Fallout 2 was always incline

[Davaris]

Tim Cain said half the people making Fallout didn't like the time limit, and they argued over it until it shipped. Later Tim had it taken out in the patch. I liked it.

https://gdcvault.com/play/1015843/Classic-Game-Postmortem

Fallout 1 coming out at all, and turning out as good as it did was down to luck as much as skill. I wish they would release the source code to F1 (before some idiot loses it), so we can see how it was done.

 

[Ryan muller]

Tim Cain said half the people making Fallout didn't like the time limit, and they argued over it until it shipped. Later Tim had it taken out in the patch. I liked it.

https://gdcvault.com/play/1015843/Classic-Game-Postmortem

Fallout 1 coming out at all, and turning out as good as it did was down to luck as much as skill. I wish they would release the source code to F1 (before some idiot loses it), so we can see how it was done.

Only the second time limit was cut

Dude was arguing against the first one.

 

[GentlemanCthulhu]

I don't understand how the same people who made Fallout 2 can make The Outer Worlds. It's been three years and I'm still stuck on how large the gap of quality is between the two releases.

 

[smaug]

Fallout 2 is clearly worse than 1 since it doesn't really have a time limit. That alone is enough to show the first game's supremacy.

I’m not really sure what the point of the timer is aside from a sense of urgency. I failed the timer in my first play through because I never noticed it in the menu, despite the warnings and was forced to start over. This is unfortunate because on my first character, I went around the game in a non-linear and unorthodox way while searching for the chip, while also getting into my own unique situations (exploring nearly the entire map because I died in necropolis thinking it was too much for me to handle).

So, I ended up starting over with a much better character and then breezing through the content I had already done and playing the intended order to get the water chip.

So, the time limit just made me start over and replay the game, however, I fail to see how his is great RPG design. I think the main reason for it’s implementation was to stop spam healing, but there were so many stimpacks in the game it ended up not really making much of a difference. I could see the use of timers in normal quest (which I think is fine), but not the main quests unless you would prefer to make a strategy/roguelike game instead.

 

[Alex]

Fallout 2 is clearly worse than 1 since it doesn't really have a time limit. That alone is enough to show the first game's supremacy.

I’m not really sure what the point of the timer is aside from a sense of urgency. I failed the timer in my first play through because I never noticed it in the menu, despite the warnings and was forced to start over. This is unfortunate because on my first character, I went around the game in a non-linear and unorthodox way while searching for the chip, while also getting into my own unique situations (exploring nearly the entire map because I died in necropolis thinking it was too much for me to handle).

So, I ended up starting over with a much better character and then breezing through the content I had already done and playing the intended order to get the water chip.

So, the time limit just made me start over and replay the game, however, I fail to see how his is great RPG design. I think the main reason for it’s implementation was to stop spam healing, but there were so many stimpacks in the game it ended up not really making much of a difference. I could see the use of timers in normal quest (which I think is fine), but not the main quests unless you would prefer to make a strategy/roguelike game instead.

It is great RPG design because it makes time actually matter instead of just window dressing. Even better would be if the strategic actions of the master were simulated across the map, but that is probably the kind of thing most companies would stay away from since it is difficult to make it work with heavily scripted games.

 

[Ryan muller]

Fallout 2 is clearly worse than 1 since it doesn't really have a time limit. That alone is enough to show the first game's supremacy.

I’m not really sure what the point of the timer is aside from a sense of urgency. I failed the timer in my first play through because I never noticed it in the menu, despite the warnings and was forced to start over. This is unfortunate because on my first character, I went around the game in a non-linear and unorthodox way while searching for the chip, while also getting into my own unique situations (exploring nearly the entire map because I died in necropolis thinking it was too much for me to handle).

So, I ended up starting over with a much better character and then breezing through the content I had already done and playing the intended order to get the water chip.

So, the time limit just made me start over and replay the game, however, I fail to see how his is great RPG design. I think the main reason for it’s implementation was to stop spam healing, but there were so many stimpacks in the game it ended up not really making much of a difference. I could see the use of timers in normal quest (which I think is fine), but not the main quests unless you would prefer to make a strategy/roguelike game instead.

