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The Dragon Age: Inquisition Thread

DragoFireheart

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I wonder if EA and Andrew Wilson are getting tired of the SJW shitty pandering MMO-style action RPG crap that Bioware continues to try and make but fails in most every way.

DA2, Star Wars:TOR, Mass Effect 3 fiasco with the endings, and now DA:I.

th

andrew-wilson-of-ea.jpg


Ah yea, that's the smile of a CEO that's no nonsense and no bullshit. Certainly not a gamer, but I bet he loves yachts. Looks like a god damn villain of some cliche evil corp movie (maybe Deus Ex?). No wonder EA has been doing better since Jonny got canned. Jonny may have been cool with Bioshit but I wonder if Andy has the same tolerance levels. I bet Andy will have no problems canning Biotards if need be. I think Andy doesn't give a shit that DA:I won some fake shitty ass GOTY award and is watching the bottom line.

Is Gaider losing sleep at night?
 

Drakron

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EA is known from destroying studios as they simply go after IP and their corporate philosophy simply turn then into empty husks as they will reflect EA corporate management eventualy, then EA simply discards them.

BioWare already lost significant staff, considering EA rather buy the current trend that actually enter the current trend just means at one point they will discard BioWare and I think since ME3 the company was already gutted enough, there was core staff that is no longer there.

And Gaider? I think he simply let his ego got the best of him ... I dont think he is a bad writer, just he isnt a good Lead Writer and EA doesnt really provide the environment were people in lead positions accept criticism, problem for him is what will happen after BioWare because writers in the gaming industry are a dime and a dozen ...
 

crawlkill

Kill all boxed game owners. Kill! Kill!
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Yes. Isometric is Good.

Don't be a reactionary. "The things that there was when I was a kid" aren't the only good way to do things. There are fucktons of flaws in the top-down tactical model that DAI does indeed sidestep. We don't spend 90 seconds prebuffing for every fight, for example, often after a reload because we didn't know the fight was coming.

The real problem is that the party tactics part in a more in-the-action game like this needs to have much sharper and more customizable AI. Maybe a whole unique interface and "training area" dedicated to setting things up, where you can build the kind of scenarios you want to set up and detonate and tell the AI "there, that's how I'd like this ballet to go." Make it fun and thoughtful for players to set up quick-access "battleplan" profiles you can pause to a menu of at the start of a battle--the player sees the enemy has five archers and only one melee so sets his party to his 'condense on <character> so <character> can AoE' tactic. The player sees there's a bunch of melee, so he triggers the 'tank moves ahead of player character with a little triangulation about enemy paths and taunts at optimal distance' tactic.

The tactics in this kind of game should really be moving more toward -realistic- small-unit tactics, where everything is in preparation and training and calling for the right play at the right time, not in being able to pause and micromanage on the fly. That works for people who think killing six kobolds in Baldur's Gate is fun--and I admit, it can have its appeal sometimes--but by and large video games aren't designed to have sufficiently unique encounters that each one is memorable. This is the great dilemma of tactical games; in twitch games, two very similar encounters can be just about equally fun, because it's the reflexes being tested. A tactical game, though, is fundamentally a puzzle game, and it's much harder to write 20 hours of unique puzzles than it is to design a system that engages 20 hours of adrenalin.

Most importantly, give computer players unique classes designed around AI usability, instead of directly cloning them off PC classes. DAO had detailed but nearly useless tactics. I don't even remember how they were handled in DA2. DAI just lets you call an ability 'disabled,' 'enabled' or 'prefered,' which isn't remotely clear. There was no way for me to tell my AI companions to prefer reviving one another if they weren't under attack, or to tell them to attack spawning creatures at rifts. While they could be counted on to cast Dispel on creatures with shields, they'd also cast it against meaningless debuffs when I wanted them to hold it, because there was no way for me to dictate current overall strategy. Most absurdly, there's -no way to tell them to run,- or if there is, I didn't notice it. If you actually decide you don't want to engage one of the trash battles, you'll have your enemies chasing you across the map and your companions randomly teleporting to you as you get out of acceptable range.

