Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Lady Error]

The magic system is indeed the biggest weakness of both Pillars, compared to Infinity Engine games.

I still enjoyed the second one a lot and the first one to some degree (especially White March).

 

[perfectslumbers]

Exploiting the exploitable parts of an rpg system to do crazy shit is one of the most fun parts about any rpg with combat. Pillars of Eternity designed all craziness and exploitability out and then nerfed the final dregs of it out and as such the combat is extraordinarily bland and repetitive. Gets even worse in the second game with the inspiration/affliction system which makes spells even less unique and more homogenous.

 

[purupuru]

I recall in deadfire there are some book events that allow you to use spells for non-combat situations. In particular there is a room that locks you inside with deadly gas (I think) filling in and you either pass some very high athletics checks or cast a single spell that gets you out. Though moments like that kind of makes me more annoyed that we can't do thing like that in actual gameplay.
That said, what are some of the newer games that prominently features out-of-combat magic usage? Owlcat's games are basically buff and smash, Tyranny's magic is combat exclusive like pillars (though you can prebuff a bit). In DOS1 there are telekinesis, teleportation, talking with animals/dead, though I don't recall anything super creative in non-combat quests (played it a long time ago, memories may be faulty). I never played DOS2 but I assume it's more of less the same?

 

[Delterius]

I recall in deadfire there are some book events that allow you to use spells for non-combat situations. In particular there is a room that locks you inside with deadly gas (I think) filling in and you either pass some very high athletics checks or cast a single spell that gets you out. Though moments like that kind of makes me more annoyed that we can't do thing like that in actual gameplay.
That said, what are some of the newer games that prominently features out-of-combat magic usage? Owlcat's games are basically buff and smash, Tyranny's magic is combat exclusive like pillars (though you can prebuff a bit). In DOS1 there are telekinesis, teleportation, talking with animals/dead, though I don't recall anything super creative in non-combat quests (played it a long time ago, memories may be faulty). I never played DOS2 but I assume it's more of less the same?

only thing i remember is casting sleep on some goblins in the middle of dialogue as part of one of the earliest parts of a NwN official module. hordes of the underdark maybe. i have no idea if this sort of thing happens over and over because i couldn't stand NwN for very long.

 

[Grunker]

Sawyer is good at identifying problems, but pretty shit at fixing them.

A lesson oft lost in the debates vs grognards and sawyerists who need it to be either 100% one way or the other way. He even admitted as much himself, it's why he reintroduced hard counters after all

 

[gurugeorge]

I dunno, POE2 seems like an overall upgrade over POE1 to me.

Again, I think the point that's lost on a lot of people is that the gameplay of both games is supposed to be designed from the ground up as computer-based RTwP gameplay, and it works very well for that, it flows really well, in a way that even something like Solasta (the best implementation yet of a translation from tabletop to CRPG) doesn't. The timings, duration and strength of abilities is finely-tuned to encourage proactive RTwP gameplay.

On the other hand, if you want some of the more outre, spectacular types of magic and such, that should be handled by storybook sections where things that can't be shown in a 3-d game engine can be suggested.

 

[Tacgnol]

The magic system is indeed the biggest weakness of both Pillars, compared to Infinity Engine games.

I still enjoyed the second one a lot and the first one to some degree (especially White March).

The second one felt less constrained by "no fun allowed" when it came to character strength.

Many classes felt buffed compared to the first game and the ability empowerment mechanics made combats much more dynamic.

Magic was still pretty boring, though at least you did have empowered spells to play around with.

 

[Grunker]

ability empowerment mechanics made combats much more dynamic.

Empowerment is one of the most baffling and nonsensical mechanics I've ever seen in an RPG (I like both Pillars games).

 

[Tacgnol]

ability empowerment mechanics made combats much more dynamic.

Empowerment is one of the most baffling and nonsensical mechanics I've ever seen in an RPG (I like both Pillars games).

Nonsense mechanic, but it made the abilities and spells a lot more fun to use.

 

[gurugeorge]

ability empowerment mechanics made combats much more dynamic.

Empowerment is one of the most baffling and nonsensical mechanics I've ever seen in an RPG (I like both Pillars games).

Nonsense mechanic, but it made the abilities and spells a lot more fun to use.