It is great RPG design because it makes time actually matter instead of just window dressing. Even better would be if the strategic actions of the master were simulated across the map, but that is probably the kind of thing most companies would stay away from since it is difficult to make it work with heavily scripted games.

Only for necropolis.

Which is why i recommended fixt, timer wasnt properly implemented as it should have been which means its only relevant for creating urgency, not really dynamism

 

[smaug]

Fallout 2 is clearly worse than 1 since it doesn't really have a time limit. That alone is enough to show the first game's supremacy.

I’m not really sure what the point of the timer is aside from a sense of urgency. I failed the timer in my first play through because I never noticed it in the menu, despite the warnings and was forced to start over. This is unfortunate because on my first character, I went around the game in a non-linear and unorthodox way while searching for the chip, while also getting into my own unique situations (exploring nearly the entire map because I died in necropolis thinking it was too much for me to handle).

So, I ended up starting over with a much better character and then breezing through the content I had already done and playing the intended order to get the water chip.

So, the time limit just made me start over and replay the game, however, I fail to see how his is great RPG design. I think the main reason for it’s implementation was to stop spam healing, but there were so many stimpacks in the game it ended up not really making much of a difference. I could see the use of timers in normal quest (which I think is fine), but not the main quests unless you would prefer to make a strategy/roguelike game instead.

It is great RPG design because it makes time actually matter instead of just window dressing. Even better would be if the strategic actions of the master were simulated across the map, but that is probably the kind of thing most companies would stay away from since it is difficult to make it work with heavily scripted games.

It seems you would prefer a strategy game instead.

 

[Ereshkigal]

I don't understand how the same people who made Fallout 2 can make The Outer Worlds

Games are made by a group of people, not just the visible spearheads who put their names on them. This has been proven time and time again every attempt at a comeback from a "legendary developer". Also Tim Cain came out of the closet and lost that special pent-up anger he had for having to roleplay a straight person every day.

As for the topic subject, I used to think like that but every time I replay 2 I suffer until I get to New Reno. The early to mid game is such a chore, and the quest design is terrible. It offers better roleplaying but at what cost?

 

[Ryan muller]

As for the topic subject, I used to think like that but every time I replay 2 I suffer until I get to New Reno. The early to mid game is such a chore, and the quest design is terrible. It offers better roleplaying but at what cost?

Because of the lack of guns? You can get one at klamath and even if you dont due to the rat cave being boring, you can just skip it and get it at the den (which is what i do) or just walk around, get a random encounter with raiders and get one from that. Not a big deal


Cant see how quest design is worst or terrible tho. Even most basic quests like rescuing smiley from toxic caves had way more behind them (an entire underground dungeon hidden in there)

You had awesome quests in new reno such as the whole thing with the bishops or the salvatoris's questline

Carriers were fun as hell, helping redding to recover from jet and choose which city would have them was intriguing

Modoc/slags conflict was incredibly morbid to say the least,etc..

Quest design in general was a massive improvement over 1's quite simplistic design.

Only notorious quests in 1 were the boneyard conflict, Junktown's and the underground's murder quest at the hub

Aside from that they were pretty basic

 

[LarryTyphoid]

I played Fallout 2 first, so I might just be biased, but I thought that Fallout 2 had better writing. In Fallout 1, every interaction seems somewhat stilted. It's not really more grim than FO2, it's just more bland. This might just be because FO1 has more talking heads. In FO2, whenever someone has a talking head, they've got a lot of interesting stuff to say, but in FO1, you just get shitters like the Brotherhood of Steel guy with his weird, unfunny dialogue. The Chosen One also gets way more interesting and memorable dialogue options than the Vault Dweller. Maybe if I played FO1 first then I'd appreciate its atmosphere more, but as it stands I prefer the sequel.