That's probably the clearest statement of DAI's combat faults: you can't communicate even a desire not to engage in another pointless encounter to your companions.

It's not bad because it's not isometric. It's bad because it doesn't do its own thing well. You can't just cling to one format and say "this is good, this is right, this is how it should be done." Because thank fuck we're not still using the Wasteland combat interface.

Except in NEO Scavenger, to a point. See? Even the Wasteland interface concept can be done well.
 

Zombra

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Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Nice post, crawlkill. I loved DAO's behavior programming suite - I would have loved to see them take the series further in that direction, and the idea of "calling plays" would fit perfectly ... have a few different program lists for your fighter for example, and hit kotkeys to change him from tank to damage dealer or whatever on the fly.
 

Abu Antar

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Why would DA:I failing have any bearing on any type of RPG in the long-term? With its afterthought of a tactical cam, it isn't even considered an isometric RPG and action-RPG's are very much established.

If DAI fails party based RPGs are permanently off the table for the AAA honchos. Just my humble guess ofc.
There's JRPGs. :smug:
 

Sykar

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Why would DA:I failing have any bearing on any type of RPG in the long-term? With its afterthought of a tactical cam, it isn't even considered an isometric RPG and action-RPG's are very much established.

If DAI fails party based RPGs are permanently off the table for the AAA honchos. Just my humble guess ofc.
There's JRPGs. :smug:

Still better than Dragon Turd: Inquitardation and Oblividerp.
 

cvv

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Why would DA:I failing have any bearing on any type of RPG in the long-term? With its afterthought of a tactical cam, it isn't even considered an isometric RPG and action-RPG's are very much established.

If DAI fails party based RPGs are permanently off the table for the AAA honchos. Just my humble guess ofc.
There's JRPGs. :smug:

Dunno, whenever I tried a jRPG it just weirded the fuck out of me. Like a game made by aliens. Even the fucking DS2, basically a western RPG made by Japs, was so weird in places.

Seems all the hope we have left for the "western" RPG are the eastern Potatoes. The Polacks with their Witcher and maybe Cyberpunk, us with Kingdom Come and hopefully the Ruskis manage to pull off another Stalker before their country implodes into a black hole.
 

Abu Antar

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Why would DA:I failing have any bearing on any type of RPG in the long-term? With its afterthought of a tactical cam, it isn't even considered an isometric RPG and action-RPG's are very much established.

If DAI fails party based RPGs are permanently off the table for the AAA honchos. Just my humble guess ofc.
There's JRPGs. :smug:

Dunno, whenever I tried a jRPG it just weirded the fuck out of me. Like a game made by aliens. Even the fucking DS2, basically a western RPG made by Japs, was so weird in places.

Seems all the hope we have left for the "western" RPG are the eastern Potatoes. The Polacks with their Witcher and maybe Cyberpunk, us with Kingdom Come and hopefully the Ruskis manage to pull off another Stalker before their country implodes into a black hole.
Shadowrun was fun and they're doing another KS campaign. I think Torment will at leasy be decent. Serpent of the Staglands could be good.

Maybe Antharion will be good. I haven't followed it much but I'll get it depending on impressions.
 

Starwars

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I just played about 4 hours of this (though half an hour of that was probably watching the loading screen). It's fucking terrible so far. I was a pretty big fan of DA:O despite its flaws and had hoped for some of that flavour in this. But yeah, it seems they really took a page from, well... It doesn't even feel particularly Skyrim-ish, more Assassin's Creed like from the very limited time I had playing in the Hinterlands. Skyrim felt waaaay more interesting than this if you ask me.
The story and dialogue are just... boring so far. Not amusingly cheesy even, just boring. Even DA2 had me more interested from the start.
Did a sidequest (and received a bunch more) and it just felt... soulless.
Combat is *awful*.

Even stuff you'd think they'd get right, like the graphics whore-isms, feel flat. Why do characters walk with their arms like that?