It's always the same old thing isn't it? The balance between gameplay fun and flow on the one hand, and simulation on the other. Games would be pretty dry without any element of simulation (basically board games), but too much simulation in a flowing gameplay context and things get too clunky to be fun.

I've always believed that being able to have more refined simulation with lots of elements of reality represented (even if abstracted somewhat) is more the strength of TB gameplay, whereas with something that's designed more to be a quasi-realtime experience (from whatever perspective), you want the simulation to be "satisficed" - you want just enough to make the combat feel somewhat realistic, so you're not being constantly jarred by moments of unrealism; but not so much to make it clunky in realtime play (and some aspects will have to be unrealistic, but hopefully not too many).

I think the design decision POE2 made to have more of the "fun" things come up more often via Empowerment was a good one. It's true that a lot of the "Vancian" stuff (having to wait to use your cool toys) was a hangover from a very specific type of simulationist tabletop setup (and that can work too, if the encounters are tailored around it).

 

[rusty_shackleford]

On the other hand, if you want some of the more outre, spectacular types of magic and such, that should be handled by storybook sections where things that can't be shown in a 3-d game engine can be suggested.

...no?
the problem is that there's zero magic abilities for anything but combat. The idea that these spells can't be represented by a cRPG is nonsense.

How silly, do wizards do nothing but fight? They don't research, travel, cook food, grow plants, etc?

In Sawyer's autistic mind, if you can't represent something perfectly then why bother it seems. So all you get is arrows magic of different colors being shot cast by a archer wizard.


[Edit]
And storybook prompts to do things are terrible design because it's not rewarding the player for thinking of it themselves.
Contrast AoD design to Fallout, most things in Fallout achievable through player exploration/experimenting would just be a selectable dialogue option in AoD.

 

[purupuru]

You know, when I try to thinks of examples of non-combat magic done right in crpgs, Disco Elysium comes to mind. "Visual Calculus" is basically "Patternweave" with fancy visual effects.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Alright boys, times for me to make another attempt to play this shit. I was about to last time i was here but i got side tracked by real life shit and then forgot about it.

Honestly, aside for the various misgivings voiced by many people here, part of the reason why i never made an attempt is that for some reason i'm struggling to learn the system. I don't know why shit just doesn't want to stick into my brain.

With that said, i'm totally going for Path of the Damned (i thought this was like Heart of Fury but it seems it's actually just like Insane in Baldur's Gate, so Path of the Damned it is) and Expert Mode.

Currently, i want to play a Paladin tank, classic sword and board kinda deal. From what i've been able to learn so far, my best bet is to just forget about dps (at least stat and skill wise, equipment can do the rest) and focus on making this character unkillable. Supposedly, Fighters are better at grabbing enemies but i suppose i can use the Fighter companion to tank trash while my Pally face spanks the harder mobs, assuming two tanks isn't overkill.

Problem: the first build i came up with required me to use Perception as a dumb stat, and from what i gather that's a BAD thing as far the dialog goes. For a game that's all about BALANCE and making all choices pointless and redudant i find this a bit incongrous (yeah i know, the whole balance thing is a myth there's definitely shit that's way better than some other shit). There's also the fact Paladins get bonuses or penalties depending on how they behave in the game, which at least on paper actually sounds pretty cool, except i wonder how that works if you make a "dumb" character that only gets by with bullying people.

Not that i want to make a dumb character on purpose. I'm going for typical Pally. High wisdom, strong willed, stoic, physically strong, not particularly bookish or nimble.

 

[Lyric Suite]

It is not perfect, but Pillars 1 + expansion is a good rpg and still better than that overrated garbage "Rpg of the decade" Dinivity 2, which people gave 10\10 only because you can pet a cat or talk with rabbits

Knowing the Codex, i'm sure it was because the game is turn based.

 

[Ninjerk]

Alright boys, times for me to make another attempt to play this shit. I was about to last time i was here but i got side tracked by real life shit and then forgot about it.

Honestly, aside for the various misgivings voiced by many people here, part of the reason why i never made an attempt is that for some reason i'm struggling to learn the system. I don't know why shit just doesn't want to stick into my brain.

