Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (new From Software game)

[Nathir]

"I didn't like the gameplay of Sekiro. Here is a wall of text i spent one hour writing to prove why the gameplay is badly designed and the title is objectively a failure."

 

[cvv]

"I didn't like the gameplay of Sekiro. Here is a wall of text i spent one hour writing to prove why the gameplay is badly designed and the title is objectively a failure."

"The game is bad because it's badly designed, has artificial difficulty and is bad in general and altogether therefore everyone who liked it is wrong.

The world doesn't appreciate me enough."

 

[Cryomancer]

Why Sekiro is even in JRPG section? Sekiro = Dark Souls - magery, pyromancy, milagres, polearms, axes, halberds, bows, crossbows(...) character development, pvp, coop pve and make everything cool like firearms enemy monopoly while forces PCs to use the most boring weapon ever(swords).

 

[Nortar]

Why Sekiro is even in JRPG section?

I've asked the same question long ago in Troubleshooter thread.
It turns out that jRPG is, in fact, a (semi)secret place where true connoisseurs can discuss good games without the usual GRPG detractors and distractions.

 

[Cryomancer]

Why Sekiro is even in JRPG section?

I've asked the same question long ago in Troubleshooter thread.
It turns out that jRPG is, in fact, a (semi)secret place where true connoisseurs can discuss good games without the usual GRPG detractors and distractions.

And almost no magefags. Lets be real. Almost no magefag likes jrpg's. hu3hu3hu3

Even I, play Dragon's Dogma mostly as an Archer. Longbows are amazing in that game. And in souls series, I downloaded the convergence mod and loved playing as a Cryomancer, was using mostly my axe in that mod.

 

[MajorMace]

artificial difficulty

Sigh

 

[Matador]

Why Sekiro is even in JRPG section? Sekiro = Dark Souls - magery, pyromancy, milagres, polearms, axes, halberds, bows, crossbows(...) character development, pvp, coop pve and make everything cool like firearms enemy monopoly while forces PCs to use the most boring weapon ever(swords).

To avoid 5 posts per page in every thread telling "muh weaboo shit, hate anime,etc"

 

[Silverfish]

And almost no magefags. Lets be real. Almost no magefag likes jrpg's. hu3hu3hu3

Even I, play Dragon's Dogma mostly as an Archer. Longbows are amazing in that game. And in souls series, I downloaded the convergence mod and loved playing as a Cryomancer, was using mostly my axe in that mod.

You're missing out. Mage (never tried Sorcerer) is the ultimate "be a lazy prick" class. You can get embarrassingly far just hanging back, throwing out heals and buffs, and letting your pawns do the heavy lifting while you collect the rewards. It's like roleplaying Master Shake.

 

[Black Angel]

Second you assumed from the beggining that I was judging Sekiro comparatively to jARPG's like DS, BB, Nioh and DD.
While in fact, I've always judged Sekiro comparatevely to the standards I've developed from playing other Brawlers.

But this is what you said before?

Spoiler

Alrigth for starters, I don't think Sekiro is a bad game. It's nice and fun - sure is better than dynasty warriors and the others you mentioned.
But it's honestely I belive it's the weakest one From has put out in these 10 last years.
And if they want to go in this direction (more action oriented titles), they need to work on a lot of stuff.

Sekiro is admittedly a hard game to critique, because everything here is functional (on paper).
But once I get down with the combat, there's something there that it frankly feels off.
So I'll explain things the best I can.

Action games are all about giving you tools to succeed and requiring you to effectively read their opponents and react.
Unfortunately Sekiro in my eyes fails in both parts.

Also, this:

Spoiler

Dude the entire gameplay revolves around R1/L1 mashing.

Like most combat of From games in the past 10 years, it's... decent.
That means, while there's nothing inherently wrong with it, there's also nothing truly great about it.
I would say the reason most people find it outstanding is that one - most people haven't played anything better - and two - the game feels good to play (the animations are nice, the attacks feel like they have a nice punch to them, the sounds effects are sharp, etc).
Whatever it has done, alot of other action games have much done more and better.

