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CD Projekt's Cyberpunk 2077 Update 2.0 + Phantom Liberty Expansion Thread

Latelistener

Arcane
Joined
May 25, 2016
Messages
2,624
Randy said something similar, and I accept PREVIOUS games did it differently, HOWEVER, we're now talking RTX. This game is pushing RTX/DLSS.. it's not the first game to do this but the FACT of the matter is that EVERY other game that has pushed RTX has been all about the reflection, that's literally been the party line since it was introduced.. "Look 'at dem reflections".. and for this game to also push RTX but not use the one feature it exists to produce is just fucking outrageous .
The game needs at least one full year of additional development and has so many problems no wonder RTX is fucked up.

They probably had several people working on this, most of whom do not work there anymore.

Just imagine, 500 people under this management. This project was a nightmare.
 
Joined
Jan 15, 2021
Messages
76
Randy said something similar, and I accept PREVIOUS games did it differently, HOWEVER, we're now talking RTX. This game is pushing RTX/DLSS.. it's not the first game to do this but the FACT of the matter is that EVERY other game that has pushed RTX has been all about the reflection, that's literally been the party line since it was introduced.. "Look 'at dem reflections".. and for this game to also push RTX but not use the one feature it exists to produce is just fucking outrageous .
The game needs at least one full year of additional development and has so many problems no wonder RTX is fucked up.

They probably had several people working on this, most of whom do not work there anymore.

Just imagine, 500 people under this management. This project was a nightmare.

...and I would say that only one year is optimistic, in the extreme. I would say that for something of this scale we definitely needed the full eight years, not 4 years of dicking around, a restart, two further years of dicking around and another restart/reimagining.

Yes, the entire production history of this game was a travesty.
 

typical user

Arbiter
Joined
Nov 30, 2015
Messages
957
Music and sounds are great in general but sound design in this game sucks balls deep:
  • You have ambient score fighting with killer tracks on the radio all the time, how about some silence instead of music blasting from speakers on every street corner? Dark Souls comes to mind how they use silence as ambience itself. Don't need to listen to the same Tyger Claws theme everytime I am close to some random gonks on the street.
  • The city itself is pretty quiet, I mean there is no ambient sound of traffic in the distance, only sounds of AVs or jets close-by, in GTA V you can hear motorbikes in the distance and general "city noise". Night City is surprisingly quiet compared to Los Santos. Try walking in the forest in Witcher 3 with disabled music. That's the sort of atmosphere you are missing while walking the streets in Cyberpunk.
  • The game is missing tons of details, for example your character makes a noise while opening car's door, but your companion is dead-silent in almost every action. Other actions like companion footsteps or hiding dead bodies in containers is so damn loud. Also you would expect characters to shout in clubs and nightbars. When you speak with Claire or Mateo it's like chit-chat next to a coffee machine in an office instead of a club with loud music. The game doesn't need to be loud as jet-engines but put some effort in those locations. Characters in RDR2 are screaming at each other if you are far while riding on your horse. In GTA V you get an audio-filter when you are far from other character to simulate talking through comms. In CP2077 some characters have no such filter when holding a convo' on a phone. Regina Jones in one quest sounds like she is speaking through a phone and in the next quest outside Watson like she is standing next to you.
  • It's more on AI but tied to sound design too. Enemies do not react to sounds while you are sneaking. If you force open shutters or doors close-by you would expect them to be alarmed. When you jump you also make no noise in their perspective etc.
  • Also have you noticed there is no reverb or muffled sounds when discharging a weapon in small rooms or huge hallways? If there is then those situations are rare. Your gun makes the same sound in-doors and outside buildings. Same with grenades thrown under water.
  • This last one is a personal preference but Royce and Adam Smasher are spamming their combat bark-lines every 2 seconds.

All those issues show again the game was rushed.
 
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Haplo

Prophet
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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Well, I find it interesting that the enemies also are not alarmed by blowing their cameras out.
I can understand hacking the camera and making it "Friendly". But destroying it or even turning it off? Shouldn't someone notice?
 

Justicar

Dead game
Glory to Ukraine
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Afghanistan
  • It's more on AI but tied to sound design too. Enemies do not react to sounds while you are sneaking. If you force open shutters or doors close-by you would expect them to be alarmed. When you jump you also make no noise in their perspective etc.
Its inconsistent sometimes ai will react when you knock shit over and make noise sometimes they wont care, example:

 

Yosharian

Arcane
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Grand Chien
Lmao they didn't even have time to make the NPCs mouths' move when they speak, you think they are gonna bother with any of this in-depth sound design

And the AI is almost non-existent in this game just like every other triple A game released in the last 5-10 years, hardly surprising they don't notice stuff like that
 

Justicar

Dead game
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Lmao they didn't even have time to make the NPCs mouths' move when they speak,
That's 100% a bug of their lip syncing system can sometimes happen in main missions on ps4 character will speak but their mouths will stay shut on pc I saw it happen only to random pedestrians most of the time they will have animation but sometimes it glitches out and the mouths stay shut.
 

typical user

Arbiter
Joined
Nov 30, 2015
Messages
957
  • It's more on AI but tied to sound design too. Enemies do not react to sounds while you are sneaking. If you force open shutters or doors close-by you would expect them to be alarmed. When you jump you also make no noise in their perspective etc.
Its inconsistent sometimes ai will react when you knock shit over and make noise sometimes they wont care, example:



That's because those boxes can be hacked. Enemies have to react to them when they are standing close or you would have another example of braindead AI.

