Game News Torment Kickstarter Update #5: Monte Cook Explains It All

[tuluse]

First of all - there was no 'romance' in P:T. Calling it romance is like saying soccer instead of football. Doesn't necessary makes you a bad person, still reveals you as American.

Yes there was. Unfortunately, every woman involved was grossly codependent. Avellone's inspiration for Annah and Grace was Betty and Veronica and Harlequin romance novels. I'm expecting none of that regressive nonsense in ToN.

It'd be nice if Mur Lafferty wrote an explicitly homoromantic asexual relationship for Lesi.

Were not all the companions codepedent? Wasn't one of the themes of Torment that the nameless one draws people to him and uses them?

 

[winterraptor]

hiver, you're entirely right that it isn't worth it other than to fuel more go-nowhere, irrelevant argument. I'm hoping they just leave it, now, and let those who misconceive what the True Bros are doing stew in their own stupidity. They've been told enough. We can all believe what we want based on what they've said.

Personally, I don't want them elaborating on NPC interactions any further - they can save it for the game. Not that I am likely to be able to just cold turkey following this until it's out which would be the purer way of ensuring this...

 

[winterraptor]

Were not all the companions codepedent? Wasn't one of the themes of Torment that the nameless one draws people to him and uses them?

Yes.

 

[Infinitron]

Were not all the companions codepedent? Wasn't one of the themes of Torment that the nameless one draws people to him and uses them?

Yes.

And in ToN, the companions may literally be the player character's meat puppets. Talk about codependence.

 

[hiver]

First of all - there was no 'romance' in P:T. Calling it romance is like saying soccer instead of football. Doesn't necessary makes you a bad person, still reveals you as American.

Yes there was. Unfortunately, every woman involved was grossly codependent.

No. Neither Anna or Fall from Grace were dependent on TNO in that usual cliche way. Annah was doing just fine by herself in the Hive of all places, her whole life before TNO showed up. FFG was very successful and independent woman with her own business and everything. No "man" in sight.
Instead - every NPC companion was attracted to The nameless One because he functioned as a load stone of Torment. A kind of a fulcrum point of it. (plus of course some had previous experiences with him)
An every NPC felt that pull in different ways.

 

[Roguey]

Were not all the companions codepedent? Wasn't one of the themes of Torment that the nameless one draws people to him and uses them?

An in-game justification doesn't make it any less problematic.

 

[hiver]

Its not an in game "justification". Its the core and point of the whole fucking story.

 

[mindx2]

What's the pledge rate/ totals for today? Since the announcement of fleshless sex? Is there still hope for humanity....?

 

[FeelTheRads]

What's the pledge rate/ totals for today? Since the announcement of fleshless sex? Is there still hope for humanity....?

Kickstat caught a glimpse of the future:

 

[Rake]

Were not all the companions codepedent? Wasn't one of the themes of Torment that the nameless one draws people to him and uses them?

An in-game justification doesn't make it any less problematic.

Are you telling me that you would not be codependent if you had a relationship with Sawyer?

 

[Zeriel]

Fargo better get on those romance stretch goals if he wants to hit 10M.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

haven't read that book of elves, is it so bad that he has to apologize for it?

Parts of it were quite bad, making elves seem like a much superior race, though you could minimize some of the tweaks. For instance, I think elves only had to meditate for an hour instead of sleeping 8 hours like a human. This meant that when the party set-up a watch they would let the elf 'rest' for a slight bit, then all go to sleep while he kept watch the rest of the night. Also I believe there were some advantages elves gained while in a forest, whether with stealth or tracking or limited communicating with animals. There were other things too, connected to their long-living age and connection to magic. These were little things, but when put together could make the elf player characters stick out more and make the rest of the players feel like they were relegated to sidekick status.

I don't have time to read this, but check a Let's Read on it here: http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?626446-Let-s-Read-The-Complete-Book-of-Elves

 

[Curious_Tongue]

Someone needs to make an RPG with romance as the main theme, and I'm being serious.

People obviously want it, and I don't see how the old school RPG fans can claim to be a neglected market when the romance fans are having their romances crammed into games they wouldn't want to play in the first place.

We need to separate the romantics from the neckbeards, not make games that please both.

They're called "visual novels".

But you see, the thing is, the "romance fans" DON'T actually want all romance, all the time.