Did not expect much after reading the thread but yeah, it really seems to be *that* bad.
 

Crevice tab

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Even stuff you'd think they'd get right, like the graphics whore-isms, feel flat. Why do characters walk with their arms like that?

Did not expect much after reading the thread but yeah, it really seems to be *that* bad.

Why would you think they'd get anything right?

This is post EA acquisition Bioware- it isn't going to make anything right because it has no idea what getting something right is. The only improvements we can expect is more polygons, more quests, more characters to 'romance'- quantitative stuff they can wave in front of EA's corporate overlords because quality isn't something you can neatly quantify.
 

cvv

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Why would you think they'd get anything right?

This is post EA acquisition Bioware- it isn't going to make anything right because it has no idea what getting something right is.

Tru that. I consider both ME1 and DAO good games, definitely innovative and/or unusual for the AAA industry, but both were conceived long before the EA acquisition. Everything that came after that was just more of the same. Only "streamlined". And worse.
 

Sykar

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Why would you think they'd get anything right?

This is post EA acquisition Bioware- it isn't going to make anything right because it has no idea what getting something right is.

Tru that. I consider both ME1 and DAO good games, definitely innovative and/or unusual for the AAA industry, but both were conceived long before the EA acquisition. Everything that came after that was just more of the same. Only "streamlined". And worse.

First time I saw how the gutted character progression and gear progression in ME2 I knew I would not play it unless it's dirty cheap. Bought it for like 5-10 bucks a year ago or so and still could not finish the game due to the terrible streamlining and dumbing down, companions having often not more than 2 abilities in combat and two passives which do squat for actual gameplay /facepalm.
DA2 was the similar in that regard, haven't even finished the first chapter with all the repetitive areas doing basically the same quests over and over with mostly uninspired NPCs who for some reason all have a crush on me.
 

Crevice tab

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Why would you think they'd get anything right?

This is post EA acquisition Bioware- it isn't going to make anything right because it has no idea what getting something right is.

Tru that. I consider both ME1 and DAO good games, definitely innovative and/or unusual for the AAA industry, but both were conceived long before the EA acquisition. Everything that came after that was just more of the same. Only "streamlined". And worse.

I can't really applaud DAO or ME1- they're not bad but they don't do anything especially well either. Yes they have solid C&C and somewhat interesting combat but they didn't bring anything new to the table. Gothic and Morrowind also had pretty good C&C for example and yet they weren't hailed as the bringers of choice to RPG land.
 

DragoFireheart

all caps, rainbow colors, SOMETHING.
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We don't spend 90 seconds prebuffing for every fight,

Speak for yourself.

Resist Fear Chaotic Commands Death Ward Stoneskin Stoneskin Stonekin maybe Armor for Jan cause his equipment is good walk closer to a fight Mirror Image Chant (Melf's Minute Meteor Melf's Minute Meteor if I want more deeps) Draw Upon Holy Might (Negative Plane Protection early game) Spell Immunity: Abjuration Improved Haste GO GO GO GO MOTHER FUCKERS BEFORE THE BUFFS RUN OUT
 

cvv

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First time I saw how the gutted character progression and gear progression in ME2 I knew I would not play it unless it's dirty cheap. Bought it for like 5-10 bucks a year ago or so and still could not finish the game due to the terrible streamlining and dumbing down, companions having often not more than 2 abilities in combat and two passives which do squat for actual gameplay /facepalm.

ME2 is still allright, in some places the streamlining was actually a good thing, like mining for resources. In the original game the derping around in Mako got too dumb and boring after a while.

Problem is while ME1 is still an RPG-lite, ME2 and ME3 are full-blown action shooters with some magic. It's basically the Far Cry 3 formula in space and nobody would dream of calling FC3 an RPG. The saving grace of the whole ME franchise is the overall esthetics - the music, the environment, the world building, the plot (up until the end). Plus both ME1 and ME2 still feel mature in a sense, like Star Wars for grown-ups. But all this was set in place before the EA time. After that everything went to the lowest common denominator shitter.
 

