From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Child of Malkav]

1. You don't know anything about the expansion.

Look at the picture, seems we're going into the dream lands or whatever they're called. Fits with the dream related cut content of a quest and making a dream potion. You see Miquella riding a horse, probably Torrent. Miquella being present means boos fight: either him or Godwyn or both at the same time or consecutively.
Could also add a rematch against Mohg or Malenia (their dream versions as Miquella remembers them or something), probably Malenia since she was a fan "favorite". I expect this DLC to be all kinds of bad.
The theme of the DLC will also probably deal with the deathblight since the erdtree in the distance looks dead and the field Miquella rides through has those ghostly symbols, the same appearance as the ghosts in the Mountaintop of the Giants.

2. It being about Godwynn or Miquella or whatever else doesn't mean it will be inherently bad/good/boring/interesting.

Hopium is copium.

 

[Skinwalker]

I've hit a rock wall with the Beast Clergyman. I reached the second phase three out of 12 times. Time to do all side stuff that I know of. Grind, grind, grind.

Really? Beast Clergyman was laughably easy, it's the second phase (Deathbeast Metalclaw or whatever his name is) that almost had me screaming and spitting venom at the screen because of how twitchy and bullshit it was, with lazers and suspended gravity and jumping around in the air, and literally everything I hate about a soulsgame bossfight.

 

[Abu Antar]

I've hit a rock wall with the Beast Clergyman. I reached the second phase three out of 12 times. Time to do all side stuff that I know of. Grind, grind, grind.

Really? Beast Clergyman was laughably easy, it's the second phase (Deathbeast Metalclaw or whatever his name is) that almost had me screaming and spitting venom at the screen because of how twitchy and bullshit it was, with lazers and suspended gravity and jumping around in the air, and literally everything I hate about a soulsgame bossfight.

It was the second form that gave me the most problems.

 

[proxon]

What worked best for me was being defensive in first phase and aggressive in second. The longer the second phase lasts the higher chance you get fucked.

 

[Child of Malkav]

2nd phase was easiest for me. 1st phase is bullshit incarnate.

 

[Abu Antar]

Game is done. I just grognarded my way through the game. Leveled up to level 200.

 

[thesheeep]

I really find these discussions about which boss (or which boss phase) is easy or hard very fascinating.

At first I thought it was mostly down to builds, or down to players gitting gud or not.
However, multiple players who all have played through the game (so you can assume at least some minimal amount of skill) using almost identical builds will still give completely different answers about what was easy/hard for them.

IMO a sign of a good game if experiences can be so varied even within very restricted parameters.

 

[9ted6]

The basic impression i got is that Miyazaki isn't a deep writer and isn't even trying to be. He is a "gaming" writer for a lack of a better word. What he writes is intended purely to entertain or fascinate the player there's probably not a whole lot that is actually coherent in the "lore".

I don't know whether to attribute it to Miyazaki or not, but there is a lot more coherent lore behind things than one might expect. Not even hinted at, just outright unavailable to the player- things like internal names of enemies, or features of faces hidden underneath helmets that indicate a soldier is part of this faction or that. Yeah, you can grasp at straws and go too far with this stuff, but for example the rune bears have the same sort of eyes as the player attains when using dragon hearts, and dropped dragon hearts during the network test. That implies there was some sort of actual intention there, because they could have just as easily not given them special eyes which nobody will ever notice in a real playthrough. There's plenty of minor detail stuff like that which implies they thought about the background of the world and then implemented the logical conclusions of that background, rather than just slapdashing everything together without concern for major plotholes. The ants will attack their riders if dismounted, for example, indicating some sort of mind control. The gargoyles are actually two flesh bodies melded together, with a seam running all the way from the face to the legs. The cleanrot knights have insectile wings, implying a relation to the wingless pest knights that are also found in the rot infested areas.

I don't think they thought about it too much though, and a lot of it is there just to be weird, surreal, or fantastical for the aesthetics of it, not for any deeper lore meaning. Why are there living mushrooms in DS1? Because it's fantasy. Frampt and Kaathe look like sockpuppets as a tribute to Miyazaki's grandma, not because of a deep design choice. Things like that. Some of it is pretty clever and consistent though, while other stuff can be pretentiously vague or too weird.

 

[Skinwalker]

In summary, azns are weird.

 

[Abu Antar]

For me, it's more that I have very poor eye sight, and issues with depth of field. To be honest, I shouldn't even be playing these games, based on that alone.

