Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[Riddler]

But then he goes and makes his "bonus spreadsheet" to decide how to distribute the bonuses

Must suck being the guy on the bonus list getting the least. I mean, Tim could as well just call him out, getting the least amount of the bonus might well be a death sign.

Presumably they didn't announce the spreadsheet publicly?

 

[Alienman]

Presumably they didn't announce the spreadsheet publicly?

I see. I just assumed he showed Fargo.

 

[Roguey]

Roguey, when's the last time you coded something relatively complex that was bug-free on the first attempt?

Mistakes happen, but this mistake took so long to find and fix that it pushed Fallout into a different fiscal quarter (moved from September to October). This was not bonus-worthy behavior, someone had to pay.

Even if that is true the degree of the punishment was completely out of proportion to the good work that had been done.

If he was docked some pay for this but still received a large bonus he would've been a bit mad but likely stayed around. Docking his bonus to the point that he was in the lower third, despite being the director and overall huge contributor for a massive hit is insane.

That said, Fargo doesn't seem like a bad guy, and sometimes you make mistakes, especially when you're young.

This doesn't make sense to me. You're saying getting a paycut but an untouched bonus is preferable to keeping the same salary but a docking of the one-time bonus?

And while that is harsh, he was the one who took full responsibility for the game slipping out of the fiscal quarter. He opted to tank the damage and balked when he found out what that truly meant.

Presumably they didn't announce the spreadsheet publicly?

I see. I just assumed he showed Fargo.

Yeah, like he said, another contributing factor was that Fargo felt that he didn't give enough of a bonus to another employee so they took that cut and added it to his. That I'm more skeptical about. Tim doesn't come across like the kind of guy who would stiff someone because he doesn't personally like him, so that has the aura of unfair favoritism about it, rewarding a poorly performing employee for being likeable.

 

[Riddler]

This doesn't make sense to me. You're saying getting a paycut but an untouched bonus is preferable to keeping the same salary but a docking of the one-time bonus?

Sorry if i was unclear. I was talking about the bonus the entire time. I meant that reducing his bonus might have been a mistake but the major mistake was the size of the reduction.

 

[Lhynn]

Roguey reads like a fellow who has never done any kind of work in his life. Extremely naive takes on the reality of mistakes when it comes to complex engineering work.

Or interactions with human beings outside of monitor to monitor.

 

[0sacred]

> wants nobody to get shafted because it would have been unfair
> gets punished for someone else's mistake

Roguey: why does he complain?

 

[Tihskael]

I explain why I left Fallout 2 early in its development. TLDW: exhaustion, interference, lack of motivation.

Tim probably likes Fallout 3 more than Fallout 2. He mentions humour a lot and if I remember correctly he thought FO3 got humour right, whereas in the video he pans Fallout 2 for its in-your-face jokes. New Vegas is his favourite of the bunch though, no question.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Roguey is a typical humanities guy who struggles with logic.

Follow this, Roguey.
- "Fargo built a giant company, hence he is incapable of mistakes", according to you
- His unmistakable leadership has then lead to the demise of the same company
- ????

Clearly something is wrong here. I'll leave it to you to figure out what.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Though of course this is just me sinking to his level of thinking. It's a boring stupid fallacy called "argument to authority". A mistake is a mistake, even if the pope makes it, let alone Fargo.

Engineering is not a sure thing. Elon Musk's rockets blow up all the time. Nobody gets fired for it out of spite.

 

[Roguey]

> wants nobody to get shafted because it would have been unfair
> gets punished for someone else's mistake

Roguey: why does he complain?

"No one gets punished" was not an option.

Roguey is a typical humanities guy who struggles with logic.

Follow this, Roguey.
- "Fargo built a giant company, hence he is incapable of mistakes", according to you
- His unmistakable leadership has then lead to the demise of the same company
- ????

Clearly something is wrong here. I'll leave it to you to figure out what.

Oh he made a ton of mistakes, but I would not consider this one of them. We saw where Tim Cain leadership ended up. You need the stick to go along with the carrot.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

We saw where Tim Cain leadership ended up. You need the stick to go along with the carrot.

I'd rather you asked when you don't know something, than make arrogant statements.

It doesn't matter where "Tim Cain leadership ended" or whatever else whataboutism you want to make. I could describe to you how programming works and why bugs aren't programmers' fault, but instead of asking something you don't know, you prefer being a cunt. To each his own.

 

[0sacred]

> wants nobody to get shafted because it would have been unfair
> gets punished for someone else's mistake

Roguey: why does he complain?

"No one gets punished" was not an option.

o rly?

Arbitrary punishments are a hallmark of bad leaders btw. Was there some kind of policy in place that whoever is to blame for a deadline being blown, gets his bonus cut? No? Then why was there 'no other option'?