Having to fight trash mobs now and again gives them plausible deniability, and it also serves as pacing between the romance elements. You didn't just select dialogue options to get your waifu. You FOUGHT THE BAD GUYS and EARNED her love!

Like Playboy having articles? Plausible deniability?

Larry Flint gave up trying to pass off porn as respectable, why can't a developer do the same for romance in games?

 

[winterraptor]

An in-game justification doesn't make it any less problematic.

That it functions in-game, is rationale for NPCs bothering to follow some insane quest-seeker, applies to the male NPCs as well as females, and interlaces into the theme of the game at least suggests it's likely not a deliberate stab at 'independent women'.

But if you're getting into the 'subconscious masculine heroic design', that's pretty much subjective enough to argue till doomsday. We aren't mind readers after all.

Now, I wouldn't be adverse to seeing an NPC or two (male or female) without SUPER EPIC reasons for wrapping around the PCs cock, figuratively speaking, in adventuring or what-have-you with them. Always appreciated for variety. Also without being the cliche 'traitor' half-way or at the end of the game, that's plenty fucking represented by now, fine thanks.

But the nature of the campaign's theme can override this ideal of 'variety', so it's not critical for me. Would be interesting though.

 

[Roguey]

That it functions in-game, is rationale for NPCs bothering to follow some insane quest-seeker, applies to the male NPCs as well as females, and interlaces into the theme of the game at least suggests it's likely not a deliberate stab at 'independent women'.

The Sith Lords had the same deal and didn't have the same codependency problem (except for Visas Marr which was just awful).

 

[FeelTheRads]

Were not all the companions codepedent? Wasn't one of the themes of Torment that the nameless one draws people to him and uses them?

An in-game justification doesn't make it any less problematic.

In other words: Nothing ever should be in a way that I don't like.

Also, the problem exists only in your head. You should have it checked.

 

[winterraptor]

The Sith Lords had the same deal and didn't have the same codependency problem (except for Visas Marr which was just awful).

Different game, different setting, different theme. You can blame the setting of Torment I guess (a 'theme' can essentially be a supernatural force in Planescape, considering it's entirely structured around the power of belief). But I don't really see The Exile as having quite the same supernatural draw/pull, and there wasn't a desire/need in the narrative, to wrap them all into the same dynamic reasoning.

I do agree the NPCs had decent variance in motivations for joining, in KOTOR 2. They all had their own themes.

Considering Avellone did them both, who/what can you blame for the effect you perceive in Torment other than the setting? Others that were involved? But outside of blame, the results of all this for the new game will depend on the same stuff: setting, theme, rationale for NPCs. Won't necessarily be the same, but there is the possibility such as what Infinitron pointed out about the PC...

 

[Roguey]

Considering Avellone did them both, who/what can you blame for the effect you perceive in Torment other than the setting?

Orange County making Avellone grow as a person (literally when it came to muscles) and exposing him to more women, rather than just the kind he read about in Archie comics and genre fiction.

 

[majestik12]

Exactly why is sex is bad for RPGs? It didn't ruin any of the games form current Codex Top 10.

 

[tuluse]

Considering Avellone did them both, who/what can you blame for the effect you perceive in Torment other than the setting?

Orange County making Avellone grow as a person (literally when it came to muscles) and exposing him to more women, rather than just the kind he read about in Archie comics and genre fiction.

Didn't he write Torment immediately after getting dumped?

 

[Roguey]

Didn't he write Torment immediately after getting dumped?

I dunno, but I do know he was a fat, sheltered kid from Virginia.

 

[Black]

So apparently we still don't know whether it'll be turn-based or bad?

 

[winterraptor]

Orange County making Avellone grow as a person (literally when it came to muscles) and exposing him to more women, rather than just the kind he read about in Archie comics and genre fiction.

Well that's rather interesting...

I would still maintain any end-game co-dependence was primarily due to the thematic. But when getting into the psychology of the designer, you can blame the whole theme, and its entirely subjective. Is what it is.

Also, Falls-From-Grace as a succubus at least, was pretty much opposite of genre.

 

[Delterius]

So apparently we still don't know whether it'll be turn-based or bad?

Apparently, it will be phase based.

 

[Infinitron]

So apparently we still don't know whether it'll be turn-based or bad?

Apparently, it will be phase based.

No. It hasn't been decided yet what combat Torment will have, and it will be some time before it is.

Phase-based is just what they're leaning towards at the moment. A few weeks before that they were leaning toward real time, so, these things can change.