World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Roguey]

And even more notably, it leaves you guessing. If they had provided a nice, pat explanation for it at the end, the impact would have been much lessened.

Only if you ignore all the characters who say "It's literally Caine."

Edit: for posterity

Spoiler

 

[Nano]

I’ve gotta say, I was feeling good about this until I read Brian’s blog post. That’s some of the most lifeless prose I’ve ever seen. I hope he just had a marketing flack write it for him while he works on the game, but to me it reads like the emails my sister used to send me when she was on too much Lithium. Is Brian Mitsoda okay?

Compare it with Brian's blogs about Torn from 2001. Better or worse?

https://web.archive.org/web/20020210093329/http://www.gamespy.com/devdiary/april01/torn1/index2.shtm
https://web.archive.org/web/20010604020148/http://www.gamespy.com/devdiary/may01/torn2/
https://web.archive.org/web/20010617153020/http://www.gamespy.com/devdiary/may01/torn3/index2.shtm

 

[Cross]

Yeah, Bloodlines is far too generous with experience and by the end of the game you would maxed most of your core stats out and probably 2 out of your 3 disciplines. Bloodlines 2 seems to be taking the superpower centric approach as well. Your clan choice would be picking which part of the discipline tree you want to unlock. I hope they at least implement thin blood mechanics like having a very low blood pool.

Now now, the super power approach isn't a fair criticism to Bloodlines of all things. One of the notable things about the game is that while it defaults to the power growth of a typical RPG protagonist, it recognizes all the ways it stretches and breaks the setting.

The point of the latter half of the game is to point out that your sudden exponential power growth from Hollywood forwards surprises and shocks everyone in the city. And the game makes a point of leaving reasons for us to speculate. From LaCroix's domination to the strange cabby. From Isaac's calibrated business like praise and hopes that you'll see LaCroix for the shit he is to how Ming Xiao goes from trying to murder you at every turn to try and persuade for your support.

That was actually one of the weaker aspects of Bloodlines' plot. Your exponential power growth never amounted to any meaningful story development, since you were still being ordered around like an errand boy until the very end.

Making the player character a subordinate to a higher-up in some organization is rarely a good idea in an RPG (unless it's the setup for escaping that organization, a la Deus Ex), since it tends to lead to railroading and contrived restrictions on what the player character can do.

 

[Lacrymas]

Correct. And considering that Diablerie is likely in the cards for BL2 then we probably won't be left guessing.

I can't see how diablerie could have been involved. Anybody with Auspex would have been able to tell. Masking that would require jumping through a quite a few hoops...

Well, the city is at war isn't it?

Diablerie is always taboo, no matter the context. The only vampires who can get away with it are really powerful ones who use it to change the status quo, like Giovanni diablerizing Cappadocius, or Tremere diablerizing Saulot (unsuccessfully). If you are a run-off-the-mill vampire, you'll be staked and executed the moment you enter a Camarilla area. It isn't something you are banned from using only in peaceful times, casually doing it because it's war isn't a justification. The Sabbat and the Assamites don't condemn it, however.

 

[Zombra]

Art is not a safe space, at least not when you are voluntarily subjecting yourself to it, knowing what to expect.

The bolded part is key. Whether Codexers recognize it or not, rape has a different tenor from killing; it's not simply "like murder but not as bad". The author clearly didn't expect a rape scene; that's what that whole article is about.

Where artists create stuff out of their own pocket, they are free to create whatever they want with no obligated considerations, especially Cara's safe spaces.

Of course they are. And previewers are free to react to that and write about those reactions. That's their job.

She misjudges the product by viewing it through a completely false and misguided lens and shows hypocrisy while doing it. It's poor taste and that's abominable.

That's your opinion, because I guess you see rape and murder as essentially the same. Before this scene, I would not have described Hotline Miami as that series about killing and rape. Your argument only makes sense if you don't see the distinction.

She's (probably) aware of the power she holds as an ideologue and spilling virtual ink to basically bully the developers is ...not good. It's an attempt at censorship, plain and simple.

lol. So it's "bullying" now to say you didn't like something about a game? Jesus christ. Again: nowhere does she make any kind of call for a ban. She says "I don't like this and I'm confused about it." That's it.

It's bizarre how many people are trying to play both sides of the "free speech" coin.