Not long after, you were asked to put up a list of games that's better than Sekiro/Fromsoft's games at melee action combat, and you came up with this:

Spoiler

Severance: Blade of Darkness
Jedi Academy
Ninja Gaiden - Black/Sigma
Devil May Cry 3
Dark Messiah of Might and Magic
God Hand
Ninja Gaiden II
Devil May Cry 4
Bayonetta
Dragon's Dogma
Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance
Bayonetta 2
Nioh
For Honor
Devil May Cry 5

What, should I dig deeper and see if you truly were judging this game from your standards, which was developed from playing (((Brawlers)))? Unless by 'Brawlers' you meant action games, in which case why not just call it that? Because when thinking "Brawlers" I'm thinking those arcade fighting games like Street Fighters, Tekken, and hell even Smash Bros etc etc.
But the way I see it, completely ignoring countries of origin/certain Earth's hemisphere's influence on the design philosophy for some of these games, these games are just action games, no? Heck, the bolded&underscored ones are action-RPGs even, and like I said before (although I wasn't quite clear about it, which was my bad), Dragon's Dogma's melee action combat got nothing on Sekiro, although it does has RPG mechanics that's quite involved with its action gameplay, which made it better than Soulsborne. And that actually speaks volume for Sekiro's achievement, don't you think? Because my point since ever is that with Sekiro, Fromsoft is trying to move forward from their mostly barebones melee action combat gameplay, while implementing gameplay features that were previously executed in roundabout way, in a more direct manner now (stealth and jumping, but most importantly, their parry mechanics).

But anyway, why bring this up? Haven't I conceded when it comes to discussing Sekiro in regards to action games in general? Hence why I'm trying to keep this discussion mostly in context of what Fromsoft were doing, regardless of what everyone else in the industry has done.

And besides the distinction isn't that great since those Japanese Action RPG's all have Action Combat derived from the Brawler subgenre - and therefore can be analysed with the same general "lenses".

Is it? I've come to find the distinguishing of video games based on where the people who made them was born and raised/staying is pretty dumb, because it doesn't tell you *anything* meaningful aside from, "Oh, the devs are the Japs."
You first gotta elaborate on what you really meant with action-RPGs made in Japan having action combat derived from the Brawler subgenre, because the list of games you put up before? I don't see them beyond 'action games'.

When you look at how Sekiro performs in these areas, you see how it's combat fails so hard (and honestly, sometimes it even seems these flaws are intentional).

All of the player's actions are very limited. Attempts to use them outside the devs intention is restricted.
All of it's enemies are meant to defeated in specific ways that must memorized by heart. Attempts to change tactics or improsive are highly discouraged.

Did the enemy sweep? Jump.
Did the enemy thrust? Mikiri-counter.
Is the enemy airborne? Throw shuriken.
Is the enemy attempting a grab? Run away.
Is the enemy using a shield? Break it with the axe.
Do you want to dispatch though enemies as fast as possible? Perfect deflection timing to break enemy Posture.

These are the main "nuances" of Sekiro's combat. There may indeed be other mechanics to it, but this is still the principal stuff that players will learn and make use of for the next 30 hours of gameplay, and I've just described it in 6 lines.

And now we're back to fucking square one. Excuse me, sir, aren't you the one who spouted this bullshit right here

It's quite funny reading past posts like these
You can see in them that generally when anyone brings up the fundamental flaws of Sekiro's combat design, you resort to that inane "every game is actually form of rhythm game lol" instead of arguing against the actual points people make

Also you usually follow that with the: "Sekiro has depth because you can parry/dodge/jump-doge/mikiri/combat art/fist your opponent"
Again ignoring the arguments made that these things the way they are designed don't really enchance the experience properly

I've made my points loud and clear, but you just insists on saying the exact same fucking thing over and over again. It's just so obvious to me that you haven't truly understand even the most basic fundamental of Sekiro gameplay as I pointed before, but if you're actually trolling here then congratulation, sir, you got me.

But if you're truly serious, then I sincerely hope the Lord helps you, because I doubt anyone on Earth can.