Anyway, my ratings are:

Demon's Souls (probably not the best objectively, but I laughed at launch, but got it for cheap a year later, and loved it. Crow was eaten.)
Dark Souls
Elden Ring
Bloodborne

I haven't played DS2, DS3, or Sekiro, and I won't go back to them.

Demon's is probably my favorite due to its "accessibility". I always had 20ish grasses on me. I went in with 30 for the final boss. In Elden Ring, I had 14 for the first form of the final fight, and 9 for the second phase (on my successful run). Second phase was actually much easier.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

The basic impression i got is that Miyazaki isn't a deep writer and isn't even trying to be. He is a "gaming" writer for a lack of a better word. What he writes is intended purely to entertain or fascinate the player there's probably not a whole lot that is actually coherent in the "lore".

I don't know whether to attribute it to Miyazaki or not, but there is a lot more coherent lore behind things than one might expect. Not even hinted at, just outright unavailable to the player- things like internal names of enemies, or features of faces hidden underneath helmets that indicate a soldier is part of this faction or that. Yeah, you can grasp at straws and go too far with this stuff, but for example the rune bears have the same sort of eyes as the player attains when using dragon hearts, and dropped dragon hearts during the network test. That implies there was some sort of actual intention there, because they could have just as easily not given them special eyes which nobody will ever notice in a real playthrough. There's plenty of minor detail stuff like that which implies they thought about the background of the world and then implemented the logical conclusions of that background, rather than just slapdashing everything together without concern for major plotholes. The ants will attack their riders if dismounted, for example, indicating some sort of mind control. The gargoyles are actually two flesh bodies melded together, with a seam running all the way from the face to the legs. The cleanrot knights have insectile wings, implying a relation to the wingless pest knights that are also found in the rot infested areas.

I don't think they thought about it too much though, and a lot of it is there just to be weird, surreal, or fantastical for the aesthetics of it, not for any deeper lore meaning. Why are there living mushrooms in DS1? Because it's fantasy. Frampt and Kaathe look like sockpuppets as a tribute to Miyazaki's grandma, not because of a deep design choice. Things like that. Some of it is pretty clever and consistent though, while other stuff can be pretentiously vague or too weird.

You gotta remember that when japanese make western looking fantasy they are lacking the historical context westerners have of the european middle ages. It's not just about reading books, it's about the whole shared experience. It's not an exaggeration to claim that their brand of western fantasy is a mix of Disney, D&D and LOTR. So it makes sense they introduce weird details like those that raise eyebrows for western people, but for them it's just part of the toybox.

Also it's not deep, just a fantasy setting, not a thing where you'd look some sort of heritage like Tolkien did. Like Evangelion. The judeochristian shit is there because it looks cool, and that's it.

 

[9ted6]

The basic impression i got is that Miyazaki isn't a deep writer and isn't even trying to be. He is a "gaming" writer for a lack of a better word. What he writes is intended purely to entertain or fascinate the player there's probably not a whole lot that is actually coherent in the "lore".

I don't know whether to attribute it to Miyazaki or not, but there is a lot more coherent lore behind things than one might expect. Not even hinted at, just outright unavailable to the player- things like internal names of enemies, or features of faces hidden underneath helmets that indicate a soldier is part of this faction or that. Yeah, you can grasp at straws and go too far with this stuff, but for example the rune bears have the same sort of eyes as the player attains when using dragon hearts, and dropped dragon hearts during the network test. That implies there was some sort of actual intention there, because they could have just as easily not given them special eyes which nobody will ever notice in a real playthrough. There's plenty of minor detail stuff like that which implies they thought about the background of the world and then implemented the logical conclusions of that background, rather than just slapdashing everything together without concern for major plotholes. The ants will attack their riders if dismounted, for example, indicating some sort of mind control. The gargoyles are actually two flesh bodies melded together, with a seam running all the way from the face to the legs. The cleanrot knights have insectile wings, implying a relation to the wingless pest knights that are also found in the rot infested areas.

I don't think they thought about it too much though, and a lot of it is there just to be weird, surreal, or fantastical for the aesthetics of it, not for any deeper lore meaning. Why are there living mushrooms in DS1? Because it's fantasy. Frampt and Kaathe look like sockpuppets as a tribute to Miyazaki's grandma, not because of a deep design choice. Things like that. Some of it is pretty clever and consistent though, while other stuff can be pretentiously vague or too weird.