It's not a review because the entire piece is slanted towards that rape scene from the very beginning, clearly showing bias and where the important for her moment is.

So what's the problem? You hold her personally responsible because the government of Australia holds the same bias?

I don't think she really asked any question in the end. Her conclusion is that she felt manipulated and that women get the short end of the stick in video games, which... okay, sure, not disagreeing with that, but if that's your takeaway from Indiscriminate Murder Simulator 2, then maybe you're barking up the wrong tree here.

As I touched on above, I slept on it and decided that it actually does make sense to be shocked by a rape scene in a combat game. Killing is horrible and rape is horrible, but that doesn't make them a single, shared context. They're disturbing for very different reasons - being desensitized to one doesn't mean that suddenly introducing the other will have no impact on the audience. In fact it would be very weird to expect such. When I play Murder Simulator 2 I do have certain expectations. Hey, it might be awesome for the devs to shatter those expectations; that's what artists are supposed to do - but if they do it in a disturbing way, I might talk about that.

Which ties into my concern with her as lead writer for a game full with violence, abuse and sex. Unlike most people here, I don't really care if the new game deals with sexual identity, it's fitting for a Vampire game in 2019 and Bloodlines had at least one well done gay character. But when the lead writer sees a room full of blood, gore and general fuckshit and all she can blurt out is "women in video games, huh, guys?"...

Fair enough. I'll repeat that expectation is key here: entering a situation knowing you're going to be dunked in apple juice, and then having lemon juice squirted in your eyes ... it makes sense to go "Hey, that's not why I'm here." There's certainly nothing wrong if you don't share her responses and doubt what she writes will be to your taste.

I don't even remember what got this conversation started in the first place ... oh yeah, it was when others characterized Ellison as a "campaigner" for banning and censorship. I think you and I at least agree that's not the case. Anyway it's perfectly valid to feel that you might not like the game since the point of view of the writer is not one you care to read about. So ... sorry I guess. Hope you can find some games out there by writers you like.

 

[Delterius]

Correct. And considering that Diablerie is likely in the cards for BL2 then we probably won't be left guessing.

I can't see how diablerie could have been involved. Anybody with Auspex would have been able to tell. Masking that would require jumping through a quite a few hoops...

Well, the city is at war isn't it?

Diablerie is always taboo, no matter the context. The only vampires who can get away with it are really powerful ones who use it to change the status quo, like Giovanni diablerizing Cappadocius, or Tremere diablerizing Saulot (unsuccessfully). If you are a run-off-the-mill vampire, you'll be staked and executed the moment you enter a Camarilla area. It isn't something you are banned from using only in peaceful times, casually doing it because it's war isn't a justification. The Sabbat and the Assamites don't condemn it, however.

Hmmm. I'm not saying that you can get away with it, only that with the city at war and everyone already hating you by default your best bet is becoming an autarch with at best connections in a clan. Its like if the whole game is a longer version of Bloodlines' final act where people don't have that much time to deal with every single problem, you being one of the big ones flying under the radar until its too late.

 

[Prime Junta]

Yep.

Of the vampires we meet, LaCroix is the only one in a position where he just conceivably might get away with it, or driven half-mad with ambition at least could convince himself that he might get away with it, wherefore his lust for the Sarcophagus. If it had actually contained a sleeping methuselah, anyone else would have had to be colossally stupid to even consider it. Other than the Sabbat of course.

(Moreover, even if he had gotten away with it, it's more likely that the methuselah's far more potent vitae would have overwhelmed LaCroix. The methuselah would have un-lived again in LaCroix's skin. A being with the power of an ancient with none of the lethargy – something truly terrifying, not to mention world-shaking.)

 

[Tao]

As far as i know in the new lore there is this thing call the withering. So is not as taboo as before.

https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Withering

I just dont want to be a caitiff. So i hope HL let us "upgrade" as a full clan member vampire if they indeed intend to make us start as a thinblood. I dont care if is it against the new lore.

 

[Storyfag]

Correct. And considering that Diablerie is likely in the cards for BL2 then we probably won't be left guessing.

I can't see how diablerie could have been involved. Anybody with Auspex would have been able to tell. Masking that would require jumping through a quite a few hoops...

Well, the city is at war isn't it?