Nathir and cvv was right, it seems, so I'm not even going to bother you anymore from here onwards. Because, in your own damn words here:

You can see in them that generally when anyone brings up the fundamental flaws of Sekiro's combat design, you resort to that inane "every game is actually form of rhythm game lol" instead of arguing against the actual points people make

.......

Again ignoring the arguments made that these things the way they are designed don't really enchance the experience properly

 

[Cryomancer]

And almost no magefags. Lets be real. Almost no magefag likes jrpg's. hu3hu3hu3

Even I, play Dragon's Dogma mostly as an Archer. Longbows are amazing in that game. And in souls series, I downloaded the convergence mod and loved playing as a Cryomancer, was using mostly my axe in that mod.

You're missing out. Mage (never tried Sorcerer) is the ultimate "be a lazy prick" class. You can get embarrassingly far just hanging back, throwing out heals and buffs, and letting your pawns do the heavy lifting while you collect the rewards. It's like roleplaying Master Shake.

Boring. Longbow in DD are so amazing. They are medieval anti materiel rifles, if you hit the enemy weakspot, you deal a lot of damage and is very satisfying to hit well placed longshots.

Sorcerer is worse than mage. Is press the button to start casting and pray to not be interrupted. If I could aim with my magick bow instead of relying on the autoaim and homing magical arrow, I would love magick archer. The physical attacks of that class are amazing. Immolation, Rebalance, Reset;

To avoid 5 posts per page in every thread telling "muh weaboo shit, hate anime,etc"

Nice point. This thread in general gaming would get much hate.

 

[Anonona]

Boring

Sorcerer is worse than mage. Is press the button to start casting and pray to not be interrupted.

That's why you pick both fast and slow casting spells, spells that are fun to use like Brontide, Necromancy and Fulmination, and most importantly, take at least another Sorcerer pawn that has the same high level spells as you (an the utilitarian inclination if possible) so he can mirror your spells, allowing you to cast them faster and multiple times in one go. And it stacks, so with 3-4 sorcerers is even faster. Sorcerer makes you think a bit more about party composition. You can take a sorcerer pawn who focus on enchanting or other elements while you focus on offensive spells, or perhaps make the other pawn cast hexes and debuffs or vice versa.



Also I find myself of the opposite opinion. I find Ranger to be a little too safe and boring of a play stile, while a caster needs more commitment when fighting. Bad positioning or choosing the wrong time to cast high level spells can ruin your day more than Ranger, which has quite less issues to get out of the way.

 

[Black Angel]

Sorcerer is worse than mage. Is press the button to start casting and pray to not be interrupted.

But isn't that how it's supposed to be? The drawback for being able to cast what's basically nukes on your enemies. That's why you have pawns to draw enemy attention away from you if you're playing a Sorc. Or if you got Sorc pawn, you do that job for 'em.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

But this is what you said before?

I might be missing something, but I don't see the contradiction.
While some of my opinions in those post have changed since then, I was even there still effectively judging Sekiro from my experience with other Brawlers.
I mean I even implied it in boldened quotes...

these games are just action games, no?

Action games are an extensive genre that ranges from Shooters to Stealth games.
"Brawler" is just my designation for the subgenre of Action games with a focus on melee combat (figthing games aren't apart of it, even if they share similiar goals).

Heck, the bolded&underscored ones are action-RPGs even, and like I said before, Dragon's Dogma's melee action combat got nothing on Sekiro

Sure their combat systems are different and they are from different subgenres, but the moment-to-moment gameplay in that regard is still fundamentally that of a Brawler and as such I belive that for the most part they can judged by the same parameters (those I listed in the previous post)

Because my point since ever is that with Sekiro, Fromsoft is trying to move forward from their mostly barebones melee action combat gameplay,

And my point was that I don't think the direction they are taking their melee action combat is an improvement

Is it? I've come to find the distinguishing of video games based on where the people who made them was born and raised/staying is pretty dumb, because it doesn't tell you *anything* meaningful aside from, "Oh, the devs are the Japs."