Johannes

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I'm just saying when I'd rather the "super hard but can be done" sections of the game not be the entire North route at the start of the game. I think was a little too early/immediate for that kind of thing, maybe. Not for me, please understand, but I can get why some would find that confining. Even the Gothic games let you mostly go in any direction at the start, IIRC.

I agree that the map of New Vegas could have been better designed to guide the players who wished to be guided, while freeing others to do as they wish.

If you ask me, if they had switched the location of Goodsprings to be more centrally located or nearer to Vegas, there would be less complaints about things like the Deathclaws and whatnot. The fact that they used high powered enemies that would slaughter you instead of natural geography to guide the players is a tactic that won't sit well with many people.

A well-speced character (stealth) could easily evade the deathclaws and beeline straight to New Vegas (to do metagamey stuff like get all the implants early), just like in the original Fallouts - a well-speced character could easily go straight from V13 to the military base and get power armor straight off the bat.

Another early example of guiding the player would be Betrayal at Krondor. In chapter 1, the game screams at you constantly not to go directly south to Krondor (which is the quickest route consuming the fewest supplies), because the moredhel have spies, traps, ambushes all along the coast. But a clever player that understands the game mechanics well is free to do it to farm exp and loot.
That's not how I remember it. Going through the very distant paths was at least as tough than straight up the coast, those were not made for a low level party. There was the choice of going right along the coast, or on the road just slightly north to it, most of all - with hints spread around that one or the other would have more ambushes, but which one was it wasn't clear, at least not unless you found all of the well hidden clues.
 

Slow James

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ME2 is still allright, in some places the streamlining was actually a good thing, like mining for resources. In the original game the derping around in Mako got too dumb and boring after a while.

DL3JgN6.gif


Problem is while ME1 is still an RPG-lite, ME2 and ME3 are full-blown action shooters with some magic. It's basically the Far Cry 3 formula in space and nobody would dream of calling FC3 an RPG. The saving grace of the whole ME franchise is the overall esthetics - the music, the environment, the world building, the plot (up until the end). Plus both ME1 and ME2 still feel mature in a sense, like Star Wars for grown-ups. But all this was set in place before the EA time. After that everything went to the lowest common denominator shitter.

Yeah, it really is crazy how intricate and deep the DA and ME universes were in their first installments and then how much of that they really just ignored or left untouched in future installments. ME devolved from a game involving criminal elements, fringe extremists and corporate intrigue (even at a ham-fisted level) to derp-Cerberus and Reapers working at the most convoluted ways possible to NOT win. And DA became a series that felt like a larger world with great fantasy elements to being one long Mage v. Templar political statement, with the Grey Wardens and gods becoming caricatures just to be edgy as fvck.
 

Crevice tab

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Yeah, it really is crazy how intricate and deep the DA and ME universes were in their first installments and then how much of that they really just ignored or left untouched in future installments. ME devolved from a game involving criminal elements, fringe extremists and corporate intrigue (even at a ham-fisted level) to derp-Cerberus and Reapers working at the most convoluted ways possible to NOT win. And DA became a series that felt like a larger world with great fantasy elements to being one long Mage v. Templar political statement, with the Grey Wardens and gods becoming caricatures just to be edgy as fvck.

Intricate and deep? Maybe at a bare bones brainstorming level but Bioware's blundered the execution badly even in DAO and ME1. Pretty much each DA game had the seeds for exploring cultural, religious and political tensions- all failed due to derp writing. ME? Same story but with aliens- you get a glimpse of nonhuman societies trying to work together or competing with each other but then things quickly descend into pew pew popamole and facing incompetent enemies while having to suffer even less competent allies.
 

Slow James

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Intricate and deep? Maybe at a bare bones brainstorming level but Bioware's blundered the execution badly even in DAO and ME1. Pretty much each DA game had the seeds for exploring cultural, religious and political tensions- all failed due to derp writing. ME? Same story but with aliens- you get a glimpse of nonhuman societies trying to work together or competing with each other but then things quickly descend into pew pew popamole and facing incompetent enemies while having to suffer even less competent allies.