People here also make it out like Fallout 2 is Borderlands-tier whacky bullshit, which is a huge overexaggeration in my opinion. The biggest difference between the two games tonally is that FO2 kinda has this adolescent and snide misanthropy to its writing, like A Boy and His Dog; both FO2 and ABaHD even end with the protagonists facing the last remains of the American government, with an edgy sort of "fuck the man!" vibe in both, although FO2 is considerably less whacky here. Anyway, if you find that sort of misanthropy distasteful then you'll prefer FO1, which is more indifferent. In a vacuum, I'd expect to prefer FO1 from the way I've described FO2, but in practice I think FO2 is more interesting.

 

[antimeridian]

People here also make it out like Fallout 2 is Borderlands-tier whacky bullshit, which is a huge overexaggeration in my opinion. The biggest difference between the two games tonally is that FO2 kinda has this adolescent and snide misanthropy to its writing, like A Boy and His Dog; both FO2 and ABaHD even end with the protagonists facing the last remains of the American government, with an edgy sort of "fuck the man!" vibe in both, although FO2 is considerably less whacky here. Anyway, if you find that sort of misanthropy distasteful then you'll prefer FO1, which is more indifferent. In a vacuum, I'd expect to prefer FO1 from the way I've described FO2, but in practice I think FO2 is more interesting.

Gotta agree with this. I was a little too young to witness a lot of the 90's pop culture stuff FO2 references, but even so they rarely bothered me in-game. FO1 wasn't free of this stuff anyway, there was less of it but it's always been a part of the series identity. I love the irreverent style of FO2's writing as described here. FO2's writing, especially for the player character, has a lot more flair than FO1's, which will appeal more to some, and push others away. FO1's writing is often very barebones, functional and little more. I can't remember who wrote what off the top of my head but lots of bits in FO1 (various characters and lots of the logs and holodisks) feel extremely slapdash, first-draft material which never even received an editing pass. You get the sense that individual designers were tossing together dialogue for the areas and quests they designed without much unifying QC. Sometimes it really serves the overall bleak tone, but sometimes it really falls apart. Shit like the Thieves' Guild is as out-of-place as almost anything in FO2.

FO2 absolutely takes the cake in terms of gameplay, the systems have so much more room to breathe with the amount of content, items, levels, locations etc. (ofc all pioneered by FO1). Quest design is a mixed bag in both; as someone pointed out above FO1 has a few standouts and a lot of other very simple quests, while FO2 has some long, intricate questlines (Vault City-Redding-NCR) that bring the world to life and sell the post-post-apocalyptic themes of rebuilding. A plus in my book. However FO2 also often locks quest solutions beyond a single hard check and you often end up with the feeling that you're searching for the designer-intended solution (in a bad way) rather than solving problems organically. FO2 makes this mistake in its main quest too with finding the G.E.C.K. in V13, and the mandatory tough combat section in the tanker. And more options with the Enclave would have been nice. But there's lots of other cool stuff such as the different checks for discovering V13's location and so on.

I prefer FO2 but understand the love for FO1. Rough gems both where limited resources/rushed development were responsible for a lot of their flaws.

 

[vota DC]

FO2 was shortly after 1 and improved many things, so 1 was better because was the first game....if opposite (2 out before 1) then 1 wouldn't be better at all. If you remove novelty value then 1 Is better than 2 only in few fields (for example starting as vault dweller Is cooler than starting as tribal)

About second time limit....I don't like It because you can destroy military base and they still invade....would be cool if Master would be able to reorganize with a smaller base if you wait too much.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

Fallout 1's quests seem like they're a lot more loose in their design, and can break easily. At least, that was my experience on my first playthrough. It's actually a fond memory, with all of Killian's men suddenly becoming aggro, leading to me being forced to most everyone in the town and being marked a "Marauder" for the rest of the game, despite intending to be a good guy.

 

[Harthwain]

FO2 makes this mistake in its main quest too with finding the G.E.C.K. in V13, and the mandatory tough combat section in the tanker.

Isn't that the reason why the tutorial strongly suggests the player to make a character that can pass the combat trial?

 

[antimeridian]

FO2 makes this mistake in its main quest too with finding the G.E.C.K. in V13, and the mandatory tough combat section in the tanker.

Isn't that the reason why the tutorial strongly suggests the player to make a character that can pass the combat trial?