Well if you find that distinction stupid, then that's your issue.
But I think not even you can deny there indeed exists a noticeable difference in - style, gameplay, storytelling and overall experience - between Role-Playing Videogames developed in Western countries and those made in Japan (or perhaps better yet, RPG's inspired by/in the mold of classic jRPG's).

I've made my points loud and clear, but you just insists on saying the exact same fucking thing over and over again.

Well I am insisting on the same point over and over again, because you haven't still seem to understood, or perhaps accept, the point I am trying to make.
This time I tried my best to make it as easy to understand as possible, by elaborating the parameters to which I think a Brawler should strive to perfect, and by comparing how Sekiro stack against those goals.
So if anything, I think you're the one that now has been avoiding the point.

if you're actually trolling here then congratulation, sir, you got me.

I made the previous post solely for your benefit (and the hoarding of KKK :D).
Since it was you that made the effort to write a wall of text in response to an old ass post of mine, I thought that at least I should read it and try to elaborate you a definitive answer to my stance on the game.

 

[Great Deceiver]

Coming back to this after finally finishing up DS3 and what a fucking great game it is.

Pity the DLC never happened. Does anyone know how much it sold?

My ideal scenario is a boss rush DLC. I think the traversal/exploration parts of the game are the weakest.

 

[Correct_Carlo]

There already was a free boss rush DLC.

 

[Great Deceiver]

There already was a free boss rush DLC.

Well, I meant new ones. It was nice of them to add the option to replay bosses, but it's not exactly I would call a boss rush mode.

 

[Ivan]

Yeah, definitely will be revisiting this once the 2 mods come out that add new bosses/encounters

 

[Correct_Carlo]

Lyric Suite have you played this yet?

 

[Lyric Suite]

Not yet. I was waitng for a better sale. It's at 38 euros right now and it's still a bit much. I mean there's no multiplayer maybe i could play the version i removed from an inventory a while back, but i don't know. I'd like to play it legit if i can.

 

[Silva]

Don't know why but I don't feel the urge to play this again after finishing it (twice in a row). I think the rhythm-like combat got tiresome fast for me, even if I loved my time with the game. Weird, I know.

 

[Great Deceiver]

Don't know why but this is one of those games that I don't feel the urge to play again after finishing (twice in a row). I think the rhythm-like combat got tiresome fast for me, even if I loved my time with the game. Weird, I know.

In your replay you could try using different prosthetics and shinobi arts, they really make a big difference. Not every fight has to be infinite clang clang clang.

 

[Squid]

Mastering Sekiro feels more rewarding because besides attack power, there's a cap to your power level. Sure, it's not some action heavy RPG-esque game like the Souls and Bloodborne games but that does stand. Once you can master parrying well and reading your opponents, the faster you fights really do become. I beat most of the bosses that were annoying on first try the third time around.

Feels rewarding.

 

[Black Angel]

Well, I meant new ones. It was nice of them to add the option to replay bosses, but it's not exactly I would call a boss rush mode.

So you want a boss rush mode, but not the option to replay bosses? Then, something like this?

Don't know why but this is one of those games that I don't feel the urge to play again after finishing (twice in a row).

I also feel this way because the game is just not replayable in terms of content and things related to it like exploration. But the gameplay dynamics is way more satisfying to me than Soulsborne's, and the bossfights are just so damn good, so I only replay it for the boss rush and when attempting the Gauntlets.

 

[Great Deceiver]

Well, I meant new ones. It was nice of them to add the option to replay bosses, but it's not exactly I would call a boss rush mode.

So you want a boss rush mode, but not the option to replay bosses? Then, something like this?

Gauntlets of strength is really cool. Perhaps I expressed myself wrong, I meant to say that I would like a new boss rush mode with new bosses, and with actual time pars with online leaderboards, that sort of thing.

 

[Multidirectional]

Don't know why but I don't feel the urge to play this again after finishing it (twice in a row). I think the rhythm-like combat got tiresome fast for me, even if I loved my time with the game. Weird, I know.

I played it few more times but then I was using an increased spirit emblem cap mod which allowed me to fuck around with all the tools more. It's a good game but it's not something you can play over and over once you git gud. At the very least long break is required until you forget enough.