Yeah, didn't mean to imply they did things very well with them... but at least they introduced them to make the worlds appear more alive then they were.

Bioware's biggest problem has often been not being able to execute near what their intentions appear to have been.
 

cvv

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Intricate and deep? Maybe at a bare bones brainstorming level but Bioware's blundered the execution badly even in DAO and ME1. Pretty much each DA game had the seeds for exploring cultural, religious and political tensions- all failed due to derp writing.

No, that's going too far. Compared to what? What standard are you using here? Name me one single videogame that "explored cultural, religious and political tensions" in some truly meaningful way. There isn't one. PST is generally considered the "deepest", most mature videogame ever written and it's still just a superficial fairy tale compared to truly deep novels, movies or stage plays.

We have discussed this in some other thread. Videogames are still generally derpy and infantile, in the same way the first movies were. If you wanna explore the depths of philosophy you have to do it somewhere else. You wanna play videogames, especially the AAA ones? Then wizards, dragons and elves is all you're gonna get. The templars vs. mages subplot in DA2 is about as mature as it's gonna get in this industry. Put it another way - Bioware games are not bad because they're not "deep" enough.
 

Crevice tab

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No, that's going too far. Compared to what? What standard are you using here? Name me one single videogame that "explored cultural, religious and political tensions" in some truly meaningful way. There isn't one. PST is generally considered the "deepest", most mature videogame ever written and it's still just a superficial fairy tale compared to truly deep novels, movies or stage plays.


Erm... No. PST explored it's themes very well- it simply didn't want to tackle cultural and religious problems too deeply but instead focused much more on the main character's personal development- and did that very well. To use my previous examples Gothic 1-3 were a lot better at portraying tensions between opposing groups than all ME or DA games put together. Morrowind and Daggerfall had a comparatively huge amount of cultural and religious tension- tension that was actually reflected in the worldbuilding and remarked upon by the various characters.

We have discussed this in some other thread. Videogames are still generally derpy and infantile, in the same way the first movies were. If you wanna explore the depths of philosophy you have to do it somewhere else. You wanna play videogames, especially the AAA ones? Then wizards, dragons and elves is all you're gonna get. The templars vs. mages subplot in DA2 is about as mature as it's gonna get in this industry. Put it another way - Bioware games are not bad because they're not "deep" enough.

J. R. R. Tolkien wrote about wizards, dragons and elves and yet his books are filled with huge amounts of philosophy and depth.

The Templars vs. Mages subplot was a total copout: C&C? Nah! Whatever you do things unfold almost exactly the same way. Actual drama and well built characters? Nah! Everyone should grab an idiot ball and hang tight. A well developed villain? Lol. Magical statue did it! You could improve that questline by at least 200% by removing the derp mind control statue and actually making the leaders of the different factions act somewhat sanely and sympathetically.

Take Geneforge as an example of doing it better- you have a classical tale of freedom vs security and power vs sanity (which is very similar to the Templar vs Mage DA plots) but you also have more nuanced characters, actual tradeoffs and choices to make, attempts at compromising and way better writing despite the whole game being spawned by one man.
 

Sykar

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First time I saw how the gutted character progression and gear progression in ME2 I knew I would not play it unless it's dirty cheap. Bought it for like 5-10 bucks a year ago or so and still could not finish the game due to the terrible streamlining and dumbing down, companions having often not more than 2 abilities in combat and two passives which do squat for actual gameplay /facepalm.

ME2 is still allright, in some places the streamlining was actually a good thing, like mining for resources. In the original game the derping around in Mako got too dumb and boring after a while.

Problem is while ME1 is still an RPG-lite, ME2 and ME3 are full-blown action shooters with some magic. It's basically the Far Cry 3 formula in space and nobody would dream of calling FC3 an RPG. The saving grace of the whole ME franchise is the overall esthetics - the music, the environment, the world building, the plot (up until the end). Plus both ME1 and ME2 still feel mature in a sense, like Star Wars for grown-ups. But all this was set in place before the EA time. After that everything went to the lowest common denominator shitter.