Diablerie is always taboo, no matter the context. The only vampires who can get away with it are really powerful ones who use it to change the status quo, like Giovanni diablerizing Cappadocius, or Tremere diablerizing Saulot (unsuccessfully). If you are a run-off-the-mill vampire, you'll be staked and executed the moment you enter a Camarilla area. It isn't something you are banned from using only in peaceful times, casually doing it because it's war isn't a justification. The Sabbat and the Assamites don't condemn it, however.

Now, now. A Blood Hunt may end with a sanctioned diablerie of the offender on whom it is called.

 

[Utgard-Loki]

you could be a "caitiff" simply because you don't know which clan you belong to in the beginning. i can already see them doing something similar to oblivion where you choose your "class" only after the tutorial.

 

[J1M]

Wouldn't mind a blood hunt in this game.

 

[Delterius]

Your exponential power growth never amounted to any meaningful story development

i dunno about you but i killed 3/4s of los angeles

 

[Lacrymas]

Zombra, no, it's bullying because she (probably) knows how this will end. She's abusing her power without good justification. I specifically did not mention murder and rape anywhere to avoid having an argument about that and to point out that that's not what the problem is.

Hmmm. I'm not saying that you can get away with it, only that with the city at war and everyone already hating you by default your best bet is becoming an autarch with at best connections in a clan. Its like if the whole game is a longer version of Bloodlines' final act where people don't have that much time to deal with every single problem, you being one of the big ones flying under the radar until its too late.

No Camarilla or neutral clan will associate with a thin-blood diablerist, let alone make them their agent.

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

Zombra, no, it's bullying because she (probably) knows how this will end. She's abusing her power without good justification. I specifically did not mention murder and rape anywhere to avoid having an argument about that and to point out that that's not what the problem is.

Is not it the mirrored typical SJW argument? Like, white guys should not say anything critical about wymen, because by doing this they are abusing their power.

 

[Zombra]

Zombra, no, it's bullying because she (probably) knows how this will end.

So it's the responsibility of everyone in games-related media to never say anything that they speculate might hurt a developer, because doing so is censorship. Got it.

 

[Removal]

the withering

didn't all the Gehenna books get handwaved away/retconned when they cancelled nWoD and went back to oWoD

 

[santino27]

Game looks like gay shit, btw. Can't wait for the quest where we have to collect blackmail evidence on corrupt politician Ronald Grump who is trying to ban gay vampire marriage! Or an epic VTMB callback quest where we have to collect estrogen for a male ghoul who wants to transition! Very eager to see all the dialogue filled with endless Joss Whedon-esque quips and incredibly transgressive humor like female characters saying "dick" or "fuck." Oh it's a young female character and she said FUCK and DICKS and FART haha XDD Bet you didn't expect that huh white dude?? Are you scared of how liberated our characters are? Or how about this character who is an outrageous faggot that constantly hits on your male main character and talks about getting shit shoved up his ass? Too sexy for you, bigot?

yeah and I bet it will also have a communist vampire
like someone who says something along the lines of "Communism would work for vampires where it failed for humans" in a serious manner

now THAT would be pretty silly

Damn it. Just when Prime Junta was out, you pulled him back in.

PlayStation blog by Brian Mitsoda: https://blog.us.playstation.com/201...squerade-bloodlines-2-revealed-out-next-year/

Spoiler

Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 Revealed, Out Next Year

It took an unlikely sequence of events to make this cult-hit sequel happen... but it's happening.


It started with a text: “Would you be interested in working on a Bloodlines 2?” The text was from my good friend, Ka’ai Cluney, and my first thought was, “Would I?” But as we texted back and forth, something happened — an idea started to emerge, the embryonic formation of what we are announcing today: Bloodlines 2. It’s still overwhelming to think about how many stars had to align to make this happen.

It’s not every day that a property gets resurrected after so many years, and there are multiple trials that need to be faced in order to even make it to the production stage. Ka’ai and I started fleshing out the world of Bloodlines 2 over a series of drinks in late 2015 — the iteration was rapid. Ka’ai had already talked Andy Kipling and Russ Nelson (the founders of Hardsuit) into setting up a pitch with Paradox after hearing that they had just acquired the World of Darkness IP. Paradox was eager to meet, and we ended up pitching the game in February 2016 at DICE.