 

[Roguey]

bugs aren't programmers' fault

There are bad and mediocre programmers out there, that's a fact. Interplay's programming team was notoriously bad, a fact that Avellone acknowledged back in the May of Rage when he pointed out all the problems they had coming up with their own engines and working with others (Descent, Lithtech, etc). Tim Cain spent three years working on Fallout's engine and it was so outdated on release Interplay couldn't be bothered to do anything other than release one slam dunk with it. By contrast, what Micro Forte did in 18 months with Fallout Tactics's engine was incredible (though it had its problems, likely on account of what little time they had). And of course there's Bioware's Infinity Engine that they got far more use out of it (that Bioware and other studios [Obsidian, CD Projekt] continued using up through Dragon Age II).

Arbitrary punishments are a hallmark of bad leaders btw. Was there some kind of policy in place that whoever is to blame for a deadline being blown, gets his bonus cut? No?

Who's to say? You'd have to ask Brian.

 

[PapaPetro]

I guess we know where MCA stands.

 

[0sacred]

Arbitrary punishments are a hallmark of bad leaders btw. Was there some kind of policy in place that whoever is to blame for a deadline being blown, gets his bonus cut? No?

Who's to say? You'd have to ask Brian.

if there had been I don't think Tim would have omitted this small but highly important tidbit

 

[PapaPetro]

Arbitrary punishments are a hallmark of bad leaders btw. Was there some kind of policy in place that whoever is to blame for a deadline being blown, gets his bonus cut? No?

Who's to say? You'd have to ask Brian.

if there had been I don't think Tim would have omitted this small but highly important tidbit

Fallout 1 was Tim's only Producer credit and it looked like Fargo tried to push him hard into that kind of management/overhead position (e.g. doling-out bonuses on a per employee basis).

If you look at his roles after Fallout/Interplay, he was more of a design/programmer kinda guy and didn't want the roles Fargo had envisioned for him. A good leader not only identifies talent but knows where they can fit best. Fargo was jamming a square peg in a round hole with Tim Cain (punishing him for the late release was petulant of Fargo if he was trying to groom Tim as a producer on his first [sleeper] release. Lost him completely which is the opposite of his "tough love" intentions and approach: that's an L).

Case in point, some people will shit on your miracles no matter how good you made their wish turned out for them. Fallout's surprise success and legacy is definitely one of those miracles in gaming.

 

[Rocket-Propelled Game]

Cringe in the comments:

Oof that coeraive pregnancy anecdote is pretty rough in retrospect. Thank God for ttrpg safety tools now.
Would you ever want to roleplay again, Tim? I'd happily run something. FO1 and 2 were games I played everyday in the same era when I first discovered D&D, and a lot of those early lessons informed much of how I write and design TTRPGs now.

Yeah, that pregnancy thing was weird even then. I never liked romances in RPGs, tabletop or computer, so that whole storyline came from a comment another player made about Catherine's druid agreeing to marry the Dirk the anti-paladin to save the party. That player said that she hoped that the druid and anti-paladin didn't consummate their marriage, so Catherine and I agreed to roll a die to see if she was pregnant. She was.

Later the party found a cursed belt that changed the wearer's gender, and it started a LONG uncomfortable discussion about what would happen if the pregnant druid put it on.

Romance in TTRPGs is fine, as long as the players agree that's the kind of game they want to play. Plenty of indie TTRPGs have that as a design focus. It's the lack of consent in the forced marriage and pregnancy that becomes an issue.

Agreed. I should point out that the druid initiated the conversation with the anti-paladin, who was just going to attack the party, and suggested sacrificing herself so the party could live. I rolled a really high reaction roll from the anti-paladin, even before adding the druid's 18 charisma bonus, so he agreed. None of this was planned, and the players directed this interaction as much as I did.

Still, these things make me uncomfortable because you can never tell if everyone at the table is perceiving this situation the same way. I mean, here I was planning on a big battle in dark castle between the anti-paladin (and his men-at-arms) and the player party, and I ended up with the druid discussing which room in the castle to use as a nursery.

It was a weird night. But if anything, it underscores my point that the DM never knows what the players are going to do.

*woman initiates sex-for-favors roleplaying*

"Noooooooooo we need safety tools to deal with this!"

Who's the husband? There are two guys on the right. One of them looks like a fag, but at the same time looks too young for Tim.

The beardo with the nose ring. Tim is into fellow bears.

Aw Christ, he's one of those X-cards/safety tools/trigger warnings/safe spaces wankers? I don't know whether to respect him and his contributions or call him a whiny pussy bitch. Either way he's living down to the stereotypes of gay men being whiny and delicate here.

 

[Roguey]

if there had been I don't think Tim would have omitted this small but highly important tidbit

People can omit a lot of things for various reasons. Which is more likely: it was standard practice for CEOs like Brian to reprimand individual employees when their actions hurt the bottom line or Brian suddenly decided he wanted to go bad well over a decade in the industry?