Seriously? That idiotic whack-a-mole crap with the scanning is more "fun" than the Mako? At least the Mako was an interesting idea, just badly executed and I had hopes for a lot of improvements for planetary exploration in M2. What did I get? Whack-a-mole with satelites. /facepalm
But that is a nowadays typical behavior of Derpthesda and Bioborefest, instead of taking criticism and for the love of fucking game development improve what has been critizised they just remove it completely and replace it with something either more derpy or utterly banal shit or in worst cases, both.
 

crawlkill

Kill all boxed game owners. Kill! Kill!
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We don't spend 90 seconds prebuffing for every fight,

Speak for yourself.

Resist Fear Chaotic Commands Death Ward Stoneskin Stoneskin Stonekin maybe Armor for Jan cause his equipment is good walk closer to a fight Mirror Image Chant (Melf's Minute Meteor Melf's Minute Meteor if I want more deeps) Draw Upon Holy Might (Negative Plane Protection early game) Spell Immunity: Abjuration Improved Haste GO GO GO GO MOTHER FUCKERS BEFORE THE BUFFS RUN OUT

THOSE WON'T BE ENOUGH TO SAVE YOU FROM MY ARPG POWER

seriously though I wouldn't mind buff-heavy RPGs if they were -automatic- but even in my many, many normal difficulty Infinity Engine runs just precasting things like armor and haste and invisibility (yes I play a solo fighter/mage/thief what of it) takes forfuckingever

the fact that combat is so easy and easily broken in IE games is probably the only thing that keeps me coming back to them

it's funny--before I read A Song of Ice and Fire a decade or so ago, I didn't -know- that I liked plot. I thought I read books for dialogue. I thought I like characters and words, and didn't actually know it was possible to be invested in the events being described. nothing's ever done that for me for tactical combat. nothing's ever made it involving and rewarding enough that it's not just 'something going on' to measure the pace of the bits that I care about--which, just as with books pre-discovering the concept of plot, is mostly the characters and the words.

Baldur's Gate has some success there because it doooes feel pretty fuckin' good to break the game system. that's the great charm of IE combat--not that it's TACTICOOL, but that it's so absurdly flexible that you can pull it apart and it still technically -works,- even if it makes no fucking sense (trigger enemy buffs! cast invis and run away and sleep for a week! enemy buffs gone!). that it's broken to interact with without being broken in a buggy sense is incredibly charming.

and that, to expand my argument, is part of the problem with DAI (and maybe earlier entries in the series, I can't be bothered to think about them just now). there's no dynamism; you're essentially just growing into power, and even that growth becomes boring very rapidly. WHY does the game limit you to eight abilities? seriously, WHY? I spent the entire second half of the game not giving any kind of fucks about where I spent my points on levelup. and I was playing with a controller! they use the right shoulder button to switch you between your two sets of four abilities...WHY NOT USE LEFT SHOULDER THAT DOES NOTHING AT ALL TO SWITCH TO THE SECOND SET OF FOUR? do you really think the consoletards couldn't handle another set of abilities they could easily ignore? to say nothing of keyboard users--being limited to eight abilities in a SINGLE PLAYER GAME WHERE BALANCE DOESN'T MATTER AND ISN'T A DESIGN PRIORITY ANYWAY? FUCKING WHY? it makes sense in a -multiplayer- game where your eight skills are basically your "deck," but what's the fucking purpose in a game where you're only fighting an AI? the same AI? over and over? if I'd had bottomless skill slots, at least the game would've had a little more variety in its combat. as it stood, it was pretty much the first eight abilities I came to rely on that I used for the whole game.

that all left my hotbar every time I respecced, because apparently respeccing isn't intelligent enough to put the same skills on the same buttons by default when I buy all those same skills. yes, game! I want my controls to be randomized by purchase order! don't you go putting some of that programming talent to use automatically rebuilding my hotkeys, that'd be silly!
 

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