We walked out of the room confident that all parties were energized about the idea – but it was a longshot for such a small, unknown company to snag a project like this. This is one of those rare times as a dev where you’re pretty sure it’s going to take a million coin flips to come up heads for all the paperwork to be signed, but shortly after the pitch Paradox and Hardsuit Labs were making a sequel to one of the biggest cult RPGs of all time.

Who is Hardsuit Labs, you might be asking? When I first started working with Hardsuit, it reminded me a lot of another small studio full of ambitious veterans and juniors: Troika Games, the developers of Bloodlines 1. Andy, Russ and Ka`ai put together a group that can only be described as a super-team of developers. Today, there are over 60 people working on Bloodlines 2 at Hardsuit Labs. And we’ve set our first major title right here in our home city of Seattle.

Why bring the World of Darkness to Seattle? Seattle has always attracted pioneers, artists, and opportunists — some dreamers, some criminals, sometimes both. In the 21st century, it’s a city whose identity is constantly struggling to retain its legacy and define its future. It’s a city of artists and craftsman, but also home to some of the biggest corporations in the world. It’s a conflict between the old and new, the weird and the wealthy, and an ideal setting for Vampire: The Masquerade. Bloodlines 2 is a reflection of modern Seattle and within it we’ve built a rich mythology based on the city’s history and present, filtered through the lens of the World of Darkness. You will stalk these streets, you will meet its power players, and you will claw and charm your way into the inner circle of Kindred society.

It’s been an amazing experience to return to the World of Darkness and make the true sequel to Bloodlines that you’ve all been waiting for. We could not be more excited to revive this universe after 15 years and — for the first time ever — bring Bloodlines to a PlayStation platform! Expect to hear more about the factions, clans, story and RPG systems in Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 in the months to come. Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 will release on PlayStation 4 in 2020!

I wonder if this will get weekly dev diary like other Paradox games, or are a year of dev diaries are too much for an RPG like this.

Hmm. I hope his in-game writing is better than that.

 

[Delterius]

After Epic stole Christmas this game's pre-orders are already a top-selling game on steam.

 

[Mastermind]

Art is not a safe space, at least not when you are voluntarily subjecting yourself to it, knowing what to expect.

The bolded part is key. Whether Codexers recognize it or not, rape has a different tenor from killing; it's not simply "like murder but not as bad". The author clearly didn't expect a rape scene; that's what that whole article is about.

Where artists create stuff out of their own pocket, they are free to create whatever they want with no obligated considerations, especially Cara's safe spaces.

Of course they are. And previewers are free to react to that and write about those reactions. That's their job.

She misjudges the product by viewing it through a completely false and misguided lens and shows hypocrisy while doing it. It's poor taste and that's abominable.

That's your opinion, because I guess you see rape and murder as essentially the same. Before this scene, I would not have described Hotline Miami as that series about killing and rape. Your argument only makes sense if you don't see the distinction.

She's (probably) aware of the power she holds as an ideologue and spilling virtual ink to basically bully the developers is ...not good. It's an attempt at censorship, plain and simple.

lol. So it's "bullying" now to say you didn't like something about a game? Jesus christ. Again: nowhere does she make any kind of call for a ban. She says "I don't like this and I'm confused about it." That's it.

It's bizarre how many people are trying to play both sides of the "free speech" coin.

It's not a review because the entire piece is slanted towards that rape scene from the very beginning, clearly showing bias and where the important for her moment is.

So what's the problem? You hold her personally responsible because the government of Australia holds the same bias?

I don't think she really asked any question in the end. Her conclusion is that she felt manipulated and that women get the short end of the stick in video games, which... okay, sure, not disagreeing with that, but if that's your takeaway from Indiscriminate Murder Simulator 2, then maybe you're barking up the wrong tree here.

As I touched on above, I slept on it and decided that it actually does make sense to be shocked by a rape scene in a combat game. Killing is horrible and rape is horrible, but that doesn't make them a single, shared context. They're disturbing for very different reasons - being desensitized to one doesn't mean that suddenly introducing the other will have no impact on the audience. In fact it would be very weird to expect such. When I play Murder Simulator 2 I do have certain expectations. Hey, it might be awesome for the devs to shatter those expectations; that's what artists are supposed to do - but if they do it in a disturbing way, I might talk about that.