You gotta remember that when japanese make western looking fantasy they are lacking the historical context westerners have of the european middle ages. It's not just about reading books, it's about the whole shared experience. It's not an exaggeration to claim that their brand of western fantasy is a mix of Disney, D&D and LOTR. So it makes sense they introduce weird details like those that raise eyebrows for western people, but for them it's just part of the toybox.

Also it's not deep, just a fantasy setting, not a thing where you'd look some sort of heritage like Tolkien did. Like Evangelion. The judeochristian shit is there because it looks cool, and that's it.

It's interesting at least to see how they handle a fantasy setting that's almost exclusively West European with barely any Eastern influence. I felt like Souls was an autotranslated fantasy where the parts all look similar, but something still feels inconsistent or foreign from a Western perspective. That fits if you consider Miyazaki's commentary about him reading fantasy books in English as a kid, not understanding the majority of it and mainly inferring the stories from pictures and illustrations.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Dark Souls's lore felt more like it was based on an eastern religion than anything European.

 

[Grunker]

Dark Souls's lore felt more like it was based on an eastern religion than anything European.

The central powers of the world and the civil war between the orders are literally based on symbolism and theological splits leading to conflict in the orthodoxy of the russian church in the 1700s (the schism). This inspiration seems less hidden, more direct, than most shit I encountered in DS1. It smells like a GRRM-thing.

Seems you of all Codexers would be someone to figure that particular parallel out

I don't think they thought about it too much though, and a lot of it is there just to be weird, surreal, or fantastical for the aesthetics of it, not for any deeper lore meaning.

While I agree it's tempting to conclude that autistic fanboys who find connections between every detail are retards grasping at what is probably just coincidence straws or developer decisions made on a whim, someone like Miyazaki seems exactly like the kind of autistic writer who does make sure attention is paid to every detail, seeing how many connections are definitely there. So I'm not so sure

 

[biffthestiff]

I loved DS1 and enjoyed DS2, but after watching about an hour of Elden Ring videos, and having played it for 30 minutes at a friend's, I removed it from my wishlist. Large open-world games just seem so soulless to me, and designed around length rather than quality, and Elden Ring did nothing to shake off this stereotype. Probably not the right thread to state this, but idk.

 

[Grunker]

procrastinator is the "citation needed" with regards to the Russian schism? Just read up on it and it should be obvious that Elden Ring is directly inspired by the conflict. It's literally an internal religious conflict between people of the same faith, one group using the symbol of a hand with two outstretched fingers and one group using the symbol of a hand with three outstretched fingers. The central theological difference between the factions is even essentially about whether there should be one central source for the word of God (*the* bible as opposed to whatever weird version of the bible a local community would use) interpreted by the clergy governed by a strict authority, or many different versions, interpreted by the individual with clergy as assistance and community guidance.

 

[Grunker]

(With regards to that last part, recall that the defining difference between the Two-Fingers and Three-Fingers in Elden Ring is that the former has finger-readers and is clearly viewed as the primary source for the divination of the Greater Will, while the latter is *explicitly* "readerless")

 

[Perkel]

I really find these discussions about which boss (or which boss phase) is easy or hard very fascinating.

At first I thought it was mostly down to builds, or down to players gitting gud or not.
However, multiple players who all have played through the game (so you can assume at least some minimal amount of skill) using almost identical builds will still give completely different answers about what was easy/hard for them.

IMO a sign of a good game if experiences can be so varied even within very restricted parameters.

Souls intricate combat depends a lot on luck. It is mostly down to how little bosses have health and how short those battles are. If you just throw yourself at the boss 10-20 times you will more or less win regardless of skill.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

It's too visceral to be a dream.

That's why it's actually a nightmare

 

[Grampy_Bone]

If you just throw yourself at the boss 10-20 times you will more or less win regardless of skill.

This is on the same level as people who say "Dark Souls isn't hard, you just memorize every enemy location and boss attack and then you win."

 

[Damned Registrations]

If you just throw yourself at the boss 10-20 times you will more or less win regardless of skill.

This is on the same level as people who say "Dark Souls isn't hard, you just memorize every enemy location and boss attack and then you win."

That's not wrong though. Especially at this point, pretty much all the dificulty in these games revolves around enemies having janky nonsense attacks that punish you for reacting in an intuitive way. It's just a bunch of 'Gotcha!' moments. Compare the way things fight in Elden Ring with the way they fight in Monster Hunter- even though both games have low health totals for the player, stamina systems, and punishing scenarios like getting stunlocked to death or caught in meaties you can't roll out of, Monster Hunter has a much better difficulty curve because it doesn't do retarded shit like launch a flying tackle that pauses for 14 frames once it gets within 4 feet of the player to bait out a dodge.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

If you just throw yourself at the boss 10-20 times you will more or less win regardless of skill.