Also this video (watch from timestamp) has been posted everywhere but it actually made me realize the sound design is half-baked, before I didn't notice those issues:
 

Yosharian

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
10,438
Location
Grand Chien
Lmao they didn't even have time to make the NPCs mouths' move when they speak,
That's 100% a bug of their lip syncing system can sometimes happen in main missions on ps4 character will speak but their mouths will stay shut on pc I saw it happen only to random pedestrians most of the time they will have animation but sometimes it glitches out and the mouths stay shut.
Yes and it illustrates how little time was spent bugfixing and polishing, it shows that the time before launch was spent desperately getting major mechanics & game systems in place, with no time for little details like this
 

Bliblablubb

Arcane
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Messages
2,925
Location
Copium Den
I thought it was common knowledge that reflections don't exist.
For something that does not exist it sure does hog a lot of GPU power. Turning it off gave me quiet a boost, all it removed was.... well, the floor does not look wet all the time anymore I guess? :hahano:
 

Danikas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2017
Messages
1,605
Original Johnny concept art.

lea-leonowicz-johnny-silverhand-03.jpg

lea-leonowicz-johnny-silverhand-02.jpg


Anyway remember that random reddit "leak" from "game developer"

"Our original Johnny was heavily inspired by David Hayter's Solid Snake from the first MGS and believe it or not "

Could there be some truth to that?
 

Yosharian

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
10,438
Location
Grand Chien
It would have been so much better if they went with an unknown actor for Silverhand, I do have a soft spot for Keanu but he just doesn't add much to this character
 

Quillon

Arcane
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Messages
5,296
Not much different than Keanu Silverhand, tho why does he have black hair if its original concept/before keanu?
 

Pegultagol

Erudite
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Messages
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General Gaming
If RDR2 is to be compared on its linearity of the missions and how restrictive its storytelling is, consider this:

I admit that RDR2's plot is pretty nonsensical and inexplicable with character decisions made for you at every turn making you feel completely helpless, exasperated, and mired in some creep toward inevitable and cursed fate. The narrative of how Dutch goes about bumbling around with his merry band of ignorant fools is really the worst part of the game.

However, many of your actions via the free character of Arthur Morgan are reflected in good/bad honor system that leads to different cutscenes, dialogues, items, and perks, not to mention the ultimate outcome in the life of the player character. It's a small difference in the big scheme of absurdity, but I feel it integrates quite naturally and there are umpteenth opportunities to influence it in either direction.

Furthermore you can dress your character however you want, with many options in beard and hair styles, not to mention crafting clothes that actually derive from the materials you hunt for and gather. The clothing sets offer small bonuses but they're not significantly tied to any gameplay contrivance and even serves immersive function to protect you from the elements. The weapons can be upgraded by parts and fittings, has various types of bullets that one can also craft, and there are challenges based on their skillful usage. It' just a small example of many of the choices at your disposal that might not affect the world per se, but does affect your representation interacting at all times in the constantly streaming, dynamic open world. The thing is, these type of facetious choices and light survival elements are the easiest things to implement in this type of game.

I feel CP2077 offers reactivity more contained in a mission, every mission handling pathways on which the player decision can influence the outcome. This is labor intensive, as the choices are heavily dialogue based and run on specific scripts and actions that only exist in one mission. The first few missions are especially fine examples, which offer many options that cater to player volition leading to diverse and compelling outcomes. But the majority of content exists in strait jacket narrative and a bubble of exclusivity not influencing other content in meaningful way. And I think the overall direction of story suffers from this as character development or relationship, let alone the world at large, feel particularly disjointed and existing in its own dimension. At least in the very end your ongoing relationship with Silverhand nets you another option to tackle the ending, but even then, supposedly hidden, as it's a secret! Why do they hide one single outcome toward which the player had contributed at many significant parts of the story?