 

[PapaPetro]

if there had been I don't think Tim would have omitted this small but highly important tidbit

People can omit a lot of things for various reasons. Which is more likely: it was standard practice for CEOs like Brian to reprimand individual employees when their actions hurt the bottom line or Brian suddenly decided he wanted to go bad well over a decade in the industry?

Fargo was wet behind the ears. He comes from money (Wells Fargo the bank) and had no formal Business School training when he founded Interplay and placed himself on top. Early onset hubris.

The 90s gaming golden age was propped up from the bottom with highly talented and sincerely motivated game devs/designers/programmers/artists. Now there's degree mills spitting out dime a dozen "talent" to work for the Bobby Koticks, Todd Howards and Chris Fargos of this world.

 

[Diggfinger]

I explain why I left Fallout 2 early in its development. TLDW: exhaustion, interference, lack of motivation.

Tim probably likes Fallout 3 more than Fallout 2. He mentions humour a lot and if I remember correctly he thought FO3 got humour right, whereas in the video he pans Fallout 2 for its in-your-face jokes. New Vegas is his favourite of the bunch though, no question.

Not so.

Cain repeatedly says humor is what he didnt like about F3, but thought it would be unfair to call it out (since humor is subjective).
Example (3min onwards)
Matt Barton interview

 

[Lexx]

Imagine how much more buggy Fo1 would have been if they didn't delay it for a couple more months. I'd even argue they should have pushed it for at least another 3 months.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

That said, Fargo doesn't seem like a bad guy, and sometimes you make mistakes, especially when you're young.

His wiki says he was born in 62 while Fallout released in 97.

Which means that Brian Fargo was 20 years old when this blurb appeared in Softline magazine for his first game, The Demon's Forge:

And yes, Brian Fargo appropriated a Vicente Segrelles painting for the original cover of his first game, although this artwork was replaced for later releases.

 

[ds]

There are bad and mediocre programmers out there, that's a fact.

And a single bug is not a sign of a mediocre programmer but a sign of every programmer who has worked on a non-trivial project, which you have been told multiple times in this thread by people who actually know what they are talking about. That's why Tim was handling the bonus distribution for the team in the first place: because he's the one who would know what overall contribution each member made and doesn't just see the thinks like the bug that broke schedule after all the others that wasted time before that. Fargo trying to find a scapegoat to punish for the delay is just him trying to cover up his own management failures. And dishing the punishment an Tim because he stood up for his team by not revealing the culprit is nothing but spite.

It seems there are also mediocre posters out there who can't admit when they made a retarded take and instead keep grasping at straws, moving from "Fargo did nothing wrong" to "I'm agreeing with the guy who built up his own multi-million dollar business" to "someone had to pay" to maybe "it was standard practice" or whatever cope you're onto now. Either that or you really are just shitposting - but then the end result is the same.

 

[Roguey]

The 90s gaming golden age was propped up from the bottom with highly talented and sincerely motivated game devs/designers/programmers/artists.

Brian Fargo was one of those guys.

Fargo trying to find a scapegoat to punish for the delay is just him trying to cover up his own management failures.

How was it Fargo's fault that Fallout got delayed? He put Tim in charge.

And dishing the punishment an Tim because he stood up for his team by not revealing the culprit is nothing but spite.

Yeah, that's what bosses do. Some 20 years ago, I knew a guy who was one of the most productive employees and his supervisor liked him. He hated the time-wasting meetings he had to participate in and made a bunch of jokes in one when it was his turn to be in charge of minutes. His boss's boss didn't like that and told him he needed to be more professional. My pal had a bit of a chip on his shoulder and said no. They immediately fired him for insubordination and had security escort him from the building, his productivity and good work didn't matter. Most of the states have at-will employment and you can leave or be fired for any reason at any time. Fargo would have been within his rights to fire Tim for saying no to him, and there are plenty of bosses who would have, but Brian clearly valued what Tim had to offer. In hindsight, it would have been better for his ego just to fire him since the outcome would have been the same.

 

[Infinitron]

Fallout 1 was Tim's only Producer credit and it looked like Fargo tried to push him hard into that kind of management/overhead position (e.g. doling-out bonuses on a per employee basis).

If you look at his roles after Fallout/Interplay, he was more of a design/programmer kinda guy and didn't want the roles Fargo had envisioned for him. A good leader not only identifies talent but knows where they can fit best. Fargo was jamming a square peg in a round hole with Tim Cain (punishing him for the late release was petulant of Fargo if he was trying to groom Tim as a producer on his first [sleeper] release. Lost him completely which is the opposite of his "tough love" intentions and approach: that's an L).

This might be true, but Tim did choose to go out and found his own company afterwards.