This is on the same level as people who say "Dark Souls isn't hard, you just memorize every enemy location and boss attack and then you win."

That's not wrong though. Especially at this point, pretty much all the dificulty in these games revolves around enemies having janky nonsense attacks that punish you for reacting in an intuitive way. It's just a bunch of 'Gotcha!' moments. Compare the way things fight in Elden Ring with the way they fight in Monster Hunter- even though both games have low health totals for the player, stamina systems, and punishing scenarios like getting stunlocked to death or caught in meaties you can't roll out of, Monster Hunter has a much better difficulty curve because it doesn't do retarded shit like launch a flying tackle that pauses for 14 frames once it gets within 4 feet of the player to bait out a dodge.

Just compare it vs Demon Souls or Dark Souls 1 and it's enough. FormSoft is just buying into the retarded dodge roll meme and actually think those are good design.

 

[Silverfish]

FormSoft is just buying into the retarded dodge roll meme and actually think those are good design.

Even that would be fine, except that, post-DS2, rolling has been a universal thing rather than something to build around. It would actually be kind of cool if, when dealing with the delayed strikes or long combos of more recent games, you had that insanely useful and consistent adaptability dodge to fall back on.

 

[Perkel]

If you just throw yourself at the boss 10-20 times you will more or less win regardless of skill.

This is on the same level as people who say "Dark Souls isn't hard, you just memorize every enemy location and boss attack and then you win."

Play Monster Hunter World get to top end monsters in Iceborne and you will understand what i meant.

Like I said in Dark Souls bosses have so little life that you can swap skill for luck. Sometimes bosses don't even have time to get into their X form they can die so fast with right weapon and good luck.

On other hand your fight with monster in monster hunter is taking 20-30 minutes and that monster can just one shot you if you are not skilled enough to read his moves etc. Luck can give you edge a time or two but not for full 20 minutes.

Obviously Souls games have their niche and I wouldn't want them to transform into MH game but acknowledging simple truth that luck does matter a lot in them is just normal thing to do.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

You guys crack me up. You're like the brainiac cartoon character who picks up a pool cue for the first time and sinks every shot because "it's just simple geometry." Talking and doing are two different things (Minnesota Fats would roll you so hard.)

Or people say certifications don't mean anything, because anyone can study and pass a test. Which is totally true, but not everyone does, do they?

The best golf pros have a win rate of 20-30%, because golf is sometimes really random. But that doesn't mean skill isn't important.

In any case, I watched my wife try Iudex Gundyr for the better part of an afternoon without beating it, and she's not even that inexperienced with action titles (okay, Zelda games.) Meanwhile you have speedrunners beating these games consistently with donkey kong bongos or DDR pads so no, I don't agree they are luck based games.

Speaking of MHW, a game I also love (charge blade main), it's definitely an easier game than any soulsborne. The fact you can die twice in the fight, or resupply your ample health pool, unlimited healing from your cat, or just crouch and whack a flower and get instant full health all make it a much more forgiving game. (Not to mention there is no way to permanently lose progress.) And while making you chase down the monster and repeat the fight five times certainly might preclude lucky wins, things like Nergigantes dive bomb attack are well within the BS window. (Yes it is easy to dodge when you know how, but the hitbox is pure magic). Nerg is a good example because he has several attacks that bait you into a fast reaction and punish, while the right move is actually to lay flat on the ground and do nothing. this magically allows you to eat the full attack with no damage because MH has very wacky ideas of i-frames (don't get me started on superman dodging). Still this is stuff you're really not going to figure out without a lot of trial and error, and it's far from intuitive. The top tier iceborne monsters require you to grind absurd amounts for endgame gear/gems/etc before you can really attempt them which gatekeeps anyone who doesn't feel like repeating the bonus boss dozens of times, which I think is BS. If MH found a way to reward a greater variety of endgame activities I'd think the post-story would be much more enjoyable, but that's a different debate.

Still, I don't know what planet you're living on where fighting a boss 20+ times to beat it doesn't constitute skill. Humans naturally get better at everything the more they do it, even if some have greater potential than others. A major league pitcher still warms up in the bullpen every game; skilled bartenders practice their pours every shift. Acting like skill is a fixed and finite quality is baffling nonsense.