Which ties into my concern with her as lead writer for a game full with violence, abuse and sex. Unlike most people here, I don't really care if the new game deals with sexual identity, it's fitting for a Vampire game in 2019 and Bloodlines had at least one well done gay character. But when the lead writer sees a room full of blood, gore and general fuckshit and all she can blurt out is "women in video games, huh, guys?"...

Fair enough. I'll repeat that expectation is key here: entering a situation knowing you're going to be dunked in apple juice, and then having lemon juice squirted in your eyes ... it makes sense to go "Hey, that's not why I'm here." There's certainly nothing wrong if you don't share her responses and doubt what she writes will be to your taste.

I don't even remember what got this conversation started in the first place ... oh yeah, it was when others characterized Ellison as a "campaigner" for banning and censorship. I think you and I at least agree that's not the case. Anyway it's perfectly valid to feel that you might not like the game since the point of view of the writer is not one you care to read about. So ... sorry I guess. Hope you can find some games out there by writers you like.

please shut the fuck up and crawl back to the Watch shithole you crawled out of

 

[Lacrymas]

Is not it the mirrored typical SJW argument? Like, white guys should not say anything critical about wymen, because by doing this they are abusing their power.

The article isn't critical, it's whiny and reactionary, but with the power to censor. Anyway, even if it was, this is a game of proportions and contexts. An intelligent SJW's argument about this will be that institutionalized bias against women by men in power is the problem (or a system in which such a power dynamic is commonplace). It's about the (perceived) unjust hierarchy of gender, not about saying a woman's sammich is bad.

So it's the responsibility of everyone in games-related media to never say anything that they speculate might hurt a developer. Got it.

It's not about responsibility, I specifically said she isn't required to not be biased, but about that she shouldn't be in a position to spout nonsense which can get games banned and hurt creativity. She clearly isn't the person to decide such things and she being there makes the games industry worse. Her article is not a good example of candor.

Criticism is good only when it's intelligent and well-placed, not always about everything.

 

[Wesp5]

Say goodnight.

The bit with the Malkavian Inquisition is from myself, as there wasn't a special Malkavian answer in the original 1

 

[Tao]

the withering

didn't all the Gehenna books get handwaved away/retconned when they cancelled nWoD and went back to oWoD

I dont really know what it is/not cannon anymore but the retcon was just assuming that all this weird events are not omens of the Gehenna but the Gehenna itself, and that the antedilivuan and elders are (probably) waging war in the middle east.

Then again, i have no real clue.

 

[Wesp5]

Played us like a damn fiddle.

I just had too !

Please, give us your impressions of the gameplay demo.

I didn't see much, basically the intro and the tutorial which is described in all the magazine reviews. After that the game crashed so I didn't even see the main Seattle hub! My first impression was indeed that it starts off similar to Bloodlines and I laughed out loud when I saw the pier. Even with the bad web video quality the graphics looked gorgeous, and although it says no gameplay in the trailer, this is pretty like it looked in engine! But the best part of the demo was your landlord coward vampire. Mitsoda writing in all it's funny greatness !

 

[hivemind]

that the antedilivuan and elders are (probably) waging war in the middle east.

white liberals are so fucking racist

I remember getting so triggered about 5eds like "sabbath went to syria because it's easier to hide being killers ther what with all the dumb brown people killing themselves" like LMAO BUDDY I HAVE A LIVE TWITTER FEED OF EVERYTHING GOING ON IN SYRIA CONSTANTLY LITERALLY SHORT VIDEOS OF ASSASINATIONS AND SKIRMISHES HOW THE fuck WOULD Sabbath HIDE THERE

reee

fuck white people

 

[Lacrymas]

I dont really know what it is/not cannon anymore but the retcon was just assuming that all this weird events are not omens of the Gehenna but the Gehenna itself, and that the antedilivuan and elders are (probably) waging war in the middle east.

Then again, i have no real clue.

Beckett speculates either people have misinterpreted the signs of Gehenna a lot of times and this is just another one of those times; like irl prophecies, people have attributed multiple events to the same prophecy because it's vague and a lot of things can fit; or that Gehenna isn't as apocalyptic as commonly suggested and is cyclical.