With that said, i'm totally going for Path of the Damned (i thought this was like Heart of Fury but it seems it's actually just like Insane in Baldur's Gate, so Path of the Damned it is) and Expert Mode.

Currently, i want to play a Paladin tank, classic sword and board kinda deal. From what i've been able to learn so far, my best bet is to just forget about dps (at least stat and skill wise, equipment can do the rest) and focus on making this character unkillable. Supposedly, Fighters are better at grabbing enemies but i suppose i can use the Fighter companion to tank trash while my Pally face spanks the harder mobs, assuming two tanks isn't overkill.

Problem: the first build i came up with required me to use Perception as a dumb stat, and from what i gather that's a BAD thing as far the dialog goes. For a game that's all about BALANCE and making all choices pointless and redudant i find this a bit incongrous (yeah i know, the whole balance thing is a myth there's definitely shit that's way better than some other shit). There's also the fact Paladins get bonuses or penalties depending on how they behave in the game, which at least on paper actually sounds pretty cool, except i wonder how that works if you make a "dumb" character that only gets by with bullying people.

Not that i want to make a dumb character on purpose. I'm going for typical Pally. High wisdom, strong willed, stoic, physically strong, not particularly bookish or nimble.

It's been basically since release since I played, but there is that option to have your defensive stats bolstered by correctly roleplaying your order and to get the utmost highest defenses I believe you need to do this. The best shield in the game for a paladin, as far as I was aware, is the Outworn Buckler that you can purchase from someone very early in the game (Act I, I think). You really want to find Rymgard's Mantle (not sure about the spelling of the name) as it will partially trivialize the ghosts (you'll only be limited by your largest pool of HP, I forget what fucking retarded thing it's called b/c Sawyer).

 

[Ninjerk]

Lyric Suite that butthurt moron Vanya Pope amole made a lot of videos about builds on YT. EDIT: *Nerdcommando I think is his YT name

 

[rusty_shackleford]

just pick whatever sounds appealing and stop ruining the game for yourself before you even begin playing

and as a bonus, you're about to start reading my posts in a different voice in your head

 

[Delterius]

I don't think low Perception is that bad for dialogue. I remember Resolve being the big dialogue unlocker in PoE1. That said, you don't really need to dumpstat anything even on PotD.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Outworn Buckler

Le wat?

Where's muh bad ass giant shield brah.

 

[Lady Error]

I like playing a Ranger due to ranged attacks and a bonus tank in the form of your animal (wolf or bear are best).

 

[Ninjerk]

Outworn Buckler

Le wat?

Where's muh bad ass giant shield brah.

I don't remember if the different shield sizes contribute to DR or what, but the Outworn Buckler gives +5 to all passive defenses which is basically never worth not stacking (whereas IIRC DR has limitations on its usefulness somehow). On PotD, IIRC, a lot of negative status effects will lower passive defenses in addition to whatever passive defense stat they use to calculate whether they hit, so other negative statuses that target the other passive d stats will hit more easily--basically cascading defense failure. It all sounds more interesting than it actually is.

 

[Lyric Suite]

just pick whatever sounds appealing

That's exactly what i'm doing but it doesn't mean i have to go blind. What's the point of character building if you just gonna pick shit without having the slighest clue why you should?

Especially for a game like this where everything is just whatever and you cannot really rely on what the description says to get an idea of what something actually does (to wit, might helping with spells as opposed to being only about beating people in the head with heavy objects, as you would assume at first).

 

[rusty_shackleford]

just pick whatever sounds appealing

That's exactly what i'm doing but it doesn't mean i have to go blind. What's the point of character building if you just gonna pick shit without having the slighest clue why you should?

That's how your parents raised you and you turned out.... Well, maybe you have a point.

 

[Lyric Suite]

BTW, this isn't like Baldur's Gate where i have to take a rogue, right?

I'm looking at the list of companions and i'll be definitely taking the Avellone ones, the both of them. The Figther dude sounds interesting. Aloh is giving me Sand vibes but probably it's just the portrait that makes me think of that. The rest is whatever until i get a chance to see what they are.

Definitely avoiding that black wombyn Paladin. Fuck you Sawyer.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Nah, you can use Kana for traps and chests, he's in the first chapter.