Could be, but the tutorial also rewards the player for experimenting since you can still talk or sneak through. I always took that to mean the game was telling me I'd always have options even when I didn't think I did, but there aren't any alternatives to the tanker fight to install the parts. I don't think you can sneak through there iirc.

I do think too much is made of FO1 pacifist runs. I mean yeah it's possible but requires intense metagaming so most characters do have to end up competent in combat anyway, but it's still a shame FO2 railroads the player at that point.

 

[KainenMorden]

I don't understand how the same people who made Fallout 2 can make The Outer Worlds

Games are made by a group of people, not just the visible spearheads who put their names on them. This has been proven time and time again every attempt at a comeback from a "legendary developer". Also Tim Cain came out of the closet and lost that special pent-up anger he had for having to roleplay a straight person every day.

As for the topic subject, I used to think like that but every time I replay 2 I suffer until I get to New Reno. The early to mid game is such a chore, and the quest design is terrible. It offers better roleplaying but at what cost?

Tim Cain came out after FO1? I never thought about his sexuality much. I kind of assumed he was always out.

 

[almondblight]

Small gameplay improvements aren't enough to make up for the massive retardation of the setting and plot. People love to bash Bethesda for ruining the Fallout world, but Black Isle did that themselves with the talking deathclaw furries, the meme vaults, and a town literally covered in shit. That garbage drags down the good stuff (New Reno, Vault City etc.).

Fallout 2 was decline.

Even New Reno had a lot of stupid stuff. You get to be a fluffer in a porn studio, but then you get poisoned from all the cum you guzzle. Did people play this game when they were 10 and find the jokes funny or something? You have sex with the wife of a crime boss, but it says you weren't good enough in bed so she falls asleep before telling you her secret. But hey, you can pick the sex perk and do a great job and she'll let you know! If Bethesda put any of this garbage in a game, they'd rightfully be pilloried. That video of Megaton that people like to put up is honestly less stupid than a lot of the stuff in Fallout 2.

"They both had pop culture references!" Yeah, one had a few Easter eggs, the other had you literally fighting Pinky and the Brain. To get to a shit bomb, so you can create an explosion that covers the town in shit.

Even the non-idiocy stuff is a step down. People talk about C&C, but a lot of the times people are fine with you helping out their enemies. You can tip off the NCR spy in Vault City, and the Vault City leaders don't care. You can do all but the final job for all the mob families. Take a bunch of jobs from family X to kill family Y, then immediately walk over to family Y and ask for a job and they're happy to have you on board.

And the design of the game is just poor in a lot of places. Combat in Fallout isn't good, but it can be fun in small doses. But adding a bunch of combat dungeons like Fallout 2 does just makes the game tedious.

I honestly doubt people grasp the quality of Fallout 1 when they claim Fallout 2 is of similar quality.

 

[Bigg Boss]

Small gameplay improvements aren't enough to make up for the massive retardation of the setting and plot. People love to bash Bethesda for ruining the Fallout world, but Black Isle did that themselves with the talking deathclaw furries, the meme vaults, and a town literally covered in shit. That garbage drags down the good stuff (New Reno, Vault City etc.).

Fallout 2 was decline.

Even New Reno had a lot of stupid stuff. You get to be a fluffer in a porn studio, but then you get poisoned from all the cum you guzzle. Did people play this game when they were 10 and find the jokes funny or something? You have sex with the wife of a crime boss, but it says you weren't good enough in bed so she falls asleep before telling you her secret. But hey, you can pick the sex perk and do a great job and she'll let you know! If Bethesda put any of this garbage in a game, they'd rightfully be pilloried. That video of Megaton that people like to put up is honestly less stupid than a lot of the stuff in Fallout 2.

"They both had pop culture references!" Yeah, one had a few Easter eggs, the other had you literally fighting Pinky and the Brain. To get to a shit bomb, so you can create an explosion that covers the town in shit.

Even the non-idiocy stuff is a step down. People talk about C&C, but a lot of the times people are fine with you helping out their enemies. You can tip off the NCR spy in Vault City, and the Vault City leaders don't care. You can do all but the final job for all the mob families. Take a bunch of jobs from family X to kill family Y, then immediately walk over to family Y and ask for a job and they're happy to have you on board.