Another glaring miss from this game that I felt was missed opportunity was the backdrop of ongoing Night City mayoral election. Even after some point in the game the winner was eventually declared on newscasts, I kept getting gigs and dialogs that still assumed the race was on and designed around sabotage or espionage for one candidate or the other. If CDPR was able to focus on a little reactivity of its proceedings and tie the loose ends this side story would've been a very nice chance to boost immersion and provide some cool atmosphere of a dynamic world. But done poorly, it produced a worse effect than would have if the missions were completely unrelated.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
If RDR2 is to be compared on its linearity of the missions and how restrictive its storytelling is, consider this:

I admit that RDR2's plot is pretty nonsensical and inexplicable with character decisions made for you at every turn making you feel completely helpless, exasperated, and mired in some creep toward inevitable and cursed fate. The narrative of how Dutch goes about bumbling around with his merry band of ignorant fools is really the worst part of the game.

However, many of your actions via the free character of Arthur Morgan are reflected in good/bad honor system that leads to different cutscenes, dialogues, items, and perks, not to mention the ultimate outcome in the life of the player character. It's a small difference in the big scheme of absurdity, but I feel it integrates quite naturally and there are umpteenth opportunities to influence it in either direction.

Furthermore you can dress your character however you want, with many options in beard and hair styles, not to mention crafting clothes that actually derive from the materials you hunt for and gather. The clothing sets offer small bonuses but they're not significantly tied to any gameplay contrivance and even serves immersive function to protect you from the elements. The weapons can be upgraded by parts and fittings, has various types of bullets that one can also craft, and there are challenges based on their skillful usage. It' just a small example of many of the choices at your disposal that might not affect the world per se, but does affect your representation interacting at all times in the constantly streaming, dynamic open world. The thing is, these type of facetious choices and light survival elements are the easiest things to implement in this type of game.

I feel CP2077 offers reactivity more contained in a mission, every mission handling pathways on which the player decision can influence the outcome. This is labor intensive, as the choices are heavily dialogue based and run on specific scripts and actions that only exist in one mission. The first few missions are especially fine examples, which offer many options that cater to player volition leading to diverse and compelling outcomes. But the majority of content exists in strait jacket narrative and a bubble of exclusivity not influencing other content in meaningful way. And I think the overall direction of story suffers from this as character development or relationship, let alone the world at large, feel particularly disjointed and existing in its own dimension. At least in the very end your ongoing relationship with Silverhand nets you another option to tackle the ending, but even then, supposedly hidden, as it's a secret! Why do they hide one single outcome toward which the player had contributed at many significant parts of the story?

Another glaring miss from this game that I felt was missed opportunity was the backdrop of ongoing Night City mayoral election. Even after some point in the game the winner was eventually declared on newscasts, I kept getting gigs and dialogs that still assumed the race was on and designed around sabotage or espionage for one candidate or the other. If CDPR was able to focus on a little reactivity of its proceedings and tie the loose ends this side story would've been a very nice chance to boost immersion and provide some cool atmosphere of a dynamic world. But done poorly, it produced a worse effect than would have if the missions were completely unrelated.
The problem is that CDPR should have been able to implement reactivity at both the micro and macro level because it was supposed to be an RPG. Hell, this is one of the areas that Witcher 3 excelled in -- I've played the game a few times through now and a lot of quests interact with each other(including temporally) and shape the overall narrative.
RDR2 never set out to create an RPG. They made a really good cowboy simulator with a lot of world interactions/reactivity.
 

Zeriel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,967
If RDR2 is to be compared on its linearity of the missions and how restrictive its storytelling is, consider this:

I admit that RDR2's plot is pretty nonsensical and inexplicable with character decisions made for you at every turn making you feel completely helpless, exasperated, and mired in some creep toward inevitable and cursed fate. The narrative of how Dutch goes about bumbling around with his merry band of ignorant fools is really the worst part of the game.

However, many of your actions via the free character of Arthur Morgan are reflected in good/bad honor system that leads to different cutscenes, dialogues, items, and perks, not to mention the ultimate outcome in the life of the player character. It's a small difference in the big scheme of absurdity, but I feel it integrates quite naturally and there are umpteenth opportunities to influence it in either direction.

Furthermore you can dress your character however you want, with many options in beard and hair styles, not to mention crafting clothes that actually derive from the materials you hunt for and gather. The clothing sets offer small bonuses but they're not significantly tied to any gameplay contrivance and even serves immersive function to protect you from the elements. The weapons can be upgraded by parts and fittings, has various types of bullets that one can also craft, and there are challenges based on their skillful usage. It' just a small example of many of the choices at your disposal that might not affect the world per se, but does affect your representation interacting at all times in the constantly streaming, dynamic open world. The thing is, these type of facetious choices and light survival elements are the easiest things to implement in this type of game.

