where the people who made them was born and raised/staying is pretty dumb, because it doesn't tell you *anything* meaningful aside from, "Oh, the devs are the Japs."
    You first gotta elaborate on what you really meant with action-RPGs made in Japan having action combat derived from the Brawler subgenre, because the list of games you put up before? I don't see them beyond 'action games'.

    And now we're back to fucking square one. Excuse me, sir, aren't you the one who spouted this bullshit right here
    I've made my points loud and clear, but you just insists on saying the exact same fucking thing over and over again. It's just so obvious to me that you haven't truly understand even the most basic fundamental of Sekiro gameplay as I pointed before, but if you're actually trolling here then congratulation, sir, you got me.

    But if you're truly serious, then I sincerely hope the Lord helps you, because I doubt anyone on Earth can.

    Nathir and cvv was right, it seems, so I'm not even going to bother you anymore from here onwards. Because, in your own damn words here:
     
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  22. Cryomancer Arcane Glory to Ukraine

    Cryomancer
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    Boring. Longbow in DD are so amazing. They are medieval anti materiel rifles, if you hit the enemy weakspot, you deal a lot of damage and is very satisfying to hit well placed longshots.

    Sorcerer is worse than mage. Is press the button to start casting and pray to not be interrupted. If I could aim with my magick bow instead of relying on the autoaim and homing magical arrow, I would love magick archer. The physical attacks of that class are amazing. Immolation, Rebalance, Reset;

    Nice point. This thread in general gaming would get much hate.
     
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  23. Anonona Learned

    Anonona
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    That's why you pick both fast and slow casting spells, spells that are fun to use like Brontide, Necromancy and Fulmination, and most importantly, take at least another Sorcerer pawn that has the same high level spells as you (an the utilitarian inclination if possible) so he can mirror your spells, allowing you to cast them faster and multiple times in one go. And it stacks, so with 3-4 sorcerers is even faster. Sorcerer makes you think a bit more about party composition. You can take a sorcerer pawn who focus on enchanting or other elements while you focus on offensive spells, or perhaps make the other pawn cast hexes and debuffs or vice versa.



    Also I find myself of the opposite opinion. I find Ranger to be a little too safe and boring of a play stile, while a caster needs more commitment when fighting. Bad positioning or choosing the wrong time to cast high level spells can ruin your day more than Ranger, which has quite less issues to get out of the way.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
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  24. Black Angel Arcane

    Black Angel
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    But isn't that how it's supposed to be? The drawback for being able to cast what's basically nukes on your enemies. That's why you have pawns to draw enemy attention away from you if you're playing a Sorc. Or if you got Sorc pawn, you do that job for 'em.
     
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  25. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2015
    Messages:
    5,253
    Location:
    Lusitânia
    I might be missing something, but I don't see the contradiction.
    While some of my opinions in those post have changed since then, I was even there still effectively judging Sekiro from my experience with other Brawlers.
    I mean I even implied it in boldened quotes...


    Action games are an extensive genre that ranges from Shooters to Stealth games.
    "Brawler" is just my designation for the subgenre of Action games with a focus on melee combat (figthing games aren't apart of it, even if they share similiar goals).


    Sure their combat systems are different and they are from different subgenres, but the moment-to-moment gameplay in that regard is still fundamentally that of a Brawler and as such I belive that for the most part they can judged by the same parameters (those I listed in the previous post)


    And my point was that I don't think the direction they are taking their melee action combat is an improvement


    Well if you find that distinction stupid, then that's your issue.
    But I think not even you can deny there indeed exists a noticeable difference in - style, gameplay, storytelling and overall experience - between Role-Playing Videogames developed in Western countries and those made in Japan (or perhaps better yet, RPG's inspired by/in the mold of classic jRPG's).


    Well I am insisting on the same point over and over again, because you haven't still seem to understood, or perhaps accept, the point I am trying to make.
    This time I tried my best to make it as easy to understand as possible, by elaborating the parameters to which I think a Brawler should strive to perfect, and by comparing how Sekiro stack against those goals.
    So if anything, I think you're the one that now has been avoiding the point.


    I made the previous post solely for your benefit (and the hoarding of KKK :D).
    Since it was you that made the effort to write a wall of text in response to an old ass post of mine, I thought that at least I should read it and try to elaborate you a definitive answer to my stance on the game.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2021
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