And the design of the game is just poor in a lot of places. Combat in Fallout isn't good, but it can be fun in small doses. But adding a bunch of combat dungeons like Fallout 2 does just makes the game tedious.

I honestly doubt people grasp the quality of Fallout 1 when they claim Fallout 2 is of similar quality.

Uhh actually I was 11 you piece of shit!!!!!! Going back as a big boy the game is not as great for sure. It has more shit to do but at what cost my friends? What cost?

 

[Ryan muller]

Even the non-idiocy stuff is a step down. People talk about C&C, but a lot of the times people are fine with you helping out their enemies. You can tip off the NCR spy in Vault City, and the Vault City leaders don't care. You can do all but the final job for all the mob families. Take a bunch of jobs from family X to kill family Y, then immediately walk over to family Y and ask for a job and they're happy to have you on board.

It doesnt change the fact you cant actually finish all of their questlines and most of the times the progressive backtracking between settlements means you need to have good relationships with them in order to suceed.

In fact i would say its funny to claim that small things the game doesnt recognize suddenly makes for poor CnC because this do happens at every single videogame.

Fallout 1 itself had shit like you defeating the khans and barely getting mentions about it in shady sands like you had done nothing

You can literally find about BoB's canibal work on junkyard and nobody cared about it nor you had the option to send him to the jail,etc...


Theres not that much of pure combat dungeons in fo2, some are in early game but they arent really that much specially compared to something like Arcanum. In fact, combat in 1 will usually be worse due to poor skill balancement, terrible companion A.I and due to how utterly easy most of the game was

 

[Butter]

The tanker fight is worse than all of Fallout 1's combat encounters put together. The wanamingo mine and the rat tunnels also suck. The Khans fight in Fallout 1 is the best encounter from either game.

 

[Jigby]

The best in combat in F1 is getting out of Military Base barehanded after being captured by Harry. With a lvl9 character on Ironman

 

[rusty_shackleford]

fo2>fo1
if you disagree you're wrong idc

a 20 hour long game is basically a tech demo

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I don't understand how the same people who made Fallout 2 can make The Outer Worlds. It's been three years and I'm still stuck on how large the gap of quality is between the two releases.

I'm going to disagree with the prevailing "those devs were never that good" theory. I think it has to do with team size.
The more people working on a game, the more directions it gets pulled in and the less creative control the people in charge have. This applies to any hierarchy, the impact of which can be lessened by having properly disciplined individuals(see e.g., a modern military), something that you won't have in a gamedev studio. Basically, gamedev studios need to start sizing down and hiring a dedicated tard wrangler to keep the devs in check.

The perfect example was Boyarsky's(?) comment on it not being political and a large part of the team rebelled, Roguey would remember the specifics better than me.

 

[Ryan muller]

The Khans fight in Fallout 1 is the best encounter from either game.

Navarro is the best combat encounter and dungeon in both games, altought you arent wrong when it comes to best combat encounter in Fo1.

Navarro has way too many ways to be appeoach and different routes had their own pros and cons.

You can assault from the underground which is easier to acess and then raid from there, but then you would need to get up and it would make your life harder as you would find yourself in the middle of the base alongside every single soldier up there.

You could assault from the east entrance and you would have to deal with both turrets to destroy before you could infiltrate, but it would make it way easier to lure the soldiers and use your companions in battle rather than the underground route.

Or you could go down there, free Xarn and use him at the main base to defeat the soldiers as a meat shield while you deal with the turrets.

Its flexible, full of places to cover and doors to use to your advantage and still has enough challenge to make it interesting. It also balances itself by giving the player acess to Advanced power armor.

 

[thesecret1]

Meh. Fallout 2 is an incredibly unfinished, half-baked game if we're talking vanilla. Unfinished or cut content all around (like Sulik's quest for example). With content restoration mods, it's great, but as vanilla, it really isn't on par with Fallout 1, by the pure virtue of Fallout 1 being in a finished state.