I feel CP2077 offers reactivity more contained in a mission, every mission handling pathways on which the player decision can influence the outcome. This is labor intensive, as the choices are heavily dialogue based and run on specific scripts and actions that only exist in one mission. The first few missions are especially fine examples, which offer many options that cater to player volition leading to diverse and compelling outcomes. But the majority of content exists in strait jacket narrative and a bubble of exclusivity not influencing other content in meaningful way. And I think the overall direction of story suffers from this as character development or relationship, let alone the world at large, feel particularly disjointed and existing in its own dimension. At least in the very end your ongoing relationship with Silverhand nets you another option to tackle the ending, but even then, supposedly hidden, as it's a secret! Why do they hide one single outcome toward which the player had contributed at many significant parts of the story?

Another glaring miss from this game that I felt was missed opportunity was the backdrop of ongoing Night City mayoral election. Even after some point in the game the winner was eventually declared on newscasts, I kept getting gigs and dialogs that still assumed the race was on and designed around sabotage or espionage for one candidate or the other. If CDPR was able to focus on a little reactivity of its proceedings and tie the loose ends this side story would've been a very nice chance to boost immersion and provide some cool atmosphere of a dynamic world. But done poorly, it produced a worse effect than would have if the missions were completely unrelated.
The problem is that CDPR should have been able to implement reactivity at both the micro and macro level because it was supposed to be an RPG. Hell, this is one of the areas that Witcher 3 excelled in -- I've played the game a few times through now and a lot of quests interact with each other(including temporally) and shape the overall narrative.
RDR2 never set out to create an RPG. They made a really good cowboy simulator with a lot of world interactions/reactivity.

But they changed the genre of the game from RPG in the twitter profile, man! C'mon, that fixes everything!
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Lmao they didn't even have time to make the NPCs mouths' move when they speak, you think they are gonna bother with any of this in-depth sound design

And the AI is almost non-existent in this game just like every other triple A game released in the last 5-10 years, hardly surprising they don't notice stuff like that
Speaking of AI, I found Asscreed Origins to have surprisingly good AI - climbing ladders, raising alarms, carrying bodies of dead comrades, quest NPCs can be abandoned in the middle of an escort mission by deactivating the quest and they will stop and wait for the player to return.

They still behave as robots or get stuck climbing up and down ladders as they are calculating from what distance to fight, but all of the above is functionality that works.
 

Gargaune

Arcane
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,625
It's not a bug though.. yes, not the 'biggest' issue, but at this point it's just more fuel for the fire.
Only because you're already pissed off at the game, otherwise it's not really indicative of anything if it's a mismatched prebaked reflection, stuff like this can slip through quality control even in productions with rock-solid development and testing processes. Obviously, that's not Cyberpunk's case, but this issue isn't an instance of "they couldn't even get that right", shit like this happens because it's so easy to miss in QA.

2070s. Yeah, tried that, didn't fix anything... I 'think' is because I'm using the Win7 version and I 'think' it's because some their rtx/dlss support comes from the Geforce Experience application (people also report installing this works), and if I'm unwilling to use an OS that spies on me, I'm certainly never going to use a programme that exists only for stream purposes and data collection.
I also have the 2070 and I don't install GeForce Experience, so it's not that, but it could be the OS. DirectX 12 on Windows 7 is, if I recall correctly, an "exceptional" per-game distribution and if that's the culprit, I don't know what to suggest. You could ask on nVidia's forums, but I wouldn't get my hopes up for a solution.
 
Joined
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Messages
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I also have the 2070 and I don't install GeForce Experience, so it's not that, but it could be the OS. DirectX 12 on Windows 7 is, if I recall correctly, an "exceptional" per-game distribution and if that's the culprit, I don't know what to suggest. You could ask on nVidia's forums, but I wouldn't get my hopes up for a solution.

It doesn't matter, my experience wouldn't be any better with a few extra shinies and I have no intention of playing the game ever again so there's no point in seeking a solution. Every other game I have works and that's fine by me.
 

Wesp5

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
1,947
I believe also Half Life 2 and all its Source engine derivatives use prebaked cubic maps for a lot of normal lighting stuff and the editor can generate them automatically.

I can confirm that and the results can be similar to the one in the screenshot. The cube maps are calculated before dynamic entities are added, so when you look at mirrors in the museum map of Bloodlines, the doors to the stalls in the rest room are missing in the reflection. What I think is even worse in that CP screenshot though is the chair with the pink bottom. It has no reflection or shadow and looks like it is floating! I can't believe this is supposed to be with raytracing on...
 

Twiglard

Poland Stronk
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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
I kinda like River and fam but

Just so you know, we don't use zoomer words around here. Unless it's to express disgust at zoomer/millenial culture and the decline of Western civilization.

What I think is even worse in that CP screenshot though is the chair with the pink bottom. It has no reflection or shadow and looks like it is floating! I can't believe this is supposed to be with raytracing on...

That doorway is emitting an area light, that's why.

It's not with raytacing on. Area lights work fine with shadows and reflections are realtime. The user might've turned on only the basic RTX and left the important